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Nothing irks me more than unfingered scores. Yes, I can generate fingerings from scratch. It drains me. In fact, I can think of every cockamamie way to do anything that may or may not work up to tempo. So, I like a little guidance (even if I end up changing 90% of it). But, why no fingerings? This blog entry by Henle is revealing. http://bit.ly/2aoAQIrOK, Debussy was dying and didn't want to waste time fingering his Etudes. Otherwise, is reticence just lazy? Or cowardly (Mr. Famous-Pianist Potential Fingerer doesn't want crticism of his efforts)? Or stingy (I had to work it out, myself, and so shall you--which I have always thought was Kirkpatrick's real attitude for his fingerless Scarlatti edition for Schirmer)? What do you think? And what do you think of fingered editions, in general?
WhoDwaldi Howard (by Kawai) 5' 10"
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In standard repertoire, I would almost always prefer an edition with little or no fingering.
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I think it depends on the level of the pianist and difficulty of the piece. IMHO the overwhelming majority of pianists are greatly helped and can save a lot of time with a well fingered edition. Extremely advanced pianists may not need or have to use a lot of extra time finding their own fingerings.
OTOH Godowsky included extensive fingerings in his editions of his own pieces that can often be played by only the most advanced pianists. Many great pianists also produced fingered editions of works that only very advanced pianists can play, so I think some pianists, even the most advanced, must have found these useful.
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In standard repertoire, I would almost always prefer an edition with little or no fingering. Can you explain a little more why you feel this way?
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I prefer fingered editions. And I have no idealistic preference for Urtext, unlike some people here (I've often enough disregarded my own detailed markings on my own compositions, when playing them - following in the hallowed footsteps of Sergei Vasilievich et al ). In fact, I don't care what edition I use, as long as the paper is good quality, the print is clear, the page-turns are in logical places, the score stays flat without me having to break the spine, and there are no mistakes (and any mistakes by the composer are corrected - I don't want the corrections indicated in a footnote). Though some of the fingerings I've encountered in some well-known editions are totally impracticable (loaded with finger switches and the like - even when the pedal is used) - obviously the 'fingerer' never tried to play the music at anything faster than Adagio - they're generally still helpful and saves me time. I read through a lot of music for fun, without any thought of learning them properly, so indicated fingerings speed up sight-reading (and usually stop my fingers tying themselves up into knots).
If music be the food of love, play on!
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As far as my own works are concerned if I dare put my own fingering in, you'd kill yourself (or me). I can reach an 11th with rather ease, along with notes between, which means that I have quite large hands (and some of my works show that quite evidently). Adding a fingering that would suite me, would probably take away many pianists wanting to play my music... So... It's not about being lazy. In fact I've "hired" a number of people to put fingerings on my music (with an exchange of a couple of free copies! ).
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In urtext editions, the lack of fingering has nothing to do with laziness or cowardice. Urtext means the edition is based on an original or the earliest version of a text. If there are no fingerings it is because the composer assumed that the music was going to be played by a professional musician who did not need fingerings added. Fingering added to urtext by editors is stated as such by the publisher. When music began to be mass published for the amateur public, adding fingering was a way of making it accessible. Often music was simplified for the same reason.
I prefer the clarity and quality of urtext. I also appreciate the explanatory notes and the minimal fingering suggestions. I can figure out most fingering myself, but occasionally get my fingers in a knot and need some help here and there. Densely fingered music is, to me, annoying.
Note to Nikolas - how blessed you are to have such large hands! My small hands really irritate me because I have to settle for an uncomfortable 9th. On the other hand, I have no trouble playing between the black keys. Do you?
Best regards,
Deborah
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Densely fingered music is, to me, annoying. I agree. Some fingering that is printed is good, some so-so, and some it seems as tho someone created the fingering by throwing darts at a spinning number wheel. If not an exact fit for my hand size and technique ability and built-in preference, it is an annoyance...If not covered up, I have to process the numbers while playing, a problem that can cause mistakes. If covered up, it is a problem especially with Urtext, which is precious. I have always been able to figure out fingering, maybe because of many memories of my wonderful Russian-trained piano teacher sitting by my side, working out the fingering together with me. Bottom line, if scores were available either way, I would always buy the non-fingered version.
Blues and Boogie-Woogie piano teacher.
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AHA!! Some must be distracted by fingerings they do not actually do. Interesting.
Keep it coming, then I'll tell you how y'all are right and wrong (that's a joke). 😀
WhoDwaldi Howard (by Kawai) 5' 10"
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Densely fingered music is, to me, annoying. Some fingering that is printed is good, some so-so, and some it seems as tho someone created the fingering by throwing darts at a spinning number wheel. Don't you think some of the fingering is better than you would have figured out by yourself? I have always been able to figure out fingering, maybe because of many memories of my wonderful Russian-trained piano teacher sitting by my side, working out the fingering together with me. This seems to say that at one point you couldn't figure out good fingering by yourself.
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Don't you think some of the fingering is better than you would have figured out by yourself?
Sure...that possibility does exist, but I usually can play just fine with my fingering. Also, when I see printed fingering that works it is very often what I would easily figure out myself, or quite close to it. I have always been able to figure out fingering, maybe because of many memories of my wonderful Russian-trained piano teacher sitting by my side, working out the fingering together with me. This seems to say that at one point you couldn't figure out good fingering by yourself. Absolutely...just like at one point I could not play the piano! How to finger music so it works for me is one of the things my piano teacher spent a lot of time teaching, and the basic principles of which I try to teach my students.
Blues and Boogie-Woogie piano teacher.
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In standard repertoire, I would almost always prefer an edition with little or no fingering. Can you explain a little more why you feel this way? I find most fingering to be distracting rather than helpful. It is rare that a fingering in a score would be something I would use that I wouldn't have thought of or it would be something I wouldn't use. I would just assume mark my own fingering without distraction.
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Just take out and Juxtapose Henle's edition of Beethoven Opus 56 against Schnabel's edition, then same with Chopin Ballade 4 with Cortot. Then tell me the guidance from these two pianists has not taught you how to play better. Their expertise as performing piano illustrates how to more consistent in the touch and execution of these two masterpieces of Western music. An experienced pianist like Murray Perahia I await his new edition of the complete Beethoven piano sonata's.
Last edited by Serge Marinkovic; 07/30/16 11:10 PM.
Serge P. Marinkovic, MD
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I don't think lack of fingering is lazy or cowardly. It's intentional. I prefer to put in my own fingering, and usually ignore what editors put in there. I can't read it too well anyway! Eyes getting too old. So my fingering is in pencil and bigger, and only there occasionally.
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Neither lazy nor cowardly, in my opinion. I prefer unfingered editions. I'll figure them out, or get help from a teacher or someone else who has played it already. Fingering is quite personal.
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I tend to prefer editions without fingerings. Any unnecessary markings on the score are a distraction for me. Most pieces were written/edited by men with much bigger hands than mine so quite often their fingerings won't work and the score becomes a mess. And I too have trouble reading the tiny printed numbers especially if the font is stylished.
Fingering a piece may be work, but I think it's really useful as a learning experience because it forces you to think WHY...of course it gets easier the more you do it.
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It seems to me that the quality of fingerings (i.e., whether they work for ME ) vary widely. I love them when they work, because I don't enjoy doing my own fingering. I hate them when they don't work, because then they just sit there on the page, distracting me. I take the fingerings of some pianist-composers pretty seriously, because they seem to have something to teach me. Rachmaninoff and Medtner (and, to a lesser degree, Chopin) have really taught me something about how to use my hands, through the fingerings they have given. Sometimes, those fingerings have seemed downright weird and perverse, but I've found that working with them in the long run yields the reasons behind them. It's smart of publishers to offer both fingered and unfingered versions of scores where it is cost-effective. My choice for the WTC from Baerenreiter was for their unfingered version, although they offered a fingered one. It would have been smart to check out the fingered version to see if their fingering were good for me, but I was too lazy. Plus, I already had some fingered versions, if I really wanted to see how someone else would finger a passage. I've have had the unfingered version a few years, and I have yet to check fingerings from other editions, so it seems to be working out okay. A pet peeve - sometimes fingerings have what appear to be typos, but it can be very, very difficult to figure out if they really are. Another pet peeve - pieces that generally give good fingering, but then don't give a clue for some particularly troublesome spot. I know Rachmaninoff does this sometimes, and it is maddening.
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Fingerings I'm not using absolutely distract me when they're in places where I'm already a little afraid of mistakes. I will typically scratch them out with a pencil to help me not hijack my attention as I play through.
But good fingerings do help. I usually try to start out with the fingering provided, if the edition is good. Sometimes I end up in a better place that I might not have had I not tried the printed fingering first.
As I get better I find that I tend to pick fingerings that differ less and less from the printed fingerings in good editions, and when I differ, I do so for pretty defensible reasons.
I don't usually use digital score readers, but am trying to make the jump. I like the Henle Library feature that allows you to treat editor-provided fingerings like a separate layer on the score so that you can turn it on or off, and also edit individual fingering entries, creating custom fingering layers of your own.
I just got an iPad pro 12.9 inch and downloaded ForScore and I'm pretty sure there's a similar feature.
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I like fingering if there is intelligence behind it. Otherwise, give me an un-fingered edition.
In some of the recent Polish National Edition works of Chopin, I enjoy reading about the different fingerings offered by Chopin versus the more contemporary ones offered by Jan Ekier.
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It's pretty simple. A persons level of piano expertise is what determines whether or not they require fingering on scores; a beginner finds them helpful because they need the assistance, whereas a well seasoned player doesn't require the "help" of fingering, as they have the experience to determine the best/easiest fingering to play the piece as written on their own accord.
WhoDwaldi, if you require fingering on every piece and there is none, you'll just need to have patience and work out for yourself and/or through your teacher the fingering that suits you the best. Being "irked" by the omission of fingering on a piece of music is not the fault of the composer, it's simply where you're at with your current level of playing vs. where you want to be that's responsible for that.
Learning to play the piano isn't a quick endeavor, it takes years and years. And it's this experience that you gain over the years while partaking in your piano studies that's the only thing that will end your dependence on written fingering...so keep things in perspective and forge ahead ;^)
Regards, Andy
1979 Yamaha C7D
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