Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Adult Beginners Forum Right index knuckle issue

hi everybody,

ok I'll try to explain something that is happening to my right hand, and I'll try to do it as good as I can as English is not my mother language and the whole issue is somewhat complicated to explain.

I've been learning to play the piano on my own for a year or so, using tutorials, courses, methods and so on, but I'd yet no guidance from a proper teacher (gotta do it as soon as I can though).

I've come across an uncomfortable issue with my right hand, specifically with my right index, it seems the finger has no strenght on its own (even though I'm right handed), but my left one is strong and can play fast and easily a single note in a proper curved way without collapsing.
My right index however, when I try to play a single note, repeatedly and fast, collapses at the knuckle, and I got the feeling I'm totally out of strength in the whole finger, and I can't help but collapse it downwards...

here's a video I recorded, You can't really appreciate the feeling I get when I play with the right index but tries to show the issue so you can get a better idea...

knuckle video

Same thing happens to me when I'm typing on my pc keyboard, I got the feeling I do bizarre things with my index. I'm starting to think I got a 'learned dysfunction' maybe due to the use of the pc mouse or the xbox handle, but that's just musing.

Im not sure what's the origin of the problem, lack of strenght, lack of independency... but even the most simple exercise makes me collapse the finger and I'm sure I should fix this problem before getting to more difficult exercises...
I bought some exercises by Schmitt but I was wondering... what do you guys think is the problem? Which is the most effective exercise for getting my right index in shape just as my left one is? I'm going crazy with this issue and feel powerless about it!

thanks for trying to understand the problem,
pablo

Why do you lower your whole right hand and arm, as an afterthought each time?
You don't do it with your left hand...look at the video.

Initially, it looks almost right anyway.
Try playing shorter notes and add something else with other fingers, to break the habit.

A trip to the quack is in order here. There`s a tendon pr joint problem which needs sorting. Might be slipping out of position when force is applied. I had something similar when I got something called trigger finger. It has everything to do with computer mouse overuse, and also arthritis. . . wish you well.

Maybe the teachers here can advise but have you tried simply letting your hand fall? Don't try to press down. Just let it fall and hold the key down with your index. You don't need to put any strength into it. You're also doing the tiger grip thing with your right hand, which I think is a bigger problem than the collapsing joint.

Hi guys.thanks for the feedback!
RaggedKeyPresser, not really sure why I lower my arm. I guess it is just the way that comes out naturally... I tried to be as natural as I could to show the problem. As I said theres a moment I cant help but lowering my knuckle until it collapses

Peterws. I think youre right. Theres something phisically wrong in this whole issue. I had surgery on my right thumb when I was a little boy... trigger thumb... my thumb would get locked when flexing it and it hurted a lot. But since I got it fixed when I was 2 or 3 y.o. Ive had no more problems. No pain. No nothing... but it may be the origin of the whole issue. Only thing I got left was this scar



Qazsedcfr, whats exactly the tiger grip?
Ill try doing as you say, guess that way the finger doesnt play in a forced way... but shouldnt I also look for the mastery of this simple single movement in the video? I just want to mimic the way my left index plays the key !!!

Heres another video where I play faster. There are obviously bizarre funny things with my right hand.

knuckle video 2


Thanks a lot for all the replies and ideas!
Pablo

Maybe what happens with your finger is that the first joint can't bend? (Que no puedes doblar la primera falange, la que está más cerca de la uña).

Hi Albunea, umm... As far as I know there are no issues with my joints, I mean, they all have normal mobility (right and left indexes bend normally and in a correct way when I'm off the piano)...

I know that what I'm asking for is maybe a full diagnosis and it's quite difficult without a previous exam, but I just thought this was a more common problem, obviously it's not

(vamos, que ambos dedos, izquierdo y derecho se articulan de forma correcta y sin diferencias significativas entre ellos, jeje)

+1 and not just any doctor. You need a hand specialist, preferably one who works with musicians. What city do you live in? Perhaps someone here will know a doctor, though that's a long shot.

I had weakness in the same knuckle that just got worse over a year of self learning.

I went to a teacher who specializes in the Taubman approach of playing the piano. That made a world of difference although it has been just a few months of simple mechanics training...

Do a search at pianoworld.com and look at some youtube videos to get an idea what this is about. Given your background, I would have a specialized doctor take a look then consider a piano teacher who specializes in injuries.

You don't want to quit because of an injury you can potentially resolve now.

https://golandskyinstitute.org/teachers/

thanks again for your comments... JohnSprung, I live in southern Spain, Cordoba, not sure if I'm gonna find a specialist for this specific issue here, but I can try (I mean, we have good specialists but a musician-oriented traumatologist may be more difficult to find)

newerplayer, did you have a physical problem with your knuckle or was it more a mechanical problem (that is, like a learnt bad habit)?

Problem is I'm doing this piano thing as a hobby (although it's something I've ever wanted to do since I was a child and I've been finally been able to do it now that I'm almost 40 ), and spending time and money with doctors and highly specialized teachers may not be an option for me

I'll keep you updated about it, thanks a lot for your help!!!

Look up Jaak Sikk, and go through his first lessons slowly, taking time. This will help you understand how your hands function on the piano. The introductory overview by PianoOlogist will give you an idea of how the whole body works together.
What I'm seeing is that you seem to be doing something different with each hand - not just that the hand is behaving differently - and it is very normal for us to be using our hands differently. It's like you are pushing weight into your knuckles by lowering the arm and its weight into that poor finger, but you are not doing so with the left arm and hand. (Someone else wrote a similar observation). There may be nothing wrong with the hand or finger itself.
Jaak's first course is free, and even the second series costs almost nothing if you figure how much you get out of it. He responds to videos with his own video responses, giving his observations. That is, the idea is to work on the lessons he gives, working in the manner he proposes, and the feedback comes after that.

Muscles can't push they only contract. If you have it in your head that you are pushing keys down (which is certainly what you are doing in the vid) then things will go wrong.

We bring about key depression by changing the shape of our fingers (scratching, caressing, wiping) or hand (what you're attempting - moving from the knuckle - which is more common). In your case a weakness prevents the latter so go with the former.

One other thing that is a bit difficult to see from your video is: Are you sitting at the right height?
It seems like you might be sitting too low relative to the keyboard. Your wrist seems a bit too low.
Try a slightly higher seating and come down into the keys from more above.
Do that lightly for some time and see if you can gradually build up more strength in the hand that way, if there is a weakness somewhere.

And yes, check on the symmetry between the two hands. Obviously they should be the same.

pabletek, I just didn't see anything in your video and wondered about what I told you, but I am not a natural for these things. I know I am doing something wrong myself and don't know what either. Espero que encuentres la solución.

thanks for all your comments!

I'll look for Jaak Sikk next days and we'll see if this makes any difference for me, hope so

RaggedKeyPresser, the distance between my elbow and the floor right now is the same as the distance between the upper surface of the keys and the floor... is that correct? I'll try to use a higher seating though...

one curious thing is that if I use a tennis ball below my right hand, I mean, if I play the key with my curved hand resting on the ball, the weakness and the bizarre sensation almost disappears and the key playing gets almost normal...

anyway, thanks again for all your posts and ideas, I'll start working on them!
Gracias Albunea!
pablo

I didn't have time last night to provide links. Here is the one to Jaak's course:
http://playingpianoblog.com/
There's a sign-up on the right, and that gets you straight into the first month's set of lessons. He first gives an overview of the body as a whole, sitting (and being able to move while sitting), the relaxed hand, analogy to walking etc. The very next thing involves where to feel "support" in the hand / finger, and the first exercise is a simple piece that is played by one finger - each finger in turn - to get the sense of that support. Then the exchange between two fingers, and it moves on from there. Actual motion of the fingers themselves comes several lessons in. I worked with his course and sent videos in last year - there were observations of things I simply did not see or think of.

PianoOlogist does not respond to videos afaik, but he has created a series of videos - about 40 of them (!) His focus is different. He introduces an exploration of how the body works, part by part, then in combination of two things working together, then more - having you explore both what feels comfortable and what doesn't (and why). He seems to have a fair background behind him.
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL21598D1259C2C8EE

It's not curious at all. This is what I meant with my observation about "tiger grip". The arch of your hand is collapsing and that's creating tension. Check out John Mortensen's videos where he talks about the hand arch and many other interesting piano technique subjects:
https://m.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL753730BB176690A0

PM sent.

can't really express my gratitud for all your help guys!

I'll surely sign in for the free course and probabley continue with the whole year if the first month makes any difference in my playing. Will look into pianoologist too for sure, thanks for the links keystring.

Thank you Quzsedcft, I will check out his videos too.. I got a bunch of nice stuff now waiting for me to put it in practice!

I'll keep you updated

Just a curiosity. In the first video he tells us to get one hand straight and the other curved and "fight" each other. The curved hand is supposed to win. Not in my case! Did you try it, any of you?