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#2552311 - 06/27/16 02:50 AM Walking, counting and execution of swing time.
Nahum Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/27/14
Posts: 1527
Loc: Israel
As we all know (I hope!), walking rhythm it is fundamentally different from knocking of the metronome at the same pace. How much I had to play with American musicians, and so many times have heard at the first rehearsal reproaches to drummer because of his walking time ( they are working probably more than any other with a metronome ) .However, looking at the diagram of the stepper motion http://freejazzinstitute.com/uploads/20160626225846_jazzman1945.jpg , arises a following question : in which of the five step stages is happening 1st beat pronunciation and its execution ? In any case, it is clear that this point is not rigidly attached to a specific moment and may vary within certain limits, also between down- and off-beats .

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#2552317 - 06/27/16 03:35 AM Re: Walking, counting and execution of swing time. [Re: Nahum]
Groove On Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/20/15
Posts: 536
The rhythmic pulse In a moving human body is very much an internal function of weight transfer and isn't necessarily connected to the dancers steps. So to a dancer, any of those foot positions could be the 1 beat. Just depends on how the dancer interprets the music.

The main thing to consider in dance is that it's not the steps that help you stay in time, it's the Weight Transfer from one side of the body, this is what creates rhythm in the body. And its generally it is what dancers use to measure and sub-divide time. Additionally, weight transfers can give you rhythm without needing to step!!!

You've seen babies do this naturally where they have both feet on the ground and start bobbing up and down to the rhythm of the music or sounds they hear. They are catching and feeling the timing and rhythm with the weight transfer in their body. Music is made up of melody, harmony, and rhythm - but like the song says - Rhythm is a dancer. ha

Re: walking - the important measurement of rhythmic in walking is when you first begin transferring your weight to throw your body off balance, ending with the next neutral position where the body catches the weight - with a final step. From beginning to end this gives you 1 "dancers beat", and with full control of the weight transfer throughout the "beat" you can sub-divide the beat to a very fine degree.
_________________________
Acoustic Upright + Roland FP-30
The question is, am I making music or just playing a bunch of notes?

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#2552319 - 06/27/16 03:47 AM Re: Walking, counting and execution of swing time. [Re: Groove On]
Nahum Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/27/14
Posts: 1527
Loc: Israel
Originally Posted By Groove On
In a moving the body the "metronome" is very much an internal function of weight transfer and isn't necessarily connected to the dancers steps.
You probably mean the rhythmic pulse. Metronome does nothing else but to measure as much as possible equal time intervals, no less and no more. The rhythm he doesn't make .The action of metronome can be determined more like rhythmic making no headway.


Edited by Nahum (06/27/16 04:02 AM)

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#2552320 - 06/27/16 03:52 AM Re: Walking, counting and execution of swing time. [Re: Nahum]
Groove On Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/20/15
Posts: 536
Originally Posted By Nahum
Originally Posted By Groove On
In a moving the body the "metronome" is very much an internal function of weight transfer and isn't necessarily connected to the dancers steps.
You probably mean the rhythmic pulse. Metronome does nothing else but to measure as much as possible equal time intervals, no less and no more. The rhythm he doesn't make .

Yes "rhythmic pulse" is a much better term to use. I edited my initial post to better reflect that.
_________________________
Acoustic Upright + Roland FP-30
The question is, am I making music or just playing a bunch of notes?

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#2552344 - 06/27/16 08:15 AM Re: Walking, counting and execution of swing time. [Re: Nahum]
TimR Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/17/04
Posts: 3696
Loc: Virginia, USA
I agree with Groove but I'll be more specific.

I think (don't claim to know for sure) that the rhythmic pulse is side to side, while the walking step is front and back.

I don't think you can maintain rhythmic pulse internally without some body movement though it might be small.

The side to side movement usually also involves some rotation. I don't know how important that is. It might even be the only important thing, and side to side weight shift just the result.

And one more complication, we move our head to let our ears detect a multipath reflected soundfield. That might be meaningless in a studio or amplified gig but is very important in a live acoustic space like a church or cathedral.
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#2552366 - 06/27/16 10:18 AM Re: Walking, counting and execution of swing time. [Re: TimR]
Nahum Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/27/14
Posts: 1527
Loc: Israel
Originally Posted By TimR
I agree with Groove but I'll be more specific.

I think (don't claim to know for sure) that the rhythmic pulse is side to side, while the walking step is front and back.

I don't think you can maintain rhythmic pulse internally without some body movement though it might be small.

The side to side movement usually also involves some rotation. I don't know how important that is. It might even be the only important thing, and side to side weight shift just the result.

And one more complication, we move our head to let our ears detect a multipath reflected soundfield. That might be meaningless in a studio or amplified gig but is very important in a live acoustic space like a church or cathedral.
If synthesize all the factors, in the end it turns out the symbol of perpetual motion - a circle, or a snake which swallows its own tail. By the way, exactly so showed the groove with hand perhaps most swingy bassist in jazz history Ray Brown - by a circle.My question was about timing, and I haven't received an answer still.

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#2552401 - 06/27/16 11:48 AM Re: Walking, counting and execution of swing time. [Re: Nahum]
TimR Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/17/04
Posts: 3696
Loc: Virginia, USA
I will go for a walk on my lunch break and see if I notice.

I typically have a solid internal pulse.
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#2552410 - 06/27/16 12:14 PM Re: Walking, counting and execution of swing time. [Re: Nahum]
TimR Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/17/04
Posts: 3696
Loc: Virginia, USA
Okay, here is my guess.

I did some walking and singing.

Beat 1 is very close to your 3rd foot picture, but it is not based on the exact foot position.

As weight comes down on the foot, there is a muscular reflex that contracts and tightens leg muscles to support the weight. Beat One is where that contraction takes place. If the leg is already quite tense, like maybe in a parade, formation, marching band, drill team, Beat One is earlier and can be close to heel strike, but in a more relaxed walk it is later, near where the weight lands on the ball of the foot.

That is what happens to me, maybe to nobody else.
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#2552419 - 06/27/16 12:39 PM Re: Walking, counting and execution of swing time. [Re: TimR]
Nahum Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/27/14
Posts: 1527
Loc: Israel
Originally Posted By TimR
I will go for a walk on my lunch break and see if I notice.

I typically have a solid internal pulse.
Bravo, you're doing exactly what is necessary - disbelieve to my words!
To listen to difference between the mechanical metronome and rhythmic tendencies :
https://yadi.sk/d/TQZWCa2jsq2Wn


Edited by Nahum (06/27/16 01:00 PM)

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#2553035 - 06/30/16 12:12 AM Re: Walking, counting and execution of swing time. [Re: TimR]
Groove On Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/20/15
Posts: 536
Originally Posted By TimR
Okay, here is my guess.

I did some walking and singing.

Beat 1 is very close to your 3rd foot picture, but it is not based on the exact foot position.
Would be interesting to see what differences you find if you tried it walking backwards. Or walking up and then down some steps. Or marching in place.
_________________________
Acoustic Upright + Roland FP-30
The question is, am I making music or just playing a bunch of notes?

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#2553055 - 06/30/16 03:47 AM Re: Walking, counting and execution of swing time. [Re: Groove On]
Nahum Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/27/14
Posts: 1527
Loc: Israel
Originally Posted By Groove On
]ould be interesting to see what differences you find if you tried it walking backwards. Or walking up and then down some steps. Or marching in place.
Well, it is quite clear: walking reversal creates unsure rhythm ;walking down - to accelerate. Trampling ( not Trumpling!) on the spot - like the Prussian step; rhythmically and heavy .
Rhythm execution is based entirely on the expostulation of trends (like all our life). Unfortunately the usual classic teacher is not always explains this to student; so it was with me. Only by starting to play bebop, I discovered the stages back and forth in the same phrases .

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#2553061 - 06/30/16 05:34 AM Re: Walking, counting and execution of swing time. [Re: Nahum]
Rerun Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/28/07
Posts: 1084
Loc: Louisiana
Originally Posted By Nahum
As we all know (I hope!), walking rhythm it is fundamentally different from knocking of the metronome at the same pace. How much I had to play with American musicians, and so many times have heard at the first rehearsal reproaches to drummer because of his walking time ( they are working probably more than any other with a metronome ) .However, looking at the diagram of the stepper motion http://freejazzinstitute.com/uploads/20160626225846_jazzman1945.jpg , arises a following question : in which of the five step stages is happening 1st beat pronunciation and its execution ? In any case, it is clear that this point is not rigidly attached to a specific moment and may vary within certain limits, also between down- and off-beats .



What part of the step are you coming up with this one:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IH7JivVFhlY
_________________________
Rerun

"Seat of the pants piano player" DMD







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#2553090 - 06/30/16 09:49 AM Re: Walking, counting and execution of swing time. [Re: Rerun]
jotur Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/16/06
Posts: 6324
Loc: Santa Fe, NM
Originally Posted By Rerun
What part of the step are you coming up with this one:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IH7JivVFhlY


smile
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Cathy

Practice like you are the worst; play like you are the best - anonymous

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#2553098 - 06/30/16 10:40 AM Re: Walking, counting and execution of swing time. [Re: jotur]
Rerun Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/28/07
Posts: 1084
Loc: Louisiana


Heh, heh, heh ... I'm hitting the strong beat on that final pic of the feet, not on the heel. Didn't expect that, but I guess anything's possible with Carl Sonny on the bench. grin


Edited by Rerun (06/30/16 10:41 AM)
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Rerun

"Seat of the pants piano player" DMD







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#2553155 - 06/30/16 01:04 PM Re: Walking, counting and execution of swing time. [Re: Nahum]
LXXXVIIIdentes Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/04/14
Posts: 120
I am not professional, but study kinesiology, especially gait.

Walking is a basic rhythm, but the two "beats" of a human walking on alternate feet is very hard to perform exactly evenly. Most of us vary anatomically in our right and left sides - we are not perfectly symmetrical. So our bodies have to make thousands of adjustments that we do not detect consciously. in order for us to walk with a consistent stride length and beat. Some people strike more with the heel, others the ball of the foot, it's not totally predictable what works for a particular individual. Probably the most symmetrical people find it easiest to walk consistently. (Limping provides another type of beat, not a steady 1-2.)

I think for humans the sensation of the actual beat occurs when the weight is fully centered and lowest over each foot while walking. If you explore the topic, you will discover not only are the muscles and nerves making minute adjustments; the bones are shifting too. At the point of full support of weight of a leg vertically under the body, the bones, especially the intricate ankle bones, "lock" into position as if they were one bone. I think that is when we feel the beat.

The bones then "unlock" to allow us to keep moving by swinging the leg backward and forward. (Think of the problem - how can a table move? You have to lift at least one leg or it remains stationary. Animals have evolved to allow the leg joints to lengthen and shorten to achieve movement. The joints usually have to rotate as well, since animals are three dimensional and move in more than one direction. If you ever examine extremely slow motion film, you will find the motions of walking incredibly intricate. Everything revolves around the shifting of weight required for the center of gravity/balance for a particular body.)

I think that sensation of full weight on a limb is the "downbeat" sensation.

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