Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Adult Beginners Forum Question about time signatures

Okay, so i've looked at quite a few youtube videos explaining time signatures and i think i've grasped it quite well, however i do have one question still that i couldn't really find the answer to. So here it is:

Say for example, the time signature is 4/4, from what i understand, this means that the first 4 (the top number) is the number of beats per bar, and the second 4 (the bottom number) represents how long the beat should be held for, in this case, each note is a quarter note, (if i'm already wrong which i hope i'm not, please correct me lol). And so this would sound like 1,2,3,4 1,2,3,4 etc etc. Now with a 2/4 time signature i assume it would go like 1,2 1,2 1,2 etc. But i fail to see how this is different to the 4/4, as in of course the number of beats per BAR is different, but would this actually SOUND different? as surely two bars in 2/4 would sound identical to one bar in 4/4? I would do a TL;DR but i really can't shorten this anymore than i already have. Any help from someone who knows what they're talking about would he HUGELY appreciated.

You should play 4/4 as STRONG weak Medium weak. There is a natural accent on the first beat and a slightly weaker accent on the third beat. 2/4 goes STRONG weak STRONG weak. It feels more like there are only two beats. Think of a march where count one-two-one-two. The difference is subtle and it's something you should feel rather than try to explicitly play it like that.

Ah right i didn't realise there was an emphasis on different beats, that helps a lot dude thanks man

I did not realize this either but upon asking instructor was told that Europe and England stress this concept but not so in America.

To your original question 4/4 means 4 beats per bar and it is the quarter note that gets the/one beat or in other words, eighth note gets half a beat, half note gets 2 beats, whole note gets all 4 beats. Compare to 6/8 time wherein the eighth note gets the beat, 6 per bar. In the example you gave, if the bar is written 4/4 with 4 quarter notes, yes, it sounds like 1and 2and 3and 4and ( you play 4 notes in the bar each lasting 1 beat) , if written 4/4 with 8 eighth notes it is trickier to type text for how it sounds but there will be 8 notes played, such as " 1 " "and" " 2 " " and" " 3" "and" "4" "and"
That's 8 eighth notes, each lasting half a beat and each depicted inside quotations.


1and 2 and 3 and 4and - is 4/4 with 1 quarter note followed by four eighth notes followed by a quarter note.

Found a composing app called Finale. One starts out by declaring a time signature. Once that has been established, one just drags notes onto the clef. Thing was, it wouldn't let you cheat, as far as a note's time value was concerned. I learn much from this, simply by experimenting/messing with it. This gets more valuable, when getting into dotted notes, etc.

A7x, you were partly correct with your first impression, and what you have so far is a partial picture in that there are a number of sides to this. At least one theory book put 4/4 and 2/4 in the same category as "duple" time, and 3/4 as "triple" time - but let's explore each thing one at a time. 6/8 has been mentioned: this should be considered separately.


The bottom number tells you which note value gets the beat. Note values are proportional to each other. You can write the same music as 4/4 or 4/8 time and the music would sound the same. Example: these two lines of music sound identical:

In the first, there are 4 beats in a bar, and the quarter note gets the beat. So as you count out the measure as 1 - 2 - 3 - 4, each number is one beat. The half note is held twice as long as the quarter note because note value is proportional so the half note is held for (1-2). The whole note in m. 2 is held for four beats. --- In the 2nd, again there are 4 beats in a bar, but this time the eighth note gets the beat. This time I used a quarter note as the first note, because it is held twice as long as an eighth note, so it is held for (1-2), and this time in m. 2, it's a half note which is held for all 4 beats. Proportionally it all works out the same.

How fast you play depends on tempo. I've marked it two ways: andante and (note value)=76. Andante means "walking speed" and gives you a feel for the timing; a leisurely amble; and on the metronome is marked as 76 - 108 b.p.m. (beats per minute). (note value) = 76 means that the note which gets the beat (bottom note) has a timing value of 76 b.p.m. If you set your metronome to 76, each click is the distance of one quarter note to the next quarter note for 4/4; and one eighth note to the next eighth note for 4/8.
---------
There are several aspects to this involving time.
1. Note value - your whole note, half note, quarter note, eighth note etc. This simply gives you proportion, each in this list being "twice as fast" as the preceding one: or ("two half notes in every whole note: four quarter notes in every whole note etc. - an proportional relationship that's in there). In and of themselves, they are like the alphabet. "T" doesn't mean anything, other than a sound. But T in CAT gives you the final sound in the word, and in conjunction with the other letters you hear the sound of the word "cat" and picture a feline.
2. Time signature - This defines how many beats there are in a bar and which note value defines the beat. We're not being musical yet. As long as you hold your half note twice as long as you hold your quarter note, doing the right 1-2-3-4 counting, you've done basic justice to the time signature. Important: note value and beat are not the same thing. "Beat" is the basic 1-2-3-4 in counting, and is used by non-musicians when they talk of the "beat of the music" which in dance music and pop music may be insistently stressed by the drummer. It's what you nod your head to. Unfortunately beginner music often stays with */4 time, and no */8 or */2 time, so students associate the quarter note with the beat.
3. Rhythm - Two aspects of this. There is the purely mathematical thing we can work out via the note values. In the example that I wrote out, there is a kind of rhythm that goes Ta-a tata Ta-a-a-a that you might feel if you chant out the rhythm of those 3 oops 4 notes while tapping out the beat. That's very fundamental. b) There is an interplay between beat, note values, and what is commonly done in time signatures. This goes with what previous people wrote:

So, commonly the "strong weak middle weak" does indeed exist in 4/4 time: ONE two Three four; 3/4 time is commonly "strong weak weak" ONE two three - think of an old fashioned waltz. Composers will play around with this so that whatever they intend comes across, but to begin with the "strong weak middle weak" is a good starting place. ... As you work with your note values, those notes will fall on the strong, weak, or middle, or fall between them. That interplay is what makes well written music come alive. For now, however, you simply need to get a grasp of the basics.

Time signatures as we have had them for several hundred years are related to dance music. The dancers need and underlying rhythm. When people play together an underlying rhythm also helps them stay together. The "strong weak weak" of a waltz pushes the music and thus the dancers along.
-------------
A comment about practising: When you start, go as slowly as you need, rather than trying for the final tempo of the piece. Chunk the music in small sections, take it apart, work out elements and put them back together again. If the tempo is 120, don't try to play it at 120. You first want to get your relative note values together and if your 1-2-3-4 counting sounds like a drugged turtle, that is perfect.

That information cannot be correct. Music is music everywhere. It could be that certain schools or method books or systems or teachers stress one thing or another, but the realities of music are the same everywhere. I'm in Canada, i.e. North America, and two of the teachers I have studied with are from the US, i.e. "America", and I learned this.

It would be better to leave out 6/8 for now, since this is usually compound time, but sine it's been mentioned it should probably be clarified.
The signatures 6/8, 9/8, 12/8 --- all of them having a top note which is a multiple of three --- is usually compound time. Here each beat consists of triplets. 6/8 = (1-2-3)(4-5-6) = 2 beats where each eighth note makes up 1/3 of the beat. 9/8 = (1-2-3)(4-5-6)(7-8-9) = 3 beats. Here you will see a dotted quarter note expressing a note held for the full beat since dotted quarter = three eighth notes. Compound time tends to have a smooth rolling non-angular type of feel because the three-ness seems to chisel away at the angularity of multiples of two - I once read the imagery of a rolling wheel.

I think what you are thinking of is what I illustrated in my longer post: 4/4 vs. 4/8; 3/4 vs. 3/8 etc.

The information from instructor was not given in the context of "correct" per se. It was moreso friendly, casual conversation that resulted from my inquiry that itself followed from my having observed over weeks of reading various articles and commentary in print as well as web sites; that some people talk about basic piano theory with focus ie. the aforementioned stress, on accent being integral to playing the beats in a given time signature whereas other people do not focus or even mention the two in the same breath. I had also voiced observation of some of the foreign albeit related lingo I had seen discussed - quaver, semiquaver, crothchet, beamed, etc - and this of course led our conversation to the context of basic understanding of differing conventions used there versus here. We kept this conversation simple, basic, and did not stray into discussion of complex, confusing or philosophical details.

Of course music is global and while it certainly may lead to lively, possibly endless discussion, diagrams, advice giving and debate, there does not, yet, seem to be universally agreed upon correct application of theory and the attendant jargon.

On behalf of the OP, the visible comparison of numbers 4/4 & 3/8 , as intended, shows a simple comparison relevant to basic understanding of the top number and bottom numbers in two common time signatures.

Cheers

Quavers vs. eighth notes are not the same thing. That's just a naming convention, like D-sharp vs. dis, major/minor vs. dur/moll, etc. Metric accents on the other hand are at the very core of music and I can hardly imagine anyone playing anything musically without feeling the accents. Maybe it has just been your teacher's experience and s/he over-generalized that to America vs. Europe.

I may not have expressed myself well. I meant to say that it is not true that the idea of emphasized beats is a thing taught in Europe but not "America". I am also not being philosophical but practical and real. The OP is just starting out and we have to be careful not to confuse him/her because anything we say may appear philosophical.

Sorting out what you said.

Yes, terminology can be different in different places, even in the English speaking world. Thus in Britain and I think Australia and New Zealand they use "crotchet", "semiquaver" etc. whereas in the US and Canada we us the fractions "quarter, sixteenth" etc. A kind of information convention seems to have sprung up where we seem to primarily use "American" terms. The "parallel key" described in the US is called "tonic key" in both Canada and the UK, for example.

But when it comes to concepts, these describe what happens in music, and what happens in music does not change geographically. Music is a universal language. So in this particular example, the "strong weak weak" of 3/4 time in a waltz exists everywhere, because the waltz is played everywhere. Different schools or teachers anywhere might choose to teach or emphasize this or that - this is not geographic but teaching choices. When this "strong weak weak" or "strong weak middle weak" (4/4) changes, then it has to do with eras, composers, genres of music etc. as your studies (and mine) advance.

The only visible comparison is the one that I put down, so that is what you mean. Careful, it's 4/8, not 3/8. Something like that can be confusing when someone is at the very beginning. What it is intended to show is what I wrote out above it. Both examples reflect exactly the same music played in exactly the same way, and I explained why. (I happen to have two copies of Fuer Elise bought years ago where the editors of one version did that to make the music appear "less scary" because apparently beams and double beams "scare amateurs" )

Agreed, Quavers vs eighth notes not the same but are part of related jargon conventions. Otherwise not sure why or how you confused the two. Personally, I do not venture to say how anyone else imagines playing music, the possibilities are so many and varied it could be easily misinterpreted as over-generalized to say with or without strong weak accent is the only way deemed correct. I do venture to say that in my young journey as an adult beginner, classic waltzes have become one sound on a short list of song sounds that I greatly enjoy hearing, learning and playing, however, discussion of accenting within 3/4 or other meters may be a bit OT from a basic question on 4/4.

When A7x asked - .... i do have one question still that i couldn't really find the answer to. .... Say for example, the time signature is 4/4, from what i understand, this means that the first 4 (the top number) is the number of beats per bar, and the second 4 (the bottom number) represents how long the beat should be held for ..... - it seemed to me they were seeking help on understanding basic 4/4 time signature, not accents that may be applied when playing within a given time signature. It also seemed they may have mistaken that 4/4 timing only uses quarter notes, ergo my effort to explain a little about other note values like eighth notes that are available to be played within 4/4 structure. Be this as it may, A7x, I hope you are a little more clear on 4/4 time signature 🙂🎶. If so, perhaps you are ready to also segue into the core of music, waltzes, accents and such.

Best regards to all.

The discussion about accents has been in the service of answering A7x's core question:

Thanks keystring...helped me to understand those 6/8, 9/8 time signature better..

I'm glad if anything I wrote was helpful. We never know, so thanks.

Btw, the first time I consciously ran into 6/8 was as an adult violin student with the Saint Saens Swan. I think my teacher assumed I knew a whole lot of things which I didn't. I formed this image of a swan kicking its legs underwater twice every measure, and other imagery that sort of helped me along. It would have been useful to understand 6/8 from the get-go, i.e. 2 beats per measure, rather than having to feel my way through. I started studying theory near the end of that period and a lot of it was an eye opener.

keystring, I really appreciate the generosity with which you share your time and knowledge with us. Your posts are consistently thoughtful and very helpful.

I am just past my first anniversary of self-taught piano, and, have encountered some 6/8 and even some 9/8 key signatures without the benefit of having read your quoted material above. I am curious about how the emphasis should be applied in those signatures that are multiples of three.

For instance, in a 6/8, I imagine three possibilities:

1. (ONE two three)(four five six); or,

2. (ONE two three)(four five six); or,

3. (ONE two three)(FOUR five six).

Are there conventions or some knowledge that would be helpful to guide us through these choices?

I have the same questions about 9/8 as well.

9/8 is _usually_ (in European classical music) broken down into three triplets:

ONE two three FOUR five six SEVEN eight nine ( = 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 ).

But there are other possibilities, and they show up from time to time (no pun intended), especially in other cultures:

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9

is Middle Eastern, for example.

@Ralph: The second choice is the most natural. But don't overthink it. Just feel it.

Haha, I was preparing for a theory exam with the violin teacher I had back then by doing a practice exam with him. There was a grouping of notes which I immediately wrote out as 9/8 and compound. He had me listen to it, and it was actually odd meter - 5 + 4 which gives you a long and short beat. I was quite miffed that my simple formulaic world had suddenly fallen apart.

But this is probably too much for the beginning. The 6/8, 9/8, 12/8 as multiples of 3 are probably the most common ones we'll encounter in "regular" music.