Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Adult Beginners Forum A flat or G sharp: Same tone, but different note. Why?

http://i1149.photobucket.com/albums/o598/Jiatu/01%20Ask%20Me%20Now_zpsoqnsqzav.jpg

Above is a link to an image taken from Thelonious Monk: Easy Piano Solos, "Ask Me Now". The last note of the first measure (in the image) is an A Flat. But when used in a chord (next measure) it changes to a G Sharp. Why is that? What creates the decision to use one or the other? Why not just use two G sharps?

It has to do with classical harmony. If you study that until you understand the difference, you will be a better musician.

Without seeing more than 2 measures it's hard to say where the piece is going. The first measure looks like the piece is in Db major (5 flats). The second measure looks like he is modulating to the key of A major (3 sharps)but it may be a bridge, or transition, to a different key.

In jazz charts, you usually describe a note in the way that will be easiest for the performer to understand what you want. In the first chord, Ab7, Ab is the tonic, a note people would quickly understand as part of that chord. The second time, it is a B chord, and an Ab would give the performer pause because Ab is not part of the B scale, whereas G# is part of the scale. A jazz performer tends to think of the 6 in a B chord as G#, not Ab.

Whether these designations are in accord with theory, I don't know, but I think it just comes down to readability, and how people think of the notes in certain chords.

I'm wondering - does it (have to do with classical harmony) in this case? It would be good to know what is in the next measure - what follows that whole note chord in the right hand. The problem with more modern music is that it doesn't always work with with the old classical harmony rules. Also, when people write out notation for modern pieces, it isn't always done correctly. I know little about Theloneus Monk except the name, and I'm not familiar with the piece.

I'm looking at those two measures and everything except for the B6/9 is written in flats. In "classical harmony" you'll get sharps in a flats signature for example when creating the Dominant V or V7, and raising the middle note of the chord in a minor key. But is that happening here (in the next measure?)

Then I'm looking at the chords themselves. Adding the chord labels printed in the music:

1. "B69" as B D# G# C# - could have been written as Cb69 - Cb Eb Gb Db
2. "C" as C E G# C#" = That is not a C chord: it is Caug - If staying in flats could be C E Ab Db as notes
3. "Db" as Db F G# Db C# - could be written as Db F Ab Db - would this be better?
4. "Do" as D F G# C# (or D F Ab Db) - no idea what to do with that Db or C# for naming the chord.

I'm wondering why G# C# in the RH. In the next measure, does C# climb to D, and G# climb to A? (i.e. sharps giving the sense of climbing).

In the LH, we can see the chromatic ascent easily: B, C, Db, D ... D#, E, F. would this be less clear if written as Cb, C, Db, D .... Eb, E, F? (For the latter, maybe).

I am not an expert in this.

jjo - we cross posted. I had a feeling that this did not involve classical harmony theory, and you seem to be saying so.

I took a beginner jazz course a few months ago, and one impression I got is that names are not quite as accurate, because a certain degree of instinct and understanding is assumed, and also that there is a degree of flexibility. So for example, the chord designated as "C" has a G# in it which makes it augmented, but maybe what the player feels is "I'm holding down this B chord, and the notes I'm playing underneath in the LH feel like C, Db, Ddim". Would that be it?

It's not the same note.

It's only that on the modern piano, they tempered the Ab and G# to one and the single note. There are some old keyboards that have different keys for these two notes.

There is more than the Ab-G# that is spelled enharmonically.
first measure Db -> second measure C#
first measure Eb -> second measure D#
first measure Ab -> second measure G#

Probably just easier for the jazz musician to think and remember - I wouldn't try to overanalyze it. Bass is going up chromatically anyway.

Sometimes in classical music, enharmonic notes are used as pivot tones to a new key. Schubert was fond of this. You are going along in Eb, with Ab notes. Then there is a diminished 7 chord on Ab. Before you know it, it changes spelling to a G# diminished 7, then magically resolves to an A major chord - Surprise! we are in A major.

Sam

The main cadence of jazz IIm7 -V7- I maj. The key of piece - Db maj, but the key signs are absent, only accidental.Since Ebm7 - Ab7 is the basic cadence in Db major, the harmony of next measure should be seen at an angle precisely this key ; ie, B6 designation is not associated with Db major, but the lowered seventh step - Cb. So the first chord in the next bar : Cb6 / 9; and in the right hand should be - as you rightly felt - Db and Ab.

I agree completely with Nahum. Whoever wrote out that harmony certainly wouldn't play it that way. They would play it as Nahum states.

The harmony moves decidedly towards a Db Major cadence on the third beat of the second measure.

Very nice harmony by the way. Gotta love T.M. or "Melodious Thunk" as his wife called him.

Cb was my guess earlier.

To add to the comments about harmony, G sharp and A flat may be the same note and pitch to a pianist, but in actual fact, G sharp is slightly flatter than A flat. A violinist would actually play them in different pitch (even though the difference is very small). Unlike the piano, the violin is not limited to 12 keys in an octave.

It's nice that we're both thinking the same thing .I write very slowly, and began the post before yours arrived .

I wasn't too swift myself when I started writing an hour earlier, since I went into a fair amount of detail. But it's no big deal. The Cb was pretty obvious in an all-flats environment. The thing is that when you are playing by ear and you plonk that chord down in your right hand, you will automatically associate it with a B chord. Who is going to think "Cb" automatically? And that is probably how it got written down that way.

I was wondering about that. I can understand if you're playing solo or in a quartet but how do you guys accompany a piano or any other instrument with fixed pitches?

I made the most elementary thing: transposing a minor second down . Is a result logical?

http://violinmasterclass.com/en/masterclasses/intonation

Scroll down to "Which intonation to use when".

The decisions are also musical. Pitch itself becomes an expressive device. The leading tone being played sharper, less than a semitone from the tonic, will enhance the feeling of resolution. Playing something duller or sharper may add something to the emotion. I think in Art of the Violin, either Perlman or Gitlis talks about that, but I can't find it.

It exists in a little degree штpiano- not electronic! Less than a soft touch cut off some of the lower spectrum sound, creating the effect of a small increase in pitch. For string players and singers 1/4 - 1/5 tone - child's play.

Playing slightly sharper on the leading note before the tonic is a classic technique, especially in minor keys. There are times violinists would purposely play a note slightly flatter to get a different colour or mood. These are some of the things violinists exploit but not avail to pianists.

It is absolutely pointless to talk about the notation here without a few more bars. Where is he going next?

Ab7 to some kind of B chord is absolutely logical if you are going to continue in the key of B or continue mostly in sharps.

Monk takes the idea of "tonal" right to the Twilight Zone, so no traditional rules of notation are going to fully fit.