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After being burned with a bad purchasing experience with a local piano dealer, I think it would be beneficial to other piano buyers to have a discussion on how to identify good piano dealers.

The dealer that I had a bad experience with had excellent Google reviews. I started my piano search with Google just like most other people did. I searched for piano dealers in my local area and I saw this dealer with more than 20 Google reviews and 18 out of 20 were 5 stars. Regrettably, I did not read the actual reviews but I just trusted the stars. After my negative experiences with the dealer, I went back to read those Google reviews and I was surprised at how many people had purchased a piano without doing any homework. Most Google reviewers praised the dealer for how nice and knowledgeable he was. The problem is that some of them listed the pianos they bought from the dealer and all of them were lower tier Chinese-made pianos. Several reviewers also said that they did not plan to buy a piano when they walked into the store, but after hearing the wonderful music played by the dealer and the beautiful sound of the piano plus how much discount they would receive, they decided to buy the piano and sing praise to the dealer.


It is true the dealer was very nice and personable, but there were many warning signs now I think about it. For example, when I asked for a specific piano model, the dealer told me that the piano just arrived yesterday and it was still in the crate. However, he promised to get the piano ready by next day so I can come back and play it. That probably sounds innocuous for an uninformed buyer, but an educated buyer would question how much prep work does the dealer do before putting a piano on the floor.

Another thing I noticed was the complex relationship the dealer had with Larry Fine's book/website. The dealer printed out a review from Fine's book and put it in a frame to promote a particular piano brand. Obviously the dealer loved the positive review from Fine's book. However, when I tried to negotiate the price using Fine's SMP price, the dealer bulked at me and said the price was printed incorrectly. Really? The dealer then told me that most piano buyers were not aware of Larry Fine's books and website.

Third, I noticed the dealer did not have a piano technician employed in the store. He hired a tuner to tune his pianos but the tuner was not an RPT. There was a shop in the back of the store but during my several visits I never saw anybody working in there. I don't know how important it is to have in-house piano technicians. Maybe it is totally irrelevant.

Lastly, the dealer seemed to mix true and false claims in his selling pitches. For example, he told me that Hallet Davis grand pianos are GREAT pianos because they were manufactured in the same factory that made Baldwin. How much was true in that statement? Another example, when I played a Weber W175, I could clearly hear the sound of the hammers hitting bass strings. I didn't know what the sound was but it didn't sound right to me. The dealer was on my side and he commented that the bigger the piano, the bass would sound more metallic. I did some research after I went home and I couldn't find any evidence to support his bigger piano bass more metallic claim. Is it true?

Anyhow, what do you think are the signs of good piano dealers?

Most all the dealer-members here on Piano World are good dealers, in my view. If they were not, you'd hear about it here on PW, most likely. You can tell by their participation here and the tone of their threads/post.

Red flags? In my view, if they bash and criticize the competition and the brands they do not sell, is a big red-flag. Sometimes judging the character of a person is not easy, especially with limited interaction. Another biggie red flag for me is, if you catch them in a little white-lie, (or any lie) or find out the information they presented is false or skewed, that's another reason not to deal with them. Look for honesty, integrity, courteousness, and a strong desire to have a satisfied customer. Reputations can't always be fully vetted and, or verified. Trust, but verify (Ronald Reagan) .

Look for a passion for the piano business, and not just making a dollar.

I could recommend several dealers-member here, and would not be a bit scared to purchase a piano from them.

Just a few of my own personal thoughts...

Rick

You can check this easily by the condition the pianos are in.
If they're well maintained in the showroom you have IMHO a better chance of having them maintained later by the dealer. Call it 'motivation' or pride of trade, whatever. Or plain smartness..

Staff technicians are fine but not always represent the finest [i.e. "more expensive ones"..]a city has to offer. It's one of the reasons we prefer to hire some of the top - and especially - "independent" guns ourselves.

You can always ask for names and have them checked out later.
Unfortunately PTG membership is not always a 100% reliable factor in each case. [sorry..]

Dedication, experience and knowledge is.

The condition of a piano will prove it.

Norbert

For me, 18 out of 20 five star reviews on Google would be a red flag in itself, as I'd suspect it was manipulated, especially as I've rarely seen independent music stores have that many reviews. If I saw that I'd then read the reviews and look for similarities in writing style and phrasing for further evidence that a number of reviews are bogus. If I think the reviews are genuine I'll also look at what was said and recurring themes and keep in mind some customers are impossible to please.

Then comes the visit. Looking around, asking questions, seeing how the salespeople respond and generally getting an idea if they're being honest or not, pushy or patient, etc. As a general rule I try to never make a large purchase shortly after trying something, especially for the first time. If I think I'll buy I'll at least leave the store and take the night to think about it, which helps think things over a little more analytically. I'm straight-forward with the salespeople on this. Some appreciate the information and seem okay with that while others will then go for pushy sales tactics, the latter of which causes me to decide not to buy from them.

I'll also watch and listen to how others are being treated. For instance I've never returned to one area music store after overhearing the owner mocking his customers to someone over the phone.

Generally, it's typically a sense that I get from people and the atmosphere. I've always tended to be quite good at reading people, though, which may help. It probably helps to be introverted, as I'll listen and evaluate more than talk. I also tend to over-analyze and research, and if a salesperson tells me something I'll often check on it.

So I suppose my method is to both go with your gut feeling while doing some research and fact checking as well as not making a caught-in-the-moment decision. While I can't say I've ever got a "smokin' deal" on a major purchase, I've also not had buyer's remorse and ultimately felt pretty good about helping keep a good shop in business.

Hi Pneuma,

Knowing some of the issues you are having, I truly empathize with you. I have several thoughts I'd like to share with you - some of which have already been posted here on PW over the years so please forgive my redundancy.

One of the problems consumers and retailers face today is the online presence of reviews. From the consumer standpoint, it is always nice to have supposedly unbiased reviews of other consumers to look at to determine the viability of a shop. However, as has been discussed here many times before, review sites are rife with issues. Sites like YELP are known to "tweak" the reviews of companies that do not pay them for advertising (see the upcoming documentary "Billion Dollar Bully" by Prost Productions). Anyone can say anything about a company, true or not, and under the guise of anonymity of the internet. A shop can do little if anything to refute the unjustified review, and unscrupulous owners can have family members or friends place unwarranted positive reviews of their company. I have owned my shop for nearly 40 years, and luckily have a great referral business, but if you look at our YELP reviews, we are to be avoided at all costs. Yet, I can prove that 95% of the one star reviews are bogus retribution while 90% of our 5 star reviews, all from verifiable customers with signed contracts of purchase, are "filtered" by YELP due to our refusal to advertise. So, the summary of that to the consumer is the old adage "don't judge a book by its cover."

The same holds true for reviews and rankings of pianos in Pianobuyer. While many consumers use the rankings and SMP as a bible, Larry himself CLEARLY states that the book and its opinions should be used simply as a guide. Additionally, while the old Pianobook relied on questionnaires from technicians for its rankings, Pianobuyer's rankings are primarily done by price point and relative price to other pianos in the marketplace rather than any quality standard. Manufacturers know this, and routinely play games with the "wholesale" prices that they give to Mr. Fine. For example, one well known manufacturer, in a Tier 1 position, sells their product to dealers at 30% less than "wholesale" but enjoys a significant advantage over their competitors in the same category. It's a complicated issue, one that Mr. Fine is aware of and, to his credit, tries valiantly to protect consumers from by adding disclaimers and suggestions.... but one has to read them!

In my career, I have been both on the wholesale and retail side of this business (at the same time)so I know the problems that manufacturers sometimes have in finding a good dealer in a given market. By the same token, it is hard for consumers to figure out who are the good guys and who are not. First, as Rickster and others have commented, a warning sign should be openly knocking one's competition. Good dealers are very confident in their products and services, and don't need to knock another dealer or product to stay in business. It is always best to spend time to explain the virtues of one's products and services rather than denegrate those of a competitor. If you're in a shop and the salesperson spends most of his time knocking another dealer, promptly leave and head to that dealer because they're probably the good one.

Second, when you are in a shop keep an open mind and don't close your self off to any one manufacturer or country of manufacture. Be honest with the salesperson about your desires and budget and listen to their recommendations. If you hear a lot of "all the parts here are manufactured in Lithuania, by 200 year old craftsman using only genuine 100% Lithuanian parts and this piano has the genuine PDQ symbol of excellence.." run, don't walk, to the door. A good piano will speak for itself, and good components are somewhat easily recognizable in the resultant sound the performance. USE YOUR EARS AND FINGERS to analyze the piano, not someone's opinion that is not based on your own findings.

Another suggestion is, frankly, to ask other dealers, teachers and technicians OUTSIDE of your area for their recommendations. Most of us known dealers throughout the USA on both the "good" and "bad" side of the Isle. Local Technicians and Teachers can be a resource, but be careful because quite a few are "commissioned" by dealers. A clue would be if a tech or teachers says "oh, only buy brand X." There are so many good brands on the market that if the statement isn't "well, check out "X,Y and Z" then they are usually being compensated.

If you live in a rural area, you might have to travel a bit to accomplish your goal. But I would encourage you to not be in a rush, and look for a piano that speaks to you, and gets your heart pounding. They are available in nearly every budget, so don't think you have to buy the biggest, best Steinbechdorfer to get a piano that you'll be proud to own.

All of the dealers on PW, such as Rich Cunningham, Steve Cohen, Norbert etc. have been in the business for years and I am sure will gladly refer you to someone in your area that they personally know. I am happy, as stated in the past, to help you in any way I can. Simply send one of us a PM.

I hope the above was helpful. I am sure you will hear from non-dealer PW members galore on this subject, but try to use your own best judgement and decide what is relevant to you.

I guess I can do this by example = one of the best piano stores I've worked for many years ago.

1. It was owned by two piano technicians who pooled their money to open a store

2. There was a full time head piano technician, who supervised apprentice technicians

3. There was a full time finish touch up guy

4. One technician did nothing but tune inventory all day

5. There was a rebuilding shop in the back that was usually staffed on weekdays

6. One of the technician owners would inspect each piano, new or used, and make up a "things to do list" for that piano.

7. It was the head Technician's responsibility to supervise the completion of the things to do list

8. Typical prep on a new or used piano would be 1-2 days, mixed between technical work and touch up finish work.

9. Each item on the to do list would be signed off on by the completing technician. The list could be shown to the potential client.

10. The store sold quality, not price. The customer was number one. Pianos were never, ever delivered out of tune.


Another store did a handsome business on re-selling used pianos. Each used piano was prepped before it went to one of the store locations. They sold them for good prices too.
The store prepped new pianos relative to their selling price and quality. Some pianos were delivered out of the crate and out of tune. but many were prepped.

A third store did as little prep as possible. In home tunings were an extra charge, as was delivery.

Each Dealer is different. Each client is different. A price sensitive client might love the low price dealer in town, while the picky client with more money to spend might want the dealer with better prep. That's what makes up a market.

So, what might be a "good" dealer to one person, might not be "good" to another.

The problem is the piano business has been consolidated over the last 15 years and few piano dealers still survive. Most piano shoppers in the U.S. only have access to less than a handful of piano dealers. I live close to a huge metropolitan area in the U.S. and there are only 3 piano dealers and a Steinway Hall carrying new pianos plus a few used piano dealers within 2 hours of driving. A Kawai dealer and a Hailun dealer are about 3 hours away. Of the 3 new piano dealers, one likes to bad-mouth competing brands, the second is the one I am having trouble dealing with right now, and the third is a good one. However, the third dealer carries mostly expensive American and European brands that I cannot afford. It is hard for me to pick and choose when my option is very limited. I don't know if there is any solution other than travel further, but I have a demanding job and young family. Traveling further for piano shopping is just not an option for me. Am I the only one in a situation likes this?

My oldest friend in the piano trade, sadly now deceased, a tuner who had worked for a good many shops during his lifetime, once told me that it is very easy to identify a decent and honest piano dealer. Just look for one who is over four metres high and has three arms.

So Pneuma have you had any success with the dealer yet? It's been a couple of weeks since your original thread.

Good post Norbert! I agree.

I want to get a refund and the dealer just ignores me. I hate to confront people, so I try to be as patient and nice as possible. However, if he continues to ignore me, I have a plan to get his attention.

Norbert, I'm in total agreement with this. If a dealer chooses a low standard for his own showroom, likely it's the same treatement for their customer.

BTW, There are fine technicians who aren't members of the PTG.

Today more than ever, a piano dealers reputation is a key asset or liability as the case may be.

Pneuma, assuming the facts are as you say, I would send an email to the owner stating that you feel aggrieved and want satisfaction. In this case a new piano or a compete refund. Give him 10 days to reply.

Warn him that should he fail to rectify this situation that you will post the facts of this transaction on Yelp and on every other Internet site you can reach. Suggest that it will cost him much more in lost business that it would to replace the piano. Further, should he fail to respond positively, file suit against him. I think you will find the courts very sympathetic to your position.

Steve, that's what I plan to do. I already told him nicely what I wanted. As a courtesy, I want to give him a few more days to respond to my last email, though I don't think he will respond.

This should not have escalated - A dealer needs to respond immediately to any concern of a client. This dealer not only delayed their response, but did not immediately send a repair person. The sales person should have dealt with this on the initial phone call, and scheduled a repair visit. The repair guy would have told Pneuma the piano is not repairable without refinishing, and the owner should have immediately offered a replacement unit.

Since everyone at the dealer delayed the response to Pneuma's concerns, Pneuma has lost confidence in the dealer and wants a refund, instead of replacement. The dealer has missed an opportunity to save the sale. At this point, the dealer is best off refunding the money. That also should have happened already.

Business 101 - respond quickly to client's concerns -

Sounds like you have a plan, Pneuma; and, it correlates with Steve's advice, who has been in the piano business a long time and knows the ropes well.

I hope the dealer responds and makes the decisions necessary to make you happy. Unfortunately, some folks in business are very stubborn and hard-shelled; they will call your bluff and play hard-ball, whether you are bluffing or not. Chances are, based on the dealers behavior and attitude, he's been down this road before and knows what he can get by with.

As far as being concerned about his reputation, he's already proven that he's not. He's probably made enough money in the piano business that he don't care about his reputation, or his customers satisfaction. He only cares about coming out on top and making one more dollar.

Again, I do hope it all works out for the best for you, and I'm so sorry you had to go through all the stress and hassle. If it's any consolation, Murphy (as in Murphy's law ) follows me around as well.


Great post, Bob!

Rick

I agree wholeheartedly with Bob. A dealer should respond immediately to any purchasers concerns.

Pneuma,

I've thought about this for a long time. I used to be a dealer and I thought of myself as a "good" dealer. I had good pricing, well prepped pianos, great brands, great after sale service, and I was careful to be positive in the sales process. I had one problem - not enough profit to stay in business. This was due to a combination of factors including the general economy, profitability of brands I carried, my costs, demand for pianos, my location, and a host of other factors.

Everyone customer has a different set of criteria for what they consider a "good" dealer. Price, service, sales style, product, and a whole host of other factors. What matters is what *you* consider a good dealer for you. Make a list - and be honest with yourself - about the most important factors in a dealer and then make the deal. I remember once buying a Honda CRV. I HATED the salesman and the sales process. It was downright awful; however, they had the car and the price I wanted, and I decided not to pay attention to the abuse during the sales process. I tolerated it, and got the car at the price I wanted. I had experience in sales, so I was able to ignore the garbage.

Make your list and stick to it. Get the piano the way you want it before you pay for it, and be nice. Dealers have customers they like, too. Most can tolerate the difficult customer with a smile, but beware, dealers are people too - and some customers are not worth the trouble. I was really tolerant, but a good *deal* is when both parties walk away with value. You never get something for nothing, either. If you want service - movers who are insured, showroom pianos that are tuned, actions regulated, and RPTS for the first service, it's ok to pay for it. If you don't care about any of these things, and price is the motivating factor, don't negotiate these things - focus on price.

My 2c.

So, let me give you an update. After being ignored repeatedly by the dealer, I totally lost my patience with him and I was determined not to have anything to do with him anymore. However, I decided to give him a last chance so I wrote a nice email to him and asked him to let me return the piano for a refund. I told him that I would pay $500 for moving the piano and all his trouble. Of course, I received no reply, so I sent the email again the next day. I then waited patiently for 2 weeks hoping he might change his mind.

Two weeks passed and nothing happened. I sent him an email documenting all my communication attempts with him and how he responded or not responded. During that 2 weeks, I also received confirmations from several professionals on this forum that this particular brand of piano was known to have problems with its finish. Since this dealer has been selling this brand for many years, I assumed he must know about this problem. I warned him that if he knew about the problem but still sold me the defective piano, it could be considered a business fraud. I told him that I now want a full refund and if I do not hear from him within 10 business days, I will report him to BBB and post my experiences on Google review and Yelp.

You know what, within an hour, I received an email from him but it was a reply to the email I sent him 2 weeks ago. He said that he would take my offer of $500 for a return and refund. I was furious but I was also tired of dealing with him, so I said yes.

Within 24 hours, the piano was out of my house and I got my money back minus $500.

So, I am back to the market for a piano again.

By the way, many of you may have seen my post about a cracked bridge on a Weber W-150 at this dealer's store. I did not buy that Weber W-150 and the piano I bought was not a Weber/Young Chang. I just want to clarify this so people won't think that Weber/Young Chang is having problems with its piano finish.