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Hello!
I am about to buy a piano - ok, just to grab and move the piano. It is for free. It is an old Scholze (Georgswalde - Czech Republic) from 30's, 190cm (6,3 feet) long. Nobody played it last 15 years and it has been played 2 times since 1978. It is quite ugly, the lacquer is in bad shape overall, 12 cats peed on the legs and pedals. The hammers need to be changed. But the resonance bottom has NO cracks whatsoever, it is just very dirty. The action is quality concert action, great feel. And the sound is amazing for the age and state of the piano, soft but strong with huge bass and velvet discants. Ok, nobody tuned it since 1978.

The biggest problem: a string bar between string anchors and the bridge has fallen off. The strings in that section are tuned lower, pressing more on the resonance. How to fix it? I know that all of the strings has to be loosen. But do I need an extra measuring to put the bar back? Or is it just to put the bar there on the edge of the frame and hope for the best?

Pictures of the fail here (taken in the dark):
http://stehlik.t-hosting.cz/scholze1.jpg
http://stehlik.t-hosting.cz/scholze2.jpg

And here is whole photogalery of the piano:
https://goo.gl/photos/q1yp2RMpRd8zCkSM6

Thank you for answer. I don't want to read "leave it to an expert" or so. The piano will be my playground, I have already experience with maintaining piano - my school tuner taught me a lot and I had one piano to work with.

Mirek

A free piano is never free. That piano needs to be restrung. Were the cats peeing inside the piano as well? I've seen that before.

Welcome to the Czech Republic. We play concerts on pianos like this. Last summer I played a concert for 350 people on a 100 years old baby grand piano that had original strings and hammers like this one. I can choose to buy a grand for $1000 in this state (maybe a bit optically better) or take this one for free. Or to pay $5000 for renewed one but that's expensive and I won't learn anything.
The strings are not rusty except last C8. I know it is a good idea to restring it but heh, not now!
The piano was closed and the cats are a new thing in the apartment (the old lady decided to take care for dying cats from abandoned cat home). Somebody probably spilled something on it (also some shits on the resonance) - the piano was used as a working place of a composer. The composer always kept the same temperature in the room for the piano.

Well, back to my question. How to put that bar back? Should it be extra measured or is it just to put the bar back when the strings are loosen?

Thanks

I would try to figure out what made it pop out in the first place... For example, does the surface it sits on have a really steep downward slope? Does it look like it was glued down and the glue failed? Basically you may have to do something to get the thing to stay put.

The other concern is, what will happen to the downbearing in that section once the bar is replaced? Maybe someone deliberately knocked that bar out to get more downbearing (if so they were in a hurry if they left it sitting on the soundboard!).

P.S. Thanks for sharing your adventures with us. It's interesting to read about what pianos are like in different places.

Nathan, thank you very much for your answer.

Looks like it was glued or it was holding just by friction. I am worried that the surface under is not flat - that's why it slipped off. I would put it on the flat surface - if it doesn't have to be EXACTLY in the right spot. Basically, I am asking about the lenght of string sections and about overtones. Because if it is not needed to be exact there, I would do everything by myself. In the worst case just to put the bar next to the place where it slipped off (and pray for the best that the bridge is still higher).

I can say that it was not made by a tuner. It slipped off itselfs. The tune is lower in that area. And I can't imagine that somebody else but went there and perfectly snapped off the bar.

I can't check properly the piano now - the piano is still with the lady and I will probably move it in the next 14 days.

P.S.: I am happy you like my crazy story.

The string rest does not need to be placed in the original position. You will need appropriate tools to let the tension down and slip the rest back in place and then return the strings to tension. Better find a piano technician. Barring any other problems, a days work could fix this and leave the piano in decent tune.

Are you able to correctly replace strings if they break while you're doing this? There's a decent chance that will happen. If you can replace them it's no big deal, but if you can't...

One last thing, if you decide to go ahead with the operation. You may need to lower the tension *a lot* to get the string rest back in there. You need to take seriously the stresses you put on the string frame (the cast iron plate) when you raise and lower the tension on an entire section like this!! Whenever you remove the tension on a string, the adjacent strings go sharp, i.e. tension increases. This is because the removed string is no longer pressing down on the soundboard or compressing the frame. If you only remove the tension on a single string, it's no big deal. But do it carelessly to an entire section and you risk serious problems, including breaking the plate! So you need to at least taper off the tension change outside of the section you're working on. I.e. if you need to lower the section you're fixing by a whole turn of the pin, you should lower at the adjacent octaves by a half a turn, maybe a quarter turn for the most distant notes. Also, as you're doing this you want to lower every other (or every 3rd) string as a first pass, then go back and do another pass on the pins you skipped. Same thing applies when you're raising the tension back up. There are over 30000 lbs (133000 newtons) of tension on a strung piano frame. Do not take chances!

This is also a good time to check that all of the screws/bolts securing the plate down are snug. Sometimes the wood compression over time leaves them loose enough that you can tighten them down another quarter turn or so. If it's more than a half turn loose, stop and figure out what's going on! The plate might not be anchored under that screw and you could be flexing it (potential breakage).

If all this seems like too much of a pain, it's probably better to call a technician But if you understand the risks, have the necessary tools and skills, and proceed carefully, I think you can do this. Good luck!

What a GREAT answers! Thank you!

I have been taught to change strings. We went thru the process every time when a string went off on the piano in the room I practiced - not so often but couple of times. :-) Once we tried to do a knot on a bass string of 6,4 feet Bösendorfer - it didn't go so well, but almost!

Great tip with the lowering the tension in the bigger area. I was told to do so when one restrings the piano but I did not think about that now. It is very true. I will do it.

I was thinking to tighten the plate screws too. It is quite a work I am going to do with the piano. It will be my "playground". Of course cleaning whole thing, soothing and reshaping hammers, regulating the mechanics and tuning.

That's what I will do until 29/12. That day it has to play at a beneficial concert in our small town (the money from the concert will go to a repair account of our big church from 1700's that is falling apart). Then we will see the future of the piano...

Nice pictures on the third link. There are indications of moisture damage in several areas. Rust seems to be on plain wire strings and damper spoons. There are moisture stains on the bridge and soundboard. Some of the felts look too new for a 1930's piano indicating some action regulation and re stringing may have been done before the moisture damage. The damage to the top of the lid looks moisture related too. Hammers and damper felts are not in great shape.

As Ed says, lowering tension, re-installing the bar might take a day. That bar is held in place by string tension, and should not move once tension is at pitch, which sends a big red flag when it's sitting on the sound board. Please post your progress as this job proceeds.

I can remember that bar trying to move on a couple of pianos over the years during re stringing because the bar was close to the hitch pins and the string angle wanted to pull the bar to the edge of the plate as tension was raised. I had to knock it back, and it stayed once the strings were at pitch.

Just a thought: before tightening everything back, make sure you'll end up with adequate downbearing. If not, you might want to remove some thickness from that bar. (From underneath and in a way that would remove the same thickness all along and keep a straight surface.)
I wonder how it could have just fallen out of there. Someone might have thought there wasn't enough downbearing and removed it...

Well. Update. I have been today at the old lady's place full of cats. I put back the string rest. No new crack on the soundboard, no cracks on the frame, no broken strings. The job is not so nice - I made some scratches on the string rest and took down some more paint on the plate (but far not more than when the string rest fell).

It is really strange and I still can't understand why it happened. It looks that when somebody was restringing the piano somebody put the string rest too close to the edge (probably to increase downbearing). And after some time it broke. On the plate I have found old marks for the string rest and I put the string rest approx. there.

Downbearing: When I had all of the string loose I (kind of) measured downbearing (with my credit card - don't laugh). There was quite a nice angle. So I decided to not work make it thinner. But when all the strings were tightened it was flat at the place where the string rest fallen off. It affects maybe 6-8 keys. I couldn't have tried the sound properly - it was late at the evening. It was not bad, I registered other high notes with no sustain at places where is some downbearing / angle.

Some of the pins are quite loose. There's a space for banging it little bit down (except on the bass notes, the pins there are really low). Can I bang the pins down to get more friction?

Observations: I like the sound. The strings are not so rusty - there are just some minor spots (bad light on the previous pictures). The action is nice and uniform. Everything works. The piano doesn't look so bad as at the pictures. Again - bad light.

Pictures: Is it usable like this?
https://goo.gl/photos/BbyB1Yy9VJAMscBK7
https://goo.gl/photos/LfkFQWvRBfmUhueB9

Thank you!

Before banging the pins down, try soaking in some thin super glue. Remove the action first in case it drips. Let as much super glue soak around the tuning pin as it will hold. Protect your lungs and eye from any fumes from the glue. That usually tightens loose pins if the pin block is still in good enough shape.

I have an incredibly strong desire to clean the dirt off that soundboard!

If you decide to bang the pins in, support the pinblock from below or the pinblock may separate. Be careful not to bang so far that the pins come out the bottom and interfere with the action being removed/replaced.

I like the CA glue idea. (Super glue)

Cool story! Thanks for sharing. I always like to hear about new life breathed into an old piano. And it's also cool to hear about how people improvise and adapt when necessary.
I hope this piano serves you well!

Also, the church restoration/renovation sounds like a cool project. I hope that goes well too.

Ill go with what Nathan said about figuring why it came out in the first place.
I call it more of a bearing bar, something used to set string down bearing.
One idea: sometimes people like to increase string downbearing for whatever reason and moving the bar toward the tuning pins would do just that.
Possibly in doing this the bar was removed from its intended seat/position and it became possible for it to migrate to the point it slipped out.
Just guessing here.
But in figuring out why it happened you should aquire some information about string down bearing. It may be very excessive in its current condition. Or restoring the bar to its original position could end you up with zero string downbearing.
If you release the string tension and replace the bar I would go through setting bearing procedures.
Still just guessing but trying to point out the need to know this stuff before taking corrective action.

Thanks for all of the answers.

Gene Nelson: You are probably right. Read my post above: #2593481

Ando: ME TOO!!! I just didn't have any time to do that. I was working wigh the piano for 3 hours - loose the pins, put back the bar, tighten the strings, make first tuning... I am going to do that direftly after moving the piano to the hall.

Banging the pins down feels better for me than to put some [censored] on the wood with uncertain durability and effect on the material. If I do so, I will put piede of wood under the pinblock to not make more cracks in it. The pins are quite short! So it is no danger of touching the action.

What glue am I suppossed to use? We have here several kinds.
Paper glue: e.g. Hercules, white, non-durable glue, easy to clean, doesn't shrink so much
Super fast glue: quite durable, shrinks a lot, eats and destroys everything under
Fast glue: e.g. Loctite Superattack, slower, destroys everything under, average shrinking (still quite a lot), fills cracks
Gum glue: (e.g. Chemopren), yellow thick glue for gum

With downbearing, I will try to bang the bearing bar little back to the edge, but probably without loosing the tension of the strings on the whole piano. Just key after key. The bar is quite soft... And not so much as the guy before me. Before that I will measure properly the downbearing. The problem with downbearing seems to be around G5 to C6 or so. Then there is some downbearing (really small, but hey...). The segmenr of the piano is allright. I am worried that the problem is actually caused by the fallen bar and many years of restkng like this...

Super Thin Super Glue is a proven way to tighten loose tuning pins. Apply it to the side of the pin, and it soaks down into the block, and tightens the pins. Super Thin Super Glue replaces Garfields pin block restorer that many of us used years ago. Many technicians and myself use Super Thin superglue on a regular basis. I carry a small bottle with me for the occasional loose bass tuning pin. To treat the whole piano you will need up to 6 oz. It's available at most hobby stores.

Update!

Positive news!

The piano has been moved, it was scary to move it - 3 guys came, 2 brought that 300kg bull down the stairs. It survived without damage, the sound board is still in one piece as the frame is (it was -2C outside).

I have done some work on the piano. Some cleaning (I still don't know how to get behind the strings to clean it, I just blew out the dust). I reconditioned hammers (but not so much the discant hammers to keep there as much material as possible). I set a new blow distance (I went from 5,0-5,2 to 4,75cm) + adjusted the hammer rest, set let off much closer to the strings, adjusted repetition lever that jacks almost touches knuckles. I have done some minor work with drop distance, pedals and I tuned the piano 2 times at 441Hz. No cracked strings.

It was a GREAT tip with the CA glue!!! THANK YOU! It was HARD to put it there, some of the glue finished on the plate (I wiped it off). Impossible to use a syringe, later I used the syringe from "outside". I used cca 30ml of the glue. But a lot of glue went to the pin holes, on some it soaked really quick, on some it stayed until I wiped it off. Next morning when I tuned that piano was just perfectly stiff! It holds tune like a charm. I got NO glue leaking from the bottom of the pins what so ever. So I think it is a good sign that the pin block is not fatally cracked. The pins has a good bending - they bend slightly from the strings. Well, and it looks they are original, they are really small (nut #1) but in very good undamaged shape.

And, I think there is downbearing across the board! Not much, somewhere almost nothing but there is something.

In the past somebody restrung the piano, the strings look much newer when without dust only with few spots of rust after the tea and water incidents. The strings slide exceptionally well (I remember non-sliding strings on Steinway C at my school), however some bass double strings have different partials. The piano in general has a VERY strong 3rd partial (f.e. base C4 - 3rd partial G5). Somebody also put a new felts and papers under the keys but the keys needs to be leveled. It also looks the the action has been completely reconditioned in maybe 60's or 70's. There are much newer felts, some numberings and signatures of the technicians. Looks like a good job except the key leveling. It seems somebody leveled the keys wrong - black keys are too low and now I am getting almost no aftertouch. Almost no let off. I can see that it is almost no compression on the jack stop felts on those keys so the problem was there from the beginning. I only amplified the problem by setting the new let off. The let off on the white keys is ok. The front underfelts are ok - there are no papers, just the green felts, one can't do more. I ordered some material as extra-strings (I will change maybe 4 that are vibrating by itself), underpapers and underfelts and some more tools but it didn't come - our stupid post company have strikes before Christmas.

The sound of the piano is very strong although there is not so much sustain in the discants, sounds like an older grand but it fills the big hall exceptionally well. Actually, it is quite nice to play it. Especially when I think that the piano would go to junkyard, if I wouldn't grab it.

Questions:
1) I have problem with some catchers, I am not able to set them to catch the hammer. It looks like there is not enough material on some hammers, the hammers are too "short". It helps when I set drop lower but then the drop is way too low. :-) Or the catchers should be higher. I cleaned and brushed the catchers, set the position right but with no success. I clearly see that the hammers can't reach the catcher. What to do with the catchers? Or should I just set the drop very low?
(Now I actually got an idea - some of the repetition springs were too tight, I didn't have time to do it properly, just decreased tension of the worst ones.)

2) Any other way how to make the aftertouch stronger (let-off earlier) than to set the key level higher / deeper key travel?

3) Any way how to change the sound characteristics? - I am talking about the very strong 3rd partial.
(An idea here: When I got the piano it didn't have any screws on the black action cubes next to the keyboard. I put there new screws 6x70mm. I will try to remove them and to try the sound again. But there are no possibilities how to adjust the position of the action. I might have also changed the position of the action when I detached it out from the keybed.)

THANK YOU!

I wish you Merry Christmas full of love, happiness and joy.

Mirek
https://i.imgsafe.org/d02bf49a02.jpg

https://i.imgsafe.org/d02e8e2e60.jpg

(I don't know how to place the pictures directly to the post)

Edit: More pictures are comming soon.