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I am not 100% sure but I think one of the GranTouch touch models was released in 1997 and AvantGrand N3 was released in 2009. That makes it 12 years. So is it safe to say one can buy a N1 now with no fear of it being replaced for at least few years? What do you think?
Last edited by CyberGene; 09/04/16 05:51 AM.
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I think it is a safe bet. Waiting for a newer N1 could be long !
But we have few data (2 dates!). And piano makers could accelerate the line-up evolution. If I remember correctly, the newest high-end Roland (HP603, HP605), came just 1 year later than the previous models !
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Consider the number of threads that get started here about the AG series. Then consider the negative comments it gets; from the action to the price, to the sample set, etc.
Now consider the number of people who read all these threads and still end up buying one, and for the most part love them. Also that Yamaha knows all this market information.
It might be wishful thinking on my part, but there is a chance it never gets updated. Why? Pianos are a niche market to begin with, a piano is just a piano and people are still buying the AG without Yamaha throwing additional R&D money into it, or additional features. It seems like a win/win for the manufacturer.
edit: there are plenty of positive comments also about the AG series.
Last edited by 36251; 09/04/16 10:21 AM. Reason: additional comments pointed out to me that there are positive comments about the AGs
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AG have also positive comments. When I have tried some (N1/N3), I was happy with them.
I think opinions about them are divided. Negatives comments are useful: on what point should I be careful when testing a DP. But afterward, let's test by oneself and make our own opinion.
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It is not just Yamaha that can replace it, other companies can also replace it. If the competition gets stronger Yamaha will need to adapt. Kawai actions come close to AG for far less money, The much cheaper Rolands is beat the sound engine in many ways. Yamaha will need to step up their game at some point, old models cannot survive on brand recognition forever.
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I disagree, but my feelings could differ from yours. I don't think it is worthy to argue. (I didn't like the Kawai I have tried... But I think I should give it a second chance, I may change my mind).
My case is specific, I intend to buy one and use it with virtual pianos, then I don't care of the sound engine.
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Have you played them right next to each other? when I did that I had the feeling they played quite similar except when the kawai keys hit the keybed they project a somewhat heavier feeling. Also the Yamaha had more authentic key noises. I measured the friction and downweight on Kawai and they are very good, I cannot really pinpoint where this heavy feel is coming from, maybe heavier hammers. All in all the N1 is better but worth triple the price? Not in my opinion.
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A N1 and a CA67 in the same shop (also CLP757, CLP858, GP500, HP603 or 5, LX7 or 17). On the CA67, I have found to much friction on the keys. I did prefer all the high-end pianos I have tried. I am aware that this feeling doesn't match what I can read about the GFII. Then I will certainly give the CA67 a second chance before buying a N1 (which is not in my top priority nowadays, this may take some time!)
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One important feature of the AG action is that cause it's "real," it can be serviced. I'm not really 100% sure, but I don't believe any DP action can be modified. This does put the AG in a class by itself, even if people think they're similar when trying out in a store.
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On a DP, a service can be done : changing worn sensor strip, lubrication. My DP is 12 years old and is still fine. (But I am unlucky : a mainboard changed, a fuse changed, the whole keyboard changed since I had a fragile set of keys) I think plastic can be quite stable. I don't know about the wood.
On an hybrid, I suppose felts could wear more quickly than any parts of a DP. And in case of a breakdown, the way to the service center is more complicated (more heavy and difficult to move).
It is one thing I think about, since I plan to buy a N1 (and was unlucky with my piano).
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On a DP, a service can be done : changing worn sensor strip, lubrication. My DP is 12 years old and is still fine. Not quite the fine adjustments I was thinking about.
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On a DP, a service can be done : changing worn sensor strip, lubrication. My DP is 12 years old and is still fine. Not quite the fine adjustments I was thinking about. On my 12years old pianos, I still have an even reaction of each keys : no need of adjustment. But I have also a synthesizer from 1990 with a badly uneven touch response. I think we can do nothing but change the sensors strip (which could be hard to find now). This make me think of an advantage of AG : the sensors are optical then less subject to wear. Maybe some cleaning of the optical flag ? Recalibration ?
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Kawai actions come close to AG for far less money. Nope, not even close. I'm with Frédéric on this. They Kawai actions are too shallow and do not give the precise control over dynamics. IMHO of course so we can agree to disagree.
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Actually I agree with that too, but the dynamics problem is not with the key action but the sample and the touch setting.
I have recently investigated the CA67 with pianoteq (which can greatly improve the dynamics). I noticed if the touch setting is set to normal it was almost impossible to hit velocity 100-127, I needed to hit the keyboard so hard I was afraid to damage it. After changing the touch setting of the CA67 this could be resolved and then readjusted to the pianoteq soundengine.
When you test actions you should always play a while without sound as well IMO, at least that made me feel they weren't that much different.
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Consider the number of threads that get started here about the AG series. Then consider the negative comments it gets; from the action to the price, to the sample set, etc.
Now consider the number of people who read all these threads and still end up buying one, and for the most part love them. Also that Yamaha knows all this market information.
It might be wishful thinking on my part, but there is a chance it never gets updated. Why? Pianos are a niche market to begin with, a piano is just a piano and people are still buying the AG without Yamaha throwing additional R&D money into it, or additional features. It seems like a win/win for the manufacturer.
edit: there are plenty of positive comments also about the AG series.
Yes right on the money. I think real/serious players are less concerned about the latest and greatest sample -or some other tech advancement that has zero to do with developing as a player- as they are a very functional instrument that sounds good and responds well. In addition to alleviating any noise concerns while practicing. Almost every Pro player I've spoken with here in LA has nothing but the highest praise for the Avant Grands. The main issue with most, like me, is do I want to (or can I afford to) spend that much dough on digital. In fact I'm still kicking myself for letting my older Yamaha GT2 go. Especially after the dealer who I worked a trade with did extensive work on the action -sticking /unresponsive notes - and muffled sound. He buffed all the surface scratches out of the cabinet too. The thing looked and played brand new ! Worst gear move I've ever made.
Last edited by Dave Ferris; 09/05/16 03:21 PM.
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They Kawai actions are too shallow and do not give the precise control over dynamics. I am quite sure the depth of travel of the Kawai keys will be the same as an AP. (and the depth varies a bit with different makes of AP). Maybe they "feel" too shallow for whatever reason, but I'm sure a measurement will be normal. Greg.
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It never felt shallow to me. The measurement is around 10/10.1 mm which I believe it is "normal". I played on a couple of acoustics with shallower keydip and they actually felt that way.
Perhaps you mean something else?
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It never felt shallow to me. The measurement is around 10/10.1 mm which I believe it is "normal". I played on a couple of acoustics with shallower keydip and they actually felt that way.
Perhaps you mean something else? No. I have not measured the dip at all, either total or to the point of the sound (equivalent to hammer thrown), but compared to an acoustic it feels as if you cannot push all the way through (which obviously you can) or perhaps not as far. Maybe it's the lack of escapement but this same feel in comparison exists for me compared to the Roland PHAx actions. YMMV. The Kawai is a nice easy to play smooth action, albeit hard to control the dynamics partly because of that feeling of lack of depth. Adjusting the velocity touch settings helps. My original point though really was the Kawai actions do not feel close to an acoustic, for me, so IMHO. In fact I will go so far to say none of them do from any DP brands except the AG's and NU1. That's not to say they are bad feeling actions, but like an acoustic - no, and perhaps that's why the AG's and NU1 have plenty of buyers.
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Oh, I see. It is probably the fact that the hammer is always in contact with the key through the capstan.
For now I'm quite happy. The N1 is too expensive, I don't like the sound of it and I prefer not to use VSTs. The more I'll play on acoustics the sooner I'll feel the need to upgrade to a grand. If I had the possibility I would do it right away.
I'll probably mod the GF2 as soon as my warranty expires... Doesn't seem like I can do much to it though.
I wonder if Kawai will ever reintroduce models with a proper grand action.
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by Gino2 - 04/17/24 02:34 PM
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