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I know this thread is a few months old, but...

Today I visited the Frankfurt Musikmesse.
I had the opportunity to see and play the Carbiano.
http://www.phoenixpianos.co.uk/carbiano-frankfurt/

Not a bad action; but soundwise there's room for improvement. It sounded a bit thin. Not ugly; but I'm not sure if that's the sound I associate with a grand piano.

Hi Pat,
Thin in the bass or treble?
My impression from the recording was not thin as much as clear and cutting. Marshal tube amp over Fender LOL. So maybe it has a lot of high harmonics or odd harmonics. I thought it sounded a little hard in the recording, but was very impressed for it's size. I suspect it could be voiced a little warmer. Personal preference.

Did you get to compare it to the 5'8" Steingraeber or Phoenix?

Todd

Oh, I was listening to https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a5j9EtoydM0

I wanted to check in since I visited Hurstwood Farm Pianos 2 days ago, thought this would be a good place to add comments.

The farm, the people running the shop, and of course the piano collection were all amazing. Richard, Catherine, and Doug were incredibly hospitable. Ended up ordering the one C212 Phoenix they had for my parents' house. I thought the D232 sounded slightly better, but then when I went back to play the 212 I wasn't so sure anymore, and the 212 seemed to have more dynamic range in the middle, aside from being more compact and cheaper. The thought had crossed my mind that maybe I could get a second 212 for my cramped San Francisco dwelling and I could sleep under the piano, but that is probably a bad idea.

The recordings on their Youtube site have considerable reverb added, but the pianos definitely have the "ringing" property in real life. For me what immediately jumped out was that the sound within the first fraction of a second after you press the key decays much less than on a normal piano, along with the fact that the pianos are just overall extremely powerful.

I played just about all the pianos they had. I think tone wise, the Phoenix pianos are good enough. It's worth mentioning I have played a lot of high end instruments, recently went around to quite a bit of high end piano dealers, and usually play on a Roland digital (which has an amazing sound engine), so I don't really fall in love with the sound of any instruments. I will admit, the Bosendorfer Imperial does sound better to me than the C212. The Steingraebers without the Phoenix goodies were okay, but sounded feeble next to the Phoenix pianos. I didn't find anything strange about the tone at all, despite the very non-traditional construction.

The WNG actions feel quite different from Renner actions, but I knew that already having gone to a Mason & Hamlin dealer a few months ago. I think from the factory, WNG actions are a little "weak" in the sense that you hit a wall at mezzo forte and need to add a lot more effort to get it past that, but Doug told me that's something that should be adjustable. That said, their studio seems to muffle the sound quite a bit so in a more reflective room such as my parents' living room I think it should be about right. Perhaps this property is actually a good thing, because it indicates the dynamic range of the instrument is so big. The touch was pretty consistent across the whole range, unlike say Estonias I have played with their booming bass, or the Kawai SK-9 with its superpowered trebel.

The stainless steel strings were very surprising. I was extremely skeptical when I first read about them because the larger diameter is supposed to be undesirable, but hearing steel vs. copper wound strings side by side there was no question the steel strings sounded much cleaner. Inharmonicity wasn't an issue even on the A170, which had the thickest bass strings I have ever seen.

Overall, I was extremely impressed by the instrument, and also by the value. Frankly speaking, I think these would be flying off the proverbial shelves in California even if they jacked the price up by 10k, because their asking price is lower than a Yamaha C5X last I checked.

That said, this piano might not be for everyone. If you like a bright sound, you will need a larger room because with harder hammers these instruments are crazy loud. The powerful sustain means you have to be very careful with your touch and pedaling to get the articulation you want, and the massive dynamic range makes it tricky to control. It is very unforgiving. Certain pianos are better for certain music, and the Phoenix IMO is definitely going to be biased in that respect. Scriabin for example, works very well on them.

For me, I thought it is just right. The room it will go in is very reflective and loud, so the softer hammers should work very well to moderate the sound. The extra effort it takes to control the instrument is also going to be very useful since my playing has gotten sloppy thanks to the very forgiving Roland FP7F I usually practice on (well, when I am practicing, which is not that often anymore).

I'll be sure to post some unedited recordings when the piano eventually makes its 6000 mile journey here. I have Rode NT5 omnidirectional condensers which to my ears are extremely accurate, so I think they will be a good representation of what the instrument sounds like. Hopefully some skeptics will be converted

You saying that the piano you tried had harder hammers but you are opting for softer?
Also did you try the half-blow pedal to help with dynamics?

Looking forward to the recordings

They had 3 pianos side by side, I think the A170 had the hardest hammers, the C212 had been voiced softer, and the D232 was in between. The A170 was incredibly loud for such a tiny piano, I have never seen anything like it.

Half blow pedal? There's an una corda pedal, and probably because everything is brand new its effect on tone is very progressive. Hard to describe in words what it does but it's nothing weird.

Since we wanted a gloss black finish pedal lyre instead of the standard walnut, I'm told it'll be end of December before it arrives. The anticipation is killing me haha.

From what I understand the half blow is activated when you depress the una corda further. It shortens the distance from the hammers and the strings.

Uncontrollable or overly loud volume is what concerns me why the carbon fiber sound board but sound like this worked around by using softer hammers and voicing.

Miguel,

That is only true on an upright, and it shortens the distance progressively. On a grand piano the entire piano keys and action shift to the right causing the hammers to strike the keys offset... for instance if the hammers were to strike 3 strings, they now only strike 2, if they were to strike 2, now only 1, and in the bass the hammer offset creates an even softer progressive blow, dependent on how far the pedal is depressed.

Phoenix grand pianos are available with a hydraulic soft pedal/half-blow pedal which acts as Miguel described. It appears that it is an option, rather than a standard feature, so perhaps the piano purchased by trigalg693 did not have the half-blow feature.

http://www.phoenixpianos.co.uk/custom-design/

I have never seen the half blow on a Phoenix, I would assume that it is a separate pedal that is added like on Faziolis? The una corda worked like a normal piano.

Don't get me wrong, the piano is not uncontrollable at all. You can play it very very softly without trouble, but its maximum volume may be overwhelming. My current Kawai on the other hand is uncontrollable, despite its maximum volume being lower. If you lightly press the key it still gives you a loud sound, whereas the Phoenix is whisper quiet if you want it to be.

The new Steingraeber E272 we just received has both the "Mozart" lever and "Sordino" pedal. The Mozart rail works by lovering the key depth from 10mm to 8mm, and shortening the hammer travel. The Sordino is engaged using a lever and the middle pedal, much like it did on Chopin era Erard pianos. It is a wonderful feature for Schubert, and Jura Margulis has just released several recordings using the feature.

If you would like to try it, feel free to call and setup an appointment with me to play it.

Well after many setbacks (custom fallboard and lyre were stuck in Poland), I finally got word that it'll be arriving in LA in a month. I imagine it will take another few days to get it to SF. On Youtube there's a video of Scriabin op.42 no.5 being played on the Carbiano 170, which IMO sounded really great, so I learned that piece and will get a recording of it on the C212 for everyone. The anticipation is killing me.

The GBP has appreciated a bit, but Hurstwood Farm Pianos seems to have dropped the price by 20%, so now you can get a 212 for only 25k GBP and a 232 for 28.5k, which is a ridiculous steal. (oops, I paid a few k more :/) That's less than a smaller Schimmel here in the US, or around the same as the MSRP on a Yamaha C3X. If you bought a Pearl River piano and then retrofitted it with bridge agraffes and a WNG action, it would probably end up being more than that, which is pretty crazy.

On a side note, I was at the SF Steinway dealer the other day watching Ken Iisaka play and noticed that they now ask 110k for a Model B. For that much, you could buy a Phoenix 272 and have enough money left over for a new car...

These pianos are really the bargain of the century. If you love pianos and are considering an exotic high end instrument or even just a new Kawai or Yamaha, you should really make the trip to England to see these.

Well it seems I need to make a correction, I went on their website and it seems between yesterday and today the prices have been changed quite a bit. Now they are just slightly discounted to the equivalent size Steingraeber. Frankly, still a smoking hot deal. It is only maybe a 10k premium over a similarly sized Yamaha at MSRP.

I am starting to sound like a salesman for Richard Dain haha. But really, these are incredible instruments with very low cost of ownership for heavy use due to the technology.

In this thread and another, you are making statements about comparisons in price that are, well, alternative facts. In order to make a valid comparison, the pianos must be equal, i.e. The same model, same features and same age. Additionally, all expenses, such as duty, freight, moving, uncrating etc. must be factored in, as well as fluctuations in exchange rate. The piano you selected, while I'm sure a fine instrument, is not new, and is not a comparable piano to a standard Steingraeber 212 with traditional construction, and the price listed on their website, in British POUNDS, is more than you could purchase one here for, as pointed out in another thread.

If your assertions and prices were correct, then no US dealer would buy the instruments from the factory, but rather purchase them from a dealer somewhere in Europe. Obviously, the manufacturers would additionally lose all credibility with US dealers.

I feel I must say something here - this piano IS new. May I ask why you thought it was not?

Also, your thought that it is not comparable to a Steingraeber C212 is surely opinion? As it is partially built by Steingraeber, surely it makes for a perfectt comparison, whether the one comparing it prefers it or not?

I have bought a new C212. The thread seems to have got tangled up in confusing price information. I am familiar with Steingraeber instruments (among others), having been a fan of them for some 10 years, and watched the Phoenix development for that period too. I also had use of a Steinway D for quite some time before I gave up playing several years ago through injury. I have recently returned to serious playing which is why I bought a new piano.

People buying 7ft pianos are probably quite serious pianists and will look at a variety of instruments. Price is not necessarily the only factor or even the main factor for many.

The Phoenix C212 is a remarkably powerful, but very controllable instrument. Since the case and much of the assembly is done by Steingraeber in Germany (a positive selling point I venture to suggest), the pianos are in many ways extremely comparable. The Phoenix uses the WNG action (Steingraeber has Renner), patented bridge agraffe system (also used by Steingraeber) and the latest iteration of the carbon fibre soundboard. The 7ft model is a first class instrument. Members of long standing here are welcome to make contact with me by PM if they wish to try one in a home environment (which is different to a showroom). I always like to meet other pianists! (I am not an agent for Phoenix of anything - just a satisfied customer / amateur player).

The WNG action is a revelation to me. Very consistent control. Exceptionally fast and predictable repetition capability, and of utmost importance ppp is easily accessible. Action, when regulated well, is faultless. I have not owned or played a piano that is better in that regard. It makes the tonal variations of this instrument highly accessible.

A magazine has asked me to write a review of the piano which I will do later this year. I will also put it on here if anyone is interested. I need to have a few more months experience of it first (I have had mine 5 weeks) and recover some of my playing capability (hopefully).

I think we can have discussions of pianos without characterising something as an "alternative" fact. Also, having played Steingraeber and Phoenix pianos at Hurstword Farm and having acquired a Steingraeber Phoenix 25 there I haver some experience to compare them. They'll al wonderful. Experience counts for a lot and, especially, sitting at a piano and playing lets us know what we're dealing with.

I would say in terms of the workmanship and material areas in which Steingraeber is involved, the pianos are likely quite comparable. The belly designs of the Phoenix and the Steingraeber could not be more radically different and although one can get Steingraebers with WNG parts, I would be surprised if they were ordered that way even 5% of the time.

The sound and touch should be as different as different gets, but why not compare any piano with any other and choose your preference?

Hi Keith,

I totally agree. Surely it's ok to compare any piano with any piano... that's why it's called comparison. What's the point in ONLY comparing pianos that are virtually identical?

That's the beauty of our field - the vast array of colours, tones and feelings in all the different models of all the different manufacturers. It's a pleasure to be a part of. We do our best to make something a little different to add to this variety.

I'm still confused about the "not new" comment though Russell...

Keith, "could not be more radically different" is an interesting remark. I would like to understand the reasoning from an interest perspective. Unless I have fundamentally misunderstood, typically the generic term belly means the soundboard, bridges, belly rail, cast plate, dampers, tuning pins and pin block.

Both pianos have a soundboard, the Steingraeber is spruce usually with Carbon Fibre as an option, both have the same frame, rib layouts are very similar.
Both usually use the Phoenix bridge agraffe system. The design of this is so far as I can see intended to reduce or eliminate downbearing force on the soundboard.
Plate (US term "harp"?) looks to be identical?
Tuning pins appear to be very similar. I don't know about pin block.
Damper rail and dampers is Renner v WNG but functionality (stopping string vibration) is surely the same. Felt quality is very high on both damper actions. Actuation system with pedals acting on a dolly bar is conventional in both.
Both have sound reflecting inner rim design.
Case is the same.

This suggests to me that the main belly difference is in fact probably the soundboard, where a very high quality spruce board of thickness (I don't know = 8-10mm?) is pitched (pun intended ;-) against a much thinner carbon fibre board (also of high quality) with a thin veneer face.

The big advantage of going to a reputable dealer like you or Hurstwood is that we punters can play very similar instruments from different manufacturers side by side. That is pretty much the only time we can do a meaningful comparison as 99% of us never get chance at home. Recordings are flawed (though not valueless) as a comparison for all sorts of reasons.

Both the Steingraeber C212 and Phoenix C212 are clearly excellent top tier pianos. They do sound different, but both sound MORE different, in my opinion, when compared with Boesendorfer, or Steinway say, than they do from each other. Voicing is obviously a factor to bear in mind.

What does make a noticeable difference, again just IMO, is that the Steingraeber is typically strung with copper wound bass strings and the Phoenix with stainless steel. It would be very interesting (for me anyway) to hear either of these instruments side by side strung with copper and stainless steel. This would help to isolate whether the soundboard or the strings are having the most influence on perceived sound quality (or tone as we like to call it).

As ever, the best thing to do is go and play them. Pianos are quite a personal choice.

Kind regards, AJB

Keep in mind that "listed price" includes 20% VAT that is not paid when exported. Sales tax in the US should not also be paid. Still a net savings over duties and shipping if not shipping by air.