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That's about the level of most piano students when they quit. Now, imagine if that is where the bar is set for reading language? But that's what we are up against. I just finished a lesson with a high school senior who just started with me about two months ago. When he started with me he did not know a single line or space in either clef. He did not know the letter names of the keys. He is just learning NOW what a key signature is. He thought the name of one sharp (F) is the key. What is frightening is that neither the parent nor the student had a clue that nothing was being learned, and he was with the previous teacher for at least two years. This is by no means unusual where I live. In fact, it is more the norm. How depressing...
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Gary:
California recently got rid of its high school exit exam, so now kids who can't read at the 8th-grade level or do Algebra are now "allowed" to graduate from high school, if they somehow are able to pass enough classes to meet their school's minimum requirements. And each school and/or district gets to set its own "requirements."
Back in my public school teaching days, I got extra pay to work with students who were in danger of failing the exit exam. It will shock you to learn what these high school kids cannot read or understand through reading.
What is the threshold for literacy, anyway? Reading at the 4th-grade level? 7th-grade level?
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Gary,
That is actually the level that many people who learn second languages reach. People take maybe 3 classes of Spanish and learn 400 words (no data - just estimated on top of my head). Some take it to the next level, but most drop it right there and still be unable to hold a conversation.
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Gary,
That is actually the level that many people who learn second languages reach. People take maybe 3 classes of Spanish and learn 400 words (no data - just estimated on top of my head). Some take it to the next level, but most drop it right there and still be unable to hold a conversation. Not in OTHER countries. This is "American exceptionalism" at it's very worst. I had just that kind of Spanish instruction myself, in high school. I nearly flunked, and I should have. Now I read at least three languages, NO thanks to our incredibly awful school system.
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Language teachers who focus on language acquisition do much better with students--though the present testing craze encourages memorizing vocabulary, texts, and grammar and not language proficiency. Good music teaching and good foreign language teaching have a lot in common: understanding and fluency with basic components and patterns, personal engagement and desire to communicate, willingness to practice and patiently acquire skills, tolerance for imperfection and love of the process.
Hailun HG 178, Charles Walter 1500, Kawai CA63
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If you don't mind, I'd like to highlight some things that struck me, that could be missed since they come later on: That's about the level of most piano students when they quit. Now, imagine if that is where the bar is set for reading language? But that's what we are up against. I just finished a lesson with a high school senior who just started with me about two months ago. When he started with me he did not know a single line or space in either clef. He did not know the letter names of the keys. He is just learning NOW what a key signature is. He thought the name of one sharp (F) is the key. What is frightening is that neither the parent nor the student had a clue that nothing was being learned, and he was with the previous teacher for at least two years.This is by no means unusual where I live. In fact, it is more the norm. So this is not a student who has had only 3 or 4 lessons elsewhere, or who began with you, but had two years of lessons. Nor are you comparing it to learning a foreign language (which I think is often taught quite badly and ineffectively). You're comparing it to the basic literacy kids get in school. The 2 years is an interesting coincidence since I taught grade 2 and am picturing what my students could do in terms of reading by the end of that grade. How is this happening? I can imagine that maybe the teachers of these students have them go "through" pieces that become more complex, i.e. at a "higher grade" so that the parent and student get an impression of progress. If the music is choreographed, taught by rote or imitation, maybe with recordings to copy (don't some method books now include recordings?), memorized. The "goal" being not that of giving skills, but to "pass" pieces. He thought the name of one sharp (F) is the key. Maybe (what happened) - getting to the first piece in G major, quickly mentioning to remember the F#, without enough time to really get at the concept, so that the student registers "something about F# here" and that's as far as it goes. So what's the solution? Are teachers in other areas getting students coming in with similar things too? I think I have read about this kind of thing before, from various teachers in different geographical and socio-economic areas.
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He is just learning NOW what a key signature is. He thought the name of one sharp (F) is the key.
Maybe (what happened) - getting to the first piece in G major, quickly mentioning to remember the F#, without enough time to really get at the concept, so that the student registers "something about F# here" and that's as far as it goes. When I was running a Praise & Worship band (not really my thing, but they needed it done, so I obliged) we had a woman who would occasionally sit in and play piano. She was hands down the most deft and fluent amateur pianist I've ever run into. She did not read music and she only played one style, evangelical type hymns by ear only. And, only within the key she knew for that piece. But within those limitations she played really well. So we would roll out the Clavinova and I would set the transpose function to match the actual key we were doing. The first time that was a struggle. She told me "I do this in the key of G." Nope, it was Eb, but the tune started on the third degree. It turned out she usually called the starting note of any piece the key. Sometimes that was the tonic, sometimes the fifth, and sometimes she didn't even use the starting note but some random note she remembered. I always had to have her play a bit of each piece and figure out what she was doing, then figure how many steps to where the band would be. (she also numbered her fingers backwards) Sorry for the diversion, I now return you to your regular program.
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He is just learning NOW what a key signature is. He thought the name of one sharp (F) is the key.
Maybe (what happened) - getting to the first piece in G major, quickly mentioning to remember the F#, without enough time to really get at the concept, so that the student registers "something about F# here" and that's as far as it goes. When I was running a Praise & Worship band (not really my thing, but they needed it done, so I obliged) we had a woman who would occasionally sit in and play piano. She was hands down the most deft and fluent amateur pianist I've ever run into. She did not read music and she only played one style, evangelical type hymns by ear only. And, only within the key she knew for that piece. But within those limitations she played really well. So we would roll out the Clavinova and I would set the transpose function to match the actual key we were doing. The first time that was a struggle. She told me "I do this in the key of G." Nope, it was Eb, but the tune started on the third degree. It turned out she usually called the starting note of any piece the key. Sometimes that was the tonic, sometimes the fifth, and sometimes she didn't even use the starting note but some random note she remembered. I always had to have her play a bit of each piece and figure out what she was doing, then figure how many steps to where the band would be. (she also numbered her fingers backwards) Sorry for the diversion, I now return you to your regular program. Tim, I'm not sure what this has to do with anything we are talking about. Musicians who do not read but who play very well is really a totally different topic. It's a bit like talking about brilliant orators who can't read a word of a language. Interesting, but a very different discussion.
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Yeah, sorry, got off on a SQUIRREL tangent. I'm prone to that.
Actually though I wasn't thinking so much about her not reading, but about her playing being entirely physical. She didn't know what a key signature was, what an accidental was, how a chord is spelled - none of the mental content that to me makes things fit together and make sense. She lacked even the most basic theory knowledge. For me when I learned some really simple stuff, like what a major triad is, light bulbs went on, connections were made, things got easier.
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So this is not a student who has had only 3 or 4 lessons elsewhere, or who began with you, but had two years of lessons.
Correct. I have not one but four students right now who had multiple years of private lessons before me and who could not find lines and spaces and could not adequately name the keys on the piano with letters. This is not unusual. Anyone can start "teaching" piano tomorrow, with zero ability to play or to teach. Nor are you comparing it to learning a foreign language (which I think is often taught quite badly and ineffectively).
I am, though, saying that foreign language, as it is taught in the schools here, is about level with the way piano is taught here, with private lessons. The results for both, on average, are horrendous. You're comparing it to the basic literacy kids get in school. The 2 years is an interesting coincidence since I taught grade 2 and am picturing what my students could do in terms of reading by the end of that grade.
Yes. If you look what the average kid in school is able to do with reading his/her native language by 8th grade and then compare that to what the average kid can do at the piano by 8th grade after several years of piano lessons, the results are not even close. Thus "Green Eggs and Ham". We don't expect an 8th grader to be stuck on the level of easy books written for people who barely read. It happens sometimes because of problems, but it is not the norm. I remember when the Harry Potter books were really big, and I'd see fairly little kids reading "The Sorcerer's Stone" then going on to devour the other books. That was not uncommon. By that age I was devouring Bach, Chopin, Mozart, Beethoven and so on, at least the easier compositions by by these composers. I wasn't playing 4 yours a day. I didn't spend my whole life at the piano, and I didn't have to give things up. It all happened because I stumbled into reading music fast, which allowed me to learn it very fast, which allowed me to explore music at will. How is this happening? I can imagine that maybe the teachers of these students have them go "through" pieces that become more complex, i.e. at a "higher grade" so that the parent and student get an impression of progress. If the music is choreographed, taught by rote or imitation, maybe with recordings to copy (don't some method books now include recordings?), memorized. The "goal" being not that of giving skills, but to "pass" pieces.
The way you achieve success reading music is the same thing you do with reading your first language. You don't worry about perfection. You aim for fluency. Think of the difference between a 1st grader and a 12th grader. You do not expect the 12th grader to be struggling hard to "sound out" words or learn the meanings of new words. As books/materials become more advanced, the ability of the student is supposed to increase so that there is a smooth transition each year. Your level is about how long it takes to learn a page of music on any level. And yes, many teachers just perfect "pieces" or "pages" until they finally work. That creates the illusion of progress because most people have no idea what is really going on. But using this method, what happens when you give something new and challenging, then say: "Go home, study this, and show me what you can do over the next week." Most students will come back having done nearly zero on their own because they have no idea HOW to work on their own. They do not have the skills to learn something from scratch. And they never will. This is why I compare most of what I see in piano instruction to most of what I see in foreign language instruction. I've seen/heard what my students can do with a foreign language, and they can't do anything. They can't read it and understand it, which is actually the easy part. They certainly can't speak it or write it. He thought the name of one sharp (F) is the key. Maybe (what happened) - getting to the first piece in G major, quickly mentioning to remember the F#, without enough time to really get at the concept, so that the student registers "something about F# here" and that's as far as it goes.
It's worse. This guy had no idea what that "thing" (meaning the # sign) meant. He didn't know that the sharp was on the 4th line. He didn't know what part of the # sign we look at. He was simply clueless. So what's the solution? Are teachers in other areas getting students coming in with similar things too? I think I have read about this kind of thing before, from various teachers in different geographical and socio-economic areas.
I don't know from this topic or this forum, because even with so few topics being opened here, no one weighed in. I have to assume that most people think I am either making this stuff up, or that it is not really a problem.
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I don't know from this topic or this forum, because even with so few topics being opened here, no one weighed in. I have to assume that most people think I am either making this stuff up, or that it is not really a problem. You learned fluency and you teach fluency. You run into students who are clueless despite years of lessons, and the average piano student probably quits before developing any level of skill. Certainly my kids did (though they did derive some benefits). It is obvious why unqualified teachers fail. But do you think there is something different in the methodology of how you learned from that of traditional piano lessons? In other words, is it just a problem with bad teachers, or is there a gap in pedagogy?
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So what's the solution? Are teachers in other areas getting students coming in with similar things too? I think I have read about this kind of thing before, from various teachers in different geographical and socio-economic areas.
I don't know from this topic or this forum, because even with so few topics being opened here, no one weighed in. I have to assume that most people think I am either making this stuff up, or that it is not really a problem. Of all the transfer students I've taken in, only 1 has come in knowing what I think what was appropriate for the level they said they were. There is a voice student I accompany that has started teaching piano to little kids. I'm afraid that she will be teaching kids who will be close to clueless because she has had no training in teaching beginners, and probably doesn't know what a beginner piano student is supposed to be capable of. I was thinking of offering her some pedagogy lessons because it is unlikely she will stop teaching. I do wonder about the self-learning aspect. Sometimes I send a student home to learn a piece by themselves, and it doesn't come back as well as if I had gone through it with them first. Usually counting is off, and I had a case earlier this week where all the notes were wrong (she played fifths instead of sixths) and the student played through the entire piece with it sounding horrible. It didn't occur to her to double check the notes she was playing... It's not like I teach them every single note either on the pieces we start in the lessons, I just make sure that when they leave they've corrected what they would have continued to do incorrectly.
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I do wonder about the self-learning aspect. I think there is an as yet unmentioned concept of teaching students how to do this self-learning. It would include tools like reading skills, and I think also how to approach a piece in stages, in order for that self-learning to evolve.
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I do wonder about the self-learning aspect. I think there is an as yet unmentioned concept of teaching students how to do this self-learning. It would include tools like reading skills, and I think also how to approach a piece in stages, in order for that self-learning to evolve. Students can't self-learn until they have learned skills over time. It's like giving someone a car and telling them to self-learn to drive, in traffic.
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Music teachers who focus on musical literacy do much better with students--though the present testing craze encourages memorizing a certain number of pieces and technical drills and not musical proficiency. Good music teaching and good foreign language teaching have a lot in common: understanding and fluency with basic components and patterns, personal engagement and desire to communicate, willingness to practice and patiently acquire skills, tolerance for imperfection and love of the process. I may have wriiten something awkwardly because I teach foreign language and not music. I know, however, that my students did pretty well because I taught "less" but with lots and lots of practice to achieve fluency with basic patterns. And we discussed and modeled how to learn FL and had fun with the process. Students couldn't teach themselves--they were clueless at first and needed continual guidance. Teachers need to do more than just cover material. It's a balancing act to ensure regular short-term successes while holding fast to the long-term goal. -IMHO, because only a piano student...
Hailun HG 178, Charles Walter 1500, Kawai CA63
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Music teachers who focus on musical literacy do much better with students--though the present testing craze encourages memorizing a certain number of pieces and technical drills and not musical proficiency.
When have things been better? When in the past were a higher percentage of beginning piano players able to move to an independent level, continuing to learn more difficult music successfully with less and less guidance? I'm looking back decades, and I just don't see it. Teachers need to do more than just cover material. It's a balancing act to ensure regular short-term successes while holding fast to the long-term goal.
Yes, but everything in our society, at least in the US, works against this. You teach foreign language, so let me give you one personal experience: I watched my music students who were taking foreign language, what books they used, what they were expected to learn. I was learning German myself while a few of my students were taking German in high school. Through one of those students I got the books he was using. I also got books from two other students (through teachers) so I had not one but three complete textbook series. I watched the progress of these students, in language, and they did the usual memorization and drills. They were - in my opinion - learning nothing (just as I learned nothing in high school with Spanish.) I read everything in all of these textbooks, mostly just absorbing vocabulary, and I ordered books for little kids from Germany. That's mostly all I did, though I did a lot of listening. A few years later I was reading anything and everything in German. I did not do much work in nailing down basics (grammar and such) until I had fluency. At that point the rest was literally child's play. I finally took a college level course with the idea of tightening things up. In that course I watch a whole class of college students get nowhere with a textbook that was far too condensed, something that tried to get to a good level in one year. (And of course it failed.) So I watched our educational system in action. It's awful. Has it gotten better? No. That was nearly 30 years ago. Things have gotten much worse. What is happening in piano instruction parallels this.
Last edited by Gary D.; 11/30/16 03:17 PM.
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So, what type of instruction does succeed?
Sports? Yes, it develops athletes capable of superhuman feats of strength and coordination.
So maybe we could look at sports instruction, but on the other hand there is a huge amount of weeding out going on at the lower levels. Not everyone who tries baseball ever succeeds in throwing a ball hard or hitting pitches. So I'm uncertain here.
What I am certain of is video games. We might dismiss them as time wasters but there is an incredible level of focused attention that is learned, as well as multi-tasking, fine motor coordination, strategy, etc. And, believe it or not, kids put in the hours to master it voluntarily!
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............What I am certain of is video games. We might dismiss them as time wasters but there is an incredible level of focused attention that is learned, as well as multi-tasking, fine motor coordination, strategy, etc. And, believe it or not, kids put in the hours to master it voluntarily! Except that (in my experience) it becomes an end unto itself and rarely leads to anything productive. All those hours spent learning and mastering video games is time taken from doing other things--practicing piano, for example. It's like when they add new subjects or requirements in school. They don't create new hours in the day to accommodate the extra requirement. That time comes at the expense of something else.
Yamaha C3X In summer, the song sings itself. --William Carlos Williams
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--mostly OT--
Gary D.
I completely understand your experiences and agree with your observations about foreign language learning. However, there are teachers and schools of thought of FL teaching (check out Fluency Fast, Teaching Proficiency Through Storytelling and Reading-TPRS, and Comprehensible Input for starters) that are quite effective with average students in schools.
I thought the FL field opened up and instruction improved during the late-90s and afterwards, but now,"accountability"-- which sounds good--leans towards easily measured progress markers. This discourages teachers working the gray areas of "proficiency." It's sad because, overall, it's a big setback in academic FL learning. Of course there are great FL teachers and programs, and I hope for the current negative trend, that "this too shall pass."
I could write reams about this (I have) but too depressing for me right now and OT for PWF.
re: good teaching
I don't know much about music teaching but I would say good teaching is researched, eclectic, non-ideological, practical, and personal. Throw in some experimentation and a little magic (for motivation). I would never denigrate any method or approach. Why not mix it up and find out what works at a certain time and stage? There are some kids who really benefit from those grammar texts. Older students (certainly high school) can be encouraged to experiment too and, with guidance, discover what works well for themselves.
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............What I am certain of is video games. We might dismiss them as time wasters but there is an incredible level of focused attention that is learned, as well as multi-tasking, fine motor coordination, strategy, etc. And, believe it or not, kids put in the hours to master it voluntarily! Except that (in my experience) it becomes an end unto itself and rarely leads to anything productive. All those hours spent learning and mastering video games is time taken from doing other things--practicing piano, for example. True, but I hope you're not missing the point I'm trying to make. Kids succeed at mastering video games. They don't succeed at other subjects. I'm not claiming that is a useful success. What I'm saying is we should not neglect examining the principles that underlie that success just because video games aren't a priority for us personally. (I don't play them myself, they have no appeal for me.) What is there about the real time at tempo practice, the reinforcement schedule, the multisensory stimulus, I don't know, whatever it is.
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