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If anyone would like to try out a rough draft of a new piano tuning simulator, you can download it here:

Piano Tuning Simulator

The simulator uses actual recorded piano sounds (with inharmonicity) and provides for fine tuning of any note.

It runs under Windows only, but eventually I hope to have one for iPhone/iPad and for Android.

Suggestions for useful features I could add would be appreciated.

The beats are audible though speakers and tuning is very easy using the arrow keys. Can you assign notes on the keyboard to rows on the computer keyboard? That way it would be easier to play checks when learning a temperament. The notes below A 3 don't play, so working on an F3 - f4 temperament isn't possible right now. Is there a way to re set the notes to equal temperament, or does the app need to be restarted? I think you are on the right track to a useful application.

I'm still running Windows Vista, sigh.

I can't hear the notes that I'm clicking on.. Do I need to provide my own .wav files??

The program comes with .wav files for A3...C5, so those should play. Eventually the program will be supplied with a more complete set of files, but I think some people will still want to create their own files, just so that they can simulate different pianos.

It should work ok with Windows Vista.

The use of the computer keyboard is certainly possible. The question is, will people find it easy to learn? And what about different octaves? As for resetting to the starting tuning, that is planned. Also I plan on having the current tuning offset displayed above every note. I should mention that my piano was not recently tuned when I made the recordings, so it is not necessarily an ideal tuning to begin with. That might be a useful feature - to start out with a tuning that is not very good so that one can practice making it better.

I can't get the notes to play when I click on them though, nor do I sse the hammer icon.

Robert when I'm using tunelab what is the proper way to set it up to do a pitch raise? Do I load average temperament then create the name of the file then save? Then measure? Then over-pull for a pitch raise? Then turn off over-pull and just tune normally?

This looks like a great start. I particularly like the idea of repeating the last two note simultaneously with the space bar. Sounding intervals in a convenient way from a computer keyboard needs a creative approach. Also the ability to alter the pitch while it is still sounding is a great help with similating a real environment.

Definitely there needs to be cents offset displayed somewhere. Is it possible to obtain this data by having the program listen to itself through the speakers and do its own pitch recognition perhaps?

I thought that the control of pitch was a bit coarse at first. Is it possible to adjust the rate of pitch change when arrows keys are pressed?

It works on my other computer, not sure why my laptop sound wasn't working. Ahhh this could be fun tool to help me learn thanks

Yeah way to go! I think you're onto something.

I really like this a lot thanks so much!! Will the finished product have 88 keys? I Look forward to more developments.

The program already has the capability of all 88 keys. The only thing missing is the extra wav files. The wav files currently packaged with the program are not all that great anyway. I think someone with access to a recording studio could make some much better wav files. Just make a wav file, name it Nxx.wav, and place it in the "Piano Tuning Simulator" folder, where the other wav files are, and the program will use it.

@Chris: The current finest control is 0.08 cents, and the size of the adjustments are adaptive, as described in the help file. I am also considering alternate means of adjustment, such as dragging the mouse across the screen.

0.08 cents is more than adequate. It must have been they way I was doing it.

Other features I like to see are:
1. The ability to reset all pitches back to equal temperament.
2. The ability to randomise the pitches to simulate an out of tune piano.
3. The ability to play chromatically consecutive intervals with ease to hear progressions.
4. A temperament range of C3 to C5 so that most tuning methods and sequences are possible.
5. Besides a display of cent offsets, a display of beat speed for the most prominent partials for the sounding interval would be handy.

I am not able to run the program, but previous attempts at simulation failed on my computer because it seems that the pitch intervals that it was capable of producing were too coarse. What is theoretically possible is not necessarily what you get.

BDB, 0.1 cent tolerance with both pitch generation and detection is possible on computers. For example, if I generate an A440 tone on my computer via the speakers and measure the sound of A4 with Tunelab on my Android via the microphone then I get a strobe display that does not drift. If I program the computer to sound 0.1 cents sharp then the strobe drifts slowly right, and if 0.1 cents flat then the strobe drifts slowly left. Therefore, if you are asserting that about 0.1 cents variation is not possible on computers, then my computer and phone proves otherwise.

I could hear the beats easily though my computer speakers. I'm sure headphones would work better. I'd love to show up at a piano and press the up and down arrows to tune it!

What is possible on one computer is not necessarily possible on all computers.

It should be possible on any normal home computer from the last decade or so. Of course it depends on the software driving the simulation...

My computer is a Mid 2013 MacBook Air. What I could hear from it was consistent with ±128 increments of pitch, which is coarser than the program that I was testing, but a logical number. If you know how to access more increments than that, I would be glad to test it.

Wooooow! Great simulator Robert.



Here are my suggestions:

When we tune by ear we constantly play different kinds of intervals to know if we must sharppen or flaten the note we are tuning and then we play runs of chromatic intervals to check and we play alternating test intervals, so I suggest you to add buttons in the screen which do exactly that.


1. Add "Listen Interval" buttons

+P8 -P8
+P5 -P5
+P4 -P4
+M3 -M3
+M6 -M6
+M10 -M10
+P12 -P12

So if you click on one of this buttons you will play the note being tuned plus the note which corresponds to the clicked interval.

Suppose you are tuning A3 from A4, then you select the square of A3 and then you click on the +P8 button. You will hear the octave A3A4.

To tune E4 from A3 you select the square of E4 and then you click on the -P5 button to listen the A3E4 fifth, and you can also listen to the E4A4 fourth by clicking on the +P4 button.

And so on. To tune a given note you can listen to any interval containing this note by simply clicking on the corresponding "Listen interval" button.


2. Add "Ladder" buttons

+P8 -P8
+P5 -P5
+P4 -P4
+m3 -m3
+M3 -M3
+m6 -m6
+M6 -M6
+M10 -M10
+P12 -P12
+P15 -P15
+M17 -M17
+P19 -P19

by clicking on one of these buttons you will listen a ladder (run) of chromatic intervals of that kind.

For example suppose you want to check the tuning of C4. You click on the C4 square to select it as the tuned note. If now you click on the -M3 you will hear the run of major thirds F#3A#3, G3B3 and G#3C4

If you click on the +M3 ladder button then you will hear the run of major thirds D4F#4, C#4F4, C4E4.

And so on.


3. Add "Test" buttons

+M3M10 -M3M10 (tests a 4:2 octave)
+m3M6 -m3M6 (tests a 6:3 octave)
+M6M10 -M6M10 (tests a 3:2 fifth)
+M3M6 -M3M6 (tests a 4:3 fourth)
+P4P5 -P4P5 (tests a 4:2 octave)

+ and - are used depending if you are tuning the lower or upper note of the interval tested.


4. Add a "Contiguous Major Thirds" button

CM3s

this button will play the contiguous major thirds below and above the tuned note.

For example if you are tuning C#4 by clicking on the CM3s button you will listen A3C#4 followed by C#4F4.



You can add as many buttons as you wish, the limit is your imagination. With these additions you will simulate the aural tuning experience in a very "real" way.

I uploaded an update today. It fixes a buffer size bug, adds the display of adjustment offset, and more...


You have to alternate between up and down several times to get 0.08 cent increments.


Now done.

Good idea. I'll put it on my list.

Excellent idea. Done with right and left arrows, using the two most recently played notes.

Pending until I set up my recording stuff again to record more notes from my piano.

Difficult to do without analyzing the recorded sounds, since I am not actually simulating the partials - I am playing back actual recordings.

@Gadzar: I will look for a way to implement "listen intervals" using the computer keyboard.

As for "ladder buttons", see the new right and left arrow functions to see if they serve the same purpose.

The "interval test" function looks useful. I will see what I can do with it.

I agree with there should be an automatic feature to switch on chromatic M3s-- instead of manually clicking the chromatic M3s an hitting space bar Also would like to see a feature that allows use to use the larger interval checks M17s.

Done. We now have keyboard shortcuts for playing 3rds, 4th, 5ths, 6ths, octaves, 10ths, 12ths, and double octaves from the note being tuned. This also addresses your "tests" function. Try it out.

There is also a visual indication of what notes are playing.
There are now wav files for all the notes from C3 to C5.

Hi Robert! Thanks for your work on this. I downloaded the update and have tried two different laptops, one with a small screen and one with a large screen and can't see the full keyboard, just G3 to A5 on both. Can a scrolling function be added or have the keyboard adjust to the size of the monitor. Great work as always!

Long time TuneLab user, (TL97, TuneLab Pro, PPC, Android)
Brent Musgrave

Thanks Robert,

I've tried it out and I'm afraid it doesn´t work as expected.

Tuning of A4 for example. I click on the square of A4 so I can tune it using the up and down arrows. The square above A4 is highlighted in green. When I click on the A4 key I hear A4 and a pink dot appears on the A4 key. If I depress the space bar A4 is sounded.

If I click now on the E4 key I hear E4 and a pink dot appears on the E4. If I depress now the space bar I hear the E4A4 fourth, that's fine.

But now if I click the D4 key (to hear the D4A4 fifth) then unexpectedly I hear the second D4E4, the pink dot moves from A4 to D4.

IMO the pink dot should move from the note not being tuned (E4) to the new selected note D4, keeping A4 selected until we click on another square.

I think there should be only one pink dot, not two of them. I mean the note being tuned should always sound. If you click on this note the pink dot appears on this note and only this note will be sounded. If you clik on another note, then the pink dot moves to this new note and you will hear the interval formed by this note and the tuned note. If you click now on a third note then the pink dot moves to this note and you will hear the new interval formed with the tuned note.

(I have troubles to express my ideas in english, it's not my native language)

But this won´t work with tests in which the common note is not the tuned note but the test note. So IMO the best will be to have the +/- P8, P5, P4, M3, M6, etc... interval and test buttons described in my first post.

Of course, you can select both notes of the interval you want to hear, by clicking on the two corresponding keys and then press the space bar to hear the interval but then the anoying thing is that the note sounds when you click on the key and you have to click on 4 keys and to press twice the space bar, so if you want to check a fourth, A3D4 for example, with the M3M6 test you have to

-click and hear F3
-click and hear A3
-press the space bar to hear the M3 F3A3
-click and hear F3
-click and hear D4
-press the space bar to finally hear the M6 F3D4

The hearing of the single notes between the intervals is distracting and you have too many steps to do to complete the test. That is definitely not what we do in aural tuning.

In aural tuning we alternately play the first interval and then the second and compare their beat rates.

If there were "test" buttons then, the tuned note being D4 for example, you have to click on the +M3M6 test button to hear F3A3 and click it again to hear F3D4. The test button will alternately play the two intervals used in the test. The + sign meaning you are tuning the upper note of the interval, if you were tuning the lower note (A3 in this case) then the -M3M6 test button should be used.

#methinks

But wow Robert, what a great innovation! You are the man

I'm delighted to see you take on this project, Robert. I look forward to making use of this.

This is just a thought. Can you assign the right mouse button for selecting an alternate interval for comparing beat speeds? for instance selecting with the right mouse button the interval " A3-D4 " as an alternate interval with selecting A3-E4.. Might make it easy to keep the user interface more simple.

I've already made great use out of this. You can use this at your own convenience which is great. I've used it the past few mornings its really neat! This will help me develop more of a musical ear for the way beats should sound. Great tool wish I would have thought of it first :-p

OK, I think I have solved the problem of playing alternate intervals, as requested by Gadzar and HelloMrZebra. The latest version just uploaded uses the PgUp key to alternate between a primary interval and the secondary interval. See the expanded section in the Help file under "How notes are played".

Also, @Brent: Keyboard scrolling is already implemented. Just use the mouse to grab and drag the portion of the screen just below the white notes.

It's not a 'new' idea.

www.goptools.com//tempertool.html

To me its new...Don't you wish you had this technology starting out?

Robert, can there be a 'detune' button for detuning the available notes or perhaps the temperament octave?

The latest version, posted today, has a new menu item under "Tools" called "Detune per PTG exam specs". This detunes the tuning using the same offsets they use when preparing a piano for an exam, with alternating plus and minus offsets of various sizes. Here is the link again:

Piano Tuning Simulator

Robert,

I´ve been playing with the simulator. Great program.

I have a little trouble with the polyphonie of the program. As I want to compare the beat rates of two intervals, say F3A3 and A3C#4.

I click on F3, then A3, then I press space bar repeatedly to hear F3A3, once I have a fair estimate of its betarate I click on C#4, but I hear the 3 notes F3 A3 and C#4.

Isn´t it a good idea to limit the polyphonie to 2 notes?

You have already done this with the use of the right and left arrow keys to play chromatic intervals, when you press the key the sound of the previous interval stops and the next interval is heared.

I tried to run it on my desktop PC, but got "Missing registry entry for location of the WAV files. Unable to run Piano Tuning Simulator"

I have Windows 10 Pro running on a custom-built PC, with an i7-4790K, 32GB RAM, 3x 4TB HDDs, 256GB SSD, integrated graphics, etc. Haven't tried it yet on my laptop. (It's a Clevo P750DM-G, with an i3-6100, 8GB RAM, 250GB SSD, 2TB HDD, GTX 970M, etc.) Both have 1080p displays.

When installing PTS on the desktop, I used the ultra advanced options, noted that it wanted to put the wave files in a location that doesn't exist on this computer / operating system, so moved it somewhere else. If I knew where the registry entry was that is supposed to point the program to the WAV files, I'd regedit & fix it myself.

Also, for when I'm done with it, what's the recommended procedure for uninstalling it?

The registry entry is HKey Current User/Software/Piano Tuning Simulator/TunDir. By default this entry is set to a new folder called "Piano Tuning Simulator" under your user's Documents folder. If you installed this while logged in as one user and tried to run it while logged in as another user, that might be a problem. I am considering changing this to point to the "Users/Public/Public Documents" so that it would not matter which user logs in to run the app.


It is registered for uninstalling just like most apps. If you go to "add/remove programs" in your control panel, it should be listed there as "Piano Tuning Simulator".

I'm really enjoying the program so far, it's helping me develop my ear for P5, P4ths, which I struggled with. I would recommend that the pitches be detuned and randomized every time you start the application because it's becoming predictable now.