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I read the OP as seeking encouragement to move away from block-chord imaging towards scale areas and can heartily recommend doing so without delay.
Maybe the double block chord imaging approach to 11s is addictive when first trying to get comfy in all the keys but afterwards when your right hand is busy tinkling melodically jazzified scalecercizes (and so the left is accidentally dense and perhaps rootless), imaging an 11 (or any other) chord as being composed of two superimposed triads each with a mentally-recognized root may distractingly point the improvising right hand first towards the scales associated with those roots (whereas at least my right hand is mostly just hungry to know what the next chord will be in order to identify available scale choices for improvising).
(intrigued about above comments differentiating the sus and 11 chords...these days among accidentals I'm often using only a 6 with my sus-es).
if by "chords presented that way" you meant complex chords written using slash notation, then, no, most chords don't yield such simple solutions as the 11th chord. But these following might give you some insight, using a simple C7 in the LH (reading up, notes C,E,Bb) the following triads work well.
This is experimental, and that's why I like it. But there are already a lot of variables. With each of these, play the 3rd and 5th the LH? Omit the 3rd but keep the 5th?
These are choices, and you just have to monkey around.
If I give students too many choices, they get lost.
I like starting suggestions that work, no revoicing. Get them in the hands as stand alone chords, get used to the sound.
My personal favorites, for students.
D7/C7, and transpose to all keys. The reason is that it's a great final chord, root also doubled at the top. It goes way back, so it has history, but no one (I think) would use it today and say, "That doesn't work any more - it's too cliche".
That makes it a very powerful I chord and pushes home the idea that 7 chords are finishing chords today and have been for decades.
Another: Eb7/C7 and transpose. This gets into whether or not #9 is really b10.
This one probably pushes to F7 of some kind, so Ab/F perhaps:
Eb Ab C --------- F C A
But the big problem is what goes before, and what goes after. Almost any chord, no matter how ugly by itself, will work great somewhere, in the right context.
With other voicings it becomes a problem of whether or not to omit the 3rd, as many other people have mentioned.
In my own experience, the conscious process of building the chord, the way 'you see it', the device you use to remember it, is cast off once the chord is fully memorised, where the symbol on the page becomes an action in the hands and a sound in the head. Ultimately you do whatever is easiest but the learning and the trick you use to learn the chord is an intermediary passing phase.
Because each of us follows a different path to mastering whatever we eventually get in our hands and in our ears, we can only describe the final product and not how we get there.
It's interesting, as noted above, that we're talking about a chord notation (D11) that doesn't appear to be used in lead sheets!
(I meant to come back to this but got distracted) Maybe for jazz sheets but see below. I had the misfortune, prior to getting studio work, to spend a couple of years in the early 70s preparing lead-sheets for UK publishers. For every hit there's a hundred flops so there was a lot of work - uncreative, toilsome but useful training for the ear. This was at a time when pop styles were moving from folk influences (decidely 7sus4 or just bleak s4), then finding the likes of James Taylor sneaking in the occasional 11, through dance styles (heavy 11 use) to EW&F where we even get some nice 'mild' jazz tensions. For me, the distinction between the sus and the 11 is pronounced, so the 11 appeared as required and that was fairly often. What I see standing in for the 11 chord in the NRB reference is Bb/C and that was always taken to be a legitimate substitute. Maybe their reference is why you're seeing so few jazz sheets showing the chord as an 11.
A classic example of the two notations coexisting would be the short intro to Midnight at the Oasis - a neat string of five 11 chords. You'll see some piano copies showing the 11, others with the root+ 1-tone-dropped major triad. With other songs you'll also see the variant using the m7 on the 5th.
Dire: that's a very helpful example. To my ears and sight, coming from a jazz background, those are all sus chords. In the Real Book chord intro, they have a Xsus(9) chord, which is exactly what is in the Midnight at the Oasis chords, except the 5 is missing. But as you know, I'm sure, the 5 is frequently left out of jazz chords. I now think the X11 chord is just a different way of thinking about the sus chord.
A classic example of the two notations coexisting would be the short intro to Midnight at the Oasis - a neat string of five 11 chords. You'll see some piano copies showing the 11, others with the root+ 1-tone-dropped major triad. With other songs you'll also see the variant using the m7 on the 5th.
That's pretty much dead on. I don't know this tune or anything about the people who performed it, so thanks for including a link.
For the record, here is what I found, with sheet music
F#11 B11 C#11 Ab11 Bb11 Ebmaj7
Somewhere else:
INTRO: E/F A/B B/Db Gb/Ab Ab/Bb
You can see that it should be E/F#
But otherwise this is just two equal ways of representing the same thing.
In this case I prefer the 2nd way because you don't have to guess whether or not to include the 5th or not. If we define a chord with 7 9 and 11 as an 11 chord, there is no possibility to be a bit more precise.
The 3 has to go, so I would go with E/F# for no 3 and 5, which has what might be called a more economical sound.
How is the 11th usually used, if it is not a suspended chord with the 4th note resolving to the 3rd?
Usually in a sequence of other 11 chords, as in the "Midnight..." example?
As the tonic chord?
Does it "fit" better on some chords based on the major scale than others? In other words, is it found more often as the V chord, for example, than as the 4th?
Are there some progressions in which it works better than others, and on some chords in said progression better than others? In other words, is it found in ii--V7-I progressions more often than in I-V-IV progressions? And if so, is it usually used on some of the chords more than others because of voice leading?
How is the 11th usually used, if it is not a suspended chord with the 4th note resolving to the 3rd?
Usually in a sequence of other 11 chords, as in the "Midnight..." example?
As the tonic chord?
Does it "fit" better on some chords based on the major scale than others? In other words, is it found more often as the V chord, for example, than as the 4th?
Are there some progressions in which it works better than others, and on some chords in said progression better than others? In other words, is it found in ii--V7-I progressions more often than in I-V-IV progressions? And if so, is it usually used on some of the chords more than others because of voice leading?
The Dominant 11th (simply known as 11th Chord) is used in contemporary music as the V(5) chord. To play this chord, play the root note + a major chord a whole step below the root. For example C11 = C + F Bb D (root + inverted Bb Chord.) you can invert the Bb to any inversion as long as you maintain C in the root. Play the example below and resolve to a root position F Chord (V-1 in F) to hear the sound.
Just my two cents: I like the sound of 11th chords and when I play them I do pretty much what you do. If the chord is a C11 I use Gm7/C or D11 I use Am7/D and so on. The fifth isn't really essential to the chord so I some times just use Bb/C for a C11. And of course different inversions of the Bb or Gm7 for a C11. In pop and rock sheet music I don't think I've ever seen an 11th chord with the third included.
For the 13th chord I use the number 7936 to help me remember or 3679. I use the root in the bass then use the 7th, 9th, 3rd, and the 6th of the scale in the right hand. I know the 6th is really the 13th but thinking this way seems easier for me to remember. Again, in pop and rock sheet music I haven't ever seen the 11th used in a 13th chord. But hey, if it sounds good, it is good.
"I wish there was a way to know you're in the good old days before you've actually left them." Andy Bernard
Oopsy, C would not be the first choice for root ID in my above suggested voicing (G-A-C-F).
Reminds that sus chords derive some their lovely ambiguity from being capable of supporting more than one root choice (less true of the fully-stacked 7-9-11 chords mentioned further above).
Practicing this morning, I came across what I think is in my opinion a nice example of a G major 11 chord voicing, and remembering this recent thread I thought I would chime in. It does contain the major third, the ninth as well as the raised fourth so I would certainly not consider it a Sus4.
LH/RH: G-F/B-C sharp-F-A
The tonal character comes through nicely (I thought) in this voicing. Note that this voicing can be thought of as a major 9th with the fifth dropped by a semitone.
PS - By contrast, in a II-V-I sequence, a Sus 4th can be achieved when the minor 7th of the II chord is retained in the bar belonging to the V chord, then said to be "suspended". It does have a different tone. In the same key as above, if the II is a D minor 7 (D/D-F-A-C) then the V is G but lets retain the same RH notes from II, moving only the LH to G. This sound is a sus 4th, and it can still resolve to I (C major).
Like you said, the C# in the RH voicing of your first example (being a +11) makes the chord something other than a sus/11 type chord, like a whole tone dominant (and so with less urgency to resolve). As with alot of wholetoney-ness, the C# doesn’t seem indispensable to the chord but, rather, could be replaced with (e.g.,) the D# augmented note without significant change to the overall feel or function of the chord.
Separately, your second example illustrates the sus in a dominate role (as did a few other posters) while I’m still in the soup about my further above mentioned efforts to cast the sus in a ii chord role (e.g., in the key-of-C, a LH-ed G-A-C-F “subdominate†chord): is it the rootless ii sus chord I imagined or merely a plain vanilla IV chord? I can try to justify the ii sus label by RH improv over it in the Ebmin maj7 scale (followed by the Abmin maj7 improv scale over the dominate) but my confidence is waning.
Like you said, the C# in the RH voicing of your first example (being a +11) makes the chord something other than a sus/11 type chord, like a whole tone dominant (and so with less urgency to resolve). As with alot of wholetoney-ness, the C# doesn’t seem indispensable to the chord but, rather, could be replaced with (e.g.,) the D# augmented note without significant change to the overall feel or function of the chord.
Separately, your second example illustrates the sus in a dominate role (as did a few other posters) while I’m still in the soup about my further above mentioned efforts to cast the sus in a ii chord role (e.g., in the key-of-C, a LH-ed G-A-C-F “subdominate†chord): is it the rootless ii sus chord I imagined or merely a plain vanilla IV chord? I can try to justify the ii sus label by RH improv over it in the Ebmin maj7 scale (followed by the Abmin maj7 improv scale over the dominate) but my confidence is waning.
Thought I'd chime in, I hope that's OK. Just wanted to point out the dom7+11 chord is part of a class of dominant chords typically referred to as 'Lydian Dominant'. If you hit that chord 7-3-#4-1(or 9), you can here how it works in the progression. Lot's of times-but not always-they appear on the seventh degree of the tonic, lowered a 1/2-step, as a dominant seventh chord. That's a very common chord which resolves up a whole step to the Imaj7 or a tritone up to iii7. It can be derived from a mode of the whole tone diminished(ascending melodic minor) scale.
Seems like a relatively unique mood is evoked when playing around solo in your mentioned Lydian Dominant scale, but when hitting your suggested Lydian Dominant chord, for me, the whole-toney-ness of the raised 4th overwhelms to the point where it seems replaceable by an out-of-your-scale raised 5th, without significant mood change.
(+11’s r so different from 11's that I guess we're technically off-topic...testament to the paucity of labels with which we are dealt)
Thanks for the response. I wonder if kanadajin would offer sharing with us the names of the chords that came immediately before and after the G7+11, as well as the key the piece is in.
Thanks for these thoughts krewster and emenelton, this whole-tone or lydian dominant discussion is turning out to be very interesting.
krewster: I tried playing the augmented 5th (D sharp) instead and of course it works as well, not significantly changing anything as you correctly mention. So that would appear to be one possible option, and then of course improvising using the whole tone scale fits in nicely. I did not realize this before so thanks for that. However I am not sure I completely follow you when you write "cast the sus in a ii chord role (e.g., in the key-of-C, a LH-ed G-A-C-F “subdominate†chord): is it the rootless ii sus chord I imagined or merely a plain vanilla IV chord?" Perhaps you could elaborate?
emenelton: If I stick to the Lydian dominant version (Db which is the raised 4th), to my ears an improv on this scale sounds fine as well, though it would give a slightly different character. I suppose it all depends on the harmonic color one is seeking. I would say it does work - but you are right in that I think a little bit more context on my part would be in order.
The key of the piece (for what its worth it is Gershwin's "But not for me") is F major. The preceding chord is a D alt, with rootless voicing LH/RH: F sharp - C/F-Bb-D-F, moving briefly to a passing suspended chord where the RH imprint is retained but with an Ab dominant 7th in the LH, arriving on a Gm9, to a C7b9 with the 13th (A) included and finally resolving to an Fmajor7.
