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I want a clarification of accidentals.
Example: Within a measure. Does the accidental only apply to the same octave.
Is this ever changed by some musicians?

Yes! Only the same octave.

Do some composers or musicians ever vary from this rule?

I have not seen any deviations from this rule, not in traditional classical music at least. Were there any, they would lead to total confusion.

Regards,

Thanks Bruce and Eric for the information.

That is not necessarily correct.

An octave is, by definition, 8 notes. That means, according to the rule stated above, a C natural octave played in the key of A major would only have the upper or lower C indicated as natural and the player would be expected to know that the other note is also a natural without so indicating.

If by octave, you mean 7 notes, the rule applies and is more simply stated - 'An accidental applies ONLY to the line or space on which it occurs within the same measure.'

This rule is not inviolate however. In some modern music the accidental only applies to the single note. The next same spaced or lined note would not have the previous accidental apply. In other modern music the accidental applies to all notes of the same pitch class within the measure, for example all Cs from C0 to C8.

Ok, then how do we know when to apply the rule. Does modern music differ from classical in this regard?

For most music that you will play, the rule - 'An accidental applies ONLY to the line or space on which it occurs within the same measure.' is all you need to know.

No, contemporary music or otherwise keeps the same rule: The accidental applies only the same octave.

HOWEVER, the problem arises with computer software and the use of the 8va symbol. You see if you have the same note at the same pitch, then the software will automatically NOT show the 2nd accidental (which you have to hit, even if only for playback reasons). Then adding the 8va symbol above WILL change the pitch to the higher octave, but the accidental will remain hidden.

There's been a few cases of that and one needs to be careful over such things.

Thanks prout, Nikolas and all for comments.

No, it does not. If you are in A major, you see a C octave and only the top note has a natural sign on it, then you play a C# and a C-natural together.

The only difference in some modern works is that the accidental only applies to one note and has no effect afterwards. If that composer then wants to repeat the C# then he will write a sharp on every note.

I must confess that I find the use of the word 'octave' in this discussion disturbing.

Both Eric399 and Nikolas say 'the rule applies within the same octave'. I don't know school of music you guys went to, but the one I attended taught me that an octave, and the notes WITHIN the octave stretch from one letter name the the same letter name above or below - C to C , F# to F# and so on.

The basic rule of accidentals DOES NOT APPLY TO SAME NOTES WITHIN THE OCTAVE.

The basic rule of accidentals APPLIES ONLY TO THE LINE OR SPACE ON WHICH THE NOTES OCCUR WITHIN THE SAME MEASURE.

Sorry to shout but you guys are spreading mis-information.

I don't think that there is an intentional dissemination of information here, but I do agree with prout that the accidental applies only to the line or space on which the notes occur within the measure. If, in the same measure, there is an octave of the note, that octave requires an accidental as well.

I'm looking, for example, at the third movement of Grieg's piano concerto where (Grainger edition) in measure 8 there is a sharp in front of each G in the descending scale even though two of those G's are on the same space immediately above the treble staff, but required because the first G has an 8va. sympol above it.

Further at orchestra mark B in the same movement where the pianist has a series of rising broken chords alternating from hand to hand, the same note within the same measure has an accidental in front of it each time because the first time the B-flat (below middle C) is played with the right hand and is written below the leger line middle C and the second time it is played with the left hand in the space immediately above the bass clef; same note, but re-confirmed because of the change of clef.

In Liszt's "Un sospiro", measure 30, there is an A with a natural in the left hand; the same A is repeated immediately after in the right hand, and the accidental is also repeated. The accidentals in this measure (giving a momentary tonality of F major in the key of A major) are repeated as the passage rises not "within the octave" but at each octave; they are not repeated - not necessary - as the passage descends within the same measure.

We can find - in most of the literature, but not necessarily in very contemporary literature - so many examples of this notation that it should be considered the rule: the accidental applies only to the note on the line or space within the measure. Any other repetition of the note at another octave within the measure requires another accidental.

Regards,

Thanks BruceD,

but my pedantic crisis is with idea that somehow an octave is comprised of either 7 diatonic notes or 12 chromatic ones.

According to several posters here, my training since the age of 5 and my own lecturing at university level has been based on a falsehood. I am thus embarrassed and contrite.

In my defense I offer:

A 'week' is usually defined as seven days, so stating 'within the week' implies 7 days.
Edit: I must offer up the liturgical 'octave of Christmas' however, which is considered a span of eight days.

An 'octave' is defined, in musical terms, as two notes separated in base frequency by a factor of two, and thus share the same 'pitch class' and note name. Therefore, 'within the octave' means within 8 diatonic or 13 chromatic notes.

I love being pedantic.

Lately I'm seeing cases where an accidental is missing in what is obviously an octave-higher transposition of the passage before.

As Nikolas wrote, this is most likely a software issue.

To Prout's:
I think that often explanations are not well thought through in our learning. An octave is an interval of 8 consecutive notes going from note 1 to note 2, and as a P8, those notes will have the same note name, and we could think of them as C4 and C5 for example. That's what an octave is. It's an interval.

The question here is actually about when a note name has an accidental, and if the same note name occurs in a different register, does that accidental apply. Automatically if you have a same note name, those note names will be apart by the distance of n octaves.

Meanwhile on any instrument we tend to practise playing a scale for 1, 2, or more octaves, so C major from C to C; Db major from Db to Db etc. It would feel disconcerting to play the C scale up to B and then back down again, as it would feel incomplete, the B being a leading tone. So we may create an association of a scale as being "an octave". The notes of a scale comprise 7 notes, not 8, and for a major scale that spans an interval of an M7. But we always perceive a scale within the span of a whole octave, just because we're used to it.

(An interesting side note for you to bring up).

Btw, I agree that the statement about "within the octave" is incorrect and misleading.

To add to the confusion, to indicate a week from Saturday the French will say: "Samedi en huit"! (Eight days from Saturday.) What do the Germans, Italians, Spaniards say?

Regards,

Off hand I'd say "den kommenden Samstag", or, if it's Saturday and you want to meet the following Saturday, "naechsten Samstag".

prout: I don't see the reason for you to BE SHOUTING!

In MIDI there's C3 and C4. They belong to a different 'octave'. Take it as it is and don't feel so disturbed: It's bad for the health!

I spent decades flying. Precision in communication was drilled into us all.

If the controller said (to avoid a collision) "Turn left right now!" Which way do you turn? Most pilots turn to the last direction (right) heard. Unfortunately that exact statement was made many decades ago and two aircraft collided. Controllers have a manual that precisely limits what they can and cannot say. Now a controller will say "Turn left immediately!"

While death will not seek out the errant pianist who plays a C#4 and a C#5, when only C#4 had the accidental, she may go to her grave wondering why she got such poor reviews - after all, she was only following the rules she was taught.