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Joined: Apr 2007
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Thank you for your extensive explanation Morodiene. What you seem to be talking about this time is the straight line of forearm and hand, i.e. not to have a twist at the wrist, and I also understand what you are saying about leaning. I think we were all agreeing about that part. In your original post you were writing about the hands being perpendicular to the keys, and that is what made me uncomfortable. In regards to the leaning etc. in scales (the person in your video isn't moving that far from center) this is gotten into in detail by Piano-Ologist, and this happens to be something I am working on right now. I have time-stamped it to start at the point where he talks about what you are mentioning: https://youtu.be/TdDiEEHiuTQ?t=91Where he says "I'm not just rotating my arm like this" - that would give the undesireable thing you are talking about. His solution then is to lead with his arm while also leaning with the body. The hand angle is not perpendicular, however - the slant he has allows the thumb to pass under more easily. In my previous post I added a link to Rubinstein. I've made a screen shot. Here is the link: https://www.dropbox.com/s/xosmceb0r34mj7n/angles%201.jpg?dl=0Rubinstein's hand and arm are in straight alignment like you describe in this last post of yours. However, the hand and arm are definitely not perpendicular to the keyboard. This is very important to me, because I had a tendency to keep my hand perpendicular to the keyboard, and did not realize that I had the freedom to adopt all kinds of angles. That is why I think it is important to know we have that freedom, and not think that we must keep the hand perpendicular (which I understand might already be an adult tendency). If you do try to always keep it perpendicular, then you might kink at the wrist, or do freaky things in the shoulder area (I did both). Are we on the same page? As I understand it, the main thing is the aligned arm - which however we don't keep rigidly aligned - there is freedom of movement everywhere always. I probably shouldn't have said anything, as I've opened up a can of worms that has derailed this thread. Whenever you speak of technique, it does have to apply to the piece and the person. Rach doesn't have to keep perpendicular - as I mention in my post, there are exceptions. If you have long thumbs, you can get away with not doing this, and it depends on the music being played. So sorry for the confusion.
private piano/voice teacher FT
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The basic principle behind fingering is this: 2nds should be played with adjacent fingers, while 3rds should .... Hmmm -- my habit is to hit white key seconds both with the same finger. Why would that be a bad idea? My fingers are short and wide, even the 5's are plenty strong enough for that. This is an exception: you would only do this if necessary (like with some larger chords in Debussy or Rach). But usually you would want those two fingers to also be able to play those two notes consecutively, too (as in a scale), so you generally don't do the two notes with the thumb. Ah, so two notes with one digit is perhaps more of a pop/jazz thing, where simultaneous seconds are more commonly used....
-- J.S. Knabe Grand # 10927 Yamaha CP33 Kawai FS690
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Morodiene, we should not throw the baby out with the bath water. You wrote some good general principles and you were writing about scales at that point. I supported what you were saying by adding the link to PianoOlogist where he teaches about playing larger scales where this leaning etc. is needed. It's a visual to go with your writing. My caution originally was when you had written about the arm "always" being perpendicular to the keyboard. I was sure you meant perpendicular as roughly so, and only in some situations - but mostly when doing simpler music where you're in mid-piano range with no cross-overs and such. The thing is that I'm aware, having been an older beginner myself, that a student can take things literally, quite seriously, and be diligent about things they read. I got in trouble a couple of times myself during my early violin time because I took advice literally. When in front of a teacher, the teacher might catch it and say "I didn't mean that much or all the time "! In this medium we don't get to see what people do with what we write. Your general principles are good and I thank you on everyone's behalf for writing them out.
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Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 17,391
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
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Posts: 17,391 |
Morodiene, we should not throw the baby out with the bath water. You wrote some good general principles and you were writing about scales at that point. I supported what you were saying by adding the link to PianoOlogist where he teaches about playing larger scales where this leaning etc. is needed. It's a visual to go with your writing. My caution originally was when you had written about the arm "always" being perpendicular to the keyboard. I was sure you meant perpendicular as roughly so, and only in some situations - but mostly when doing simpler music where you're in mid-piano range with no cross-overs and such. The thing is that I'm aware, having been an older beginner myself, that a student can take things literally, quite seriously, and be diligent about things they read. I got in trouble a couple of times myself during my early violin time because I took advice literally. When in front of a teacher, the teacher might catch it and say "I didn't mean that much or all the time "! In this medium we don't get to see what people do with what we write. Your general principles are good and I thank you on everyone's behalf for writing them out. Here is the context of what I said originally:
+1. This is also true for fingering other 7th chords. 1-2-3-5 whenever possible, except when you have the root and 7th next to each other, in which case you have fingers 2 or 4 available.
The basic principle behind fingering is this: 2nds should be played with adjacent fingers, while 3rds should generally be played with skipping a finger: 1-3, 2-4, 3-5, 4ths should be played skipping two fingers: 1-4, 2-5, and 5ths or larger should be played 1-5. This allows for the most relaxed hand shape.
There will be many exceptions to this, and that's OK, but whenever possible, one should default to this type of fingering to allow the hand to relax. If one chooses to finger with stretching all the time, they will get fatigued in a piece which could cause damage.
As Heather states, be careful to not twist the wrist so your finger 5 can hit the F#. Your arm should remain perpendicular to the keys, so slide up the keys toward the fallboard to avoid twisting. Also, depends on where you are on the keyboard, you may need to lean your entire body to avoid the twisting.
I never said "always", I said "should" as in "this is the goal". Furthermore, I was talking specifically about playing a chord where a shorter finger needs to play on a black key, where twisting the wrist can occur. This somehow then turned into me saying always, when I was speaking about basic principles - to which there are many exceptions which I have stated at least 3 times now. I'm frustrated because I don't think what I originally said was unclear, and I don't know why people in this thread decided to take it so far out of context. Now I've posted more which does not have to do with the original question, but it is also a basic principle to which - here's the 4th time - there are exceptions based on the music being played, and also on the person's individual physiology. I feel like a broken record. Let's end this please.
private piano/voice teacher FT
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Hmmm -- my habit is to hit white key seconds both with the same finger. Why would that be a bad idea? Because pressing chord on the keyboard has only 25% of the business, and rest - to establish a balance between the four voices. Playing two sounds with one finger excludes this possibility. Ah, so two notes with one digit is perhaps more of a pop/jazz thing, where simultaneous seconds are more commonly used....
This is part of the execution of clusters, common in music of twentieth century, and even without rock or jazz.
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