2022 our 25th year online!

Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums
Over 3 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments.
Over 100,000 members from around the world.
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers (it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!

SEARCH
Piano Forums & Piano World
(ad)
Who's Online Now
77 members (20/20 Vision, amc252, benkeys, apianostudent, Bellyman, AlkansBookcase, accordeur, akse0435, 15 invisible), 1,986 guests, and 313 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Hop To
Page 1 of 2 1 2
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 1,239
J
jjo Offline OP
1000 Post Club Member
OP Offline
1000 Post Club Member
J
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 1,239
The tune Groove Merchant, which is in Bb, ends with this turn around:

Bb/F
D7/F#
G-7
Eb7
C-7
F7
Bb

I'm good with everything except the Eb7. Without that, it's a pretty basic I III vi ii V turnaround. The Eb7 is easy to play over and sounds like it fits right in. But what is it's function?

Joined: Jan 2016
Posts: 354
E
Full Member
Offline
Full Member
E
Joined: Jan 2016
Posts: 354
I don't understand the Eb7, which makes the Cm7 sound rather weak. Maybe an E°7 instead would sound better....

Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 5,334
N
5000 Post Club Member
Offline
5000 Post Club Member
N
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 5,334
Originally Posted by jjo
The tune Groove Merchant, which is in Bb, ends with this turn around:

Bb/F
D7/F#
G-7
Eb7
C-7
F7
Bb

I'm good with everything except the Eb7. Without that, it's a pretty basic I III vi ii V turnaround. The Eb7 is easy to play over and sounds like it fits right in. But what is it's function?


Originally Posted by Eric399
I don't understand the Eb7, which makes the Cm7 sound rather weak. Maybe an E°7 instead would sound better....


If you can replace Cm7 on Ab maj7, then Eb7 will be dominant and Cm7 - replacement for new tonic Abmaj7. All progression looks in the key of Bb May.


Last edited by Nahum; 11/28/16 02:06 PM.
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 1,239
J
jjo Offline OP
1000 Post Club Member
OP Offline
1000 Post Club Member
J
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 1,239
Eric399: If you can play the progression in the context of the tune, I, at least, think the Eb7 sounds fine. It's a gospelly flavored jazz tunes, with a bit of a New Orleans feel.

Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 1,623
E
1000 Post Club Member
Offline
1000 Post Club Member
E
Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 1,623
Originally Posted by jjo
The tune Groove Merchant, which is in Bb, ends with this turn around:

Bb/F
D7/F#
G-7
Eb7
C-7
F7
Bb

I'm good with everything except the Eb7. Without that, it's a pretty basic I III vi ii V turnaround. The Eb7 is easy to play over and sounds like it fits right in. But what is it's function?


Keep in mind that is less than 1/2 the story. Starting one measure before and continuing multiple times in the second ending, the Eb7 functions in an entirely different manner.

Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 1,239
J
jjo Offline OP
1000 Post Club Member
OP Offline
1000 Post Club Member
J
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 1,239
Emenelton: can you explain what you mean? Just before the turnaround the Eb7 is used in a pretty standard I-IV movement. How does that help explain its presence in the turnaround?

Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 1,623
E
1000 Post Club Member
Offline
1000 Post Club Member
E
Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 1,623
Originally Posted by jjo
Emenelton: can you explain what you mean? Just before the turnaround the Eb7 is used in a pretty standard I-IV movement. How does that help explain its presence in the turnaround?


This chart:

http://www.guitarcats.com/realbook-jazz-standards/groove-merchant

Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 1,239
J
jjo Offline OP
1000 Post Club Member
OP Offline
1000 Post Club Member
J
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 1,239
That's the chart I use. Forgive me but I don't get your point.

Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 1,623
E
1000 Post Club Member
Offline
1000 Post Club Member
E
Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 1,623
I was talking about the Eb7 function in the 2nd ending.

Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 1,239
J
jjo Offline OP
1000 Post Club Member
OP Offline
1000 Post Club Member
J
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 1,239
In the second ending, it makes some sense. That ending, in effect, starts a turnaround, aborts it, and starts it over again. The Eb7 served the function of getting you back to the tonic to start the turnaround again.

That, however, doesn't explain it's function in the first ending. Perhaps it's just one of those things that sounds good and doesn't need any further explanation!

Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 1,623
E
1000 Post Club Member
Offline
1000 Post Club Member
E
Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 1,623
Originally Posted by jjo

That ending, in effect, starts a turnaround, aborts it, and starts it over again. The Eb7 served the function of getting you back to the tonic to start the turnaround again.

That, however, doesn't explain it's function in the first ending.


I'm not trying to be unclear but trying to start a conversation.
Nahum(sp) defined it's function correctly in the first ending. In the second ending the first two times it appears it has a different but all together common function.

In the 2nd ending the turn around is not started and then aborted either, also the Eb7 doesn't get you back to the tonic in the first ending, it is just a borrowed dominant resolving to cm7(per Nahum), it does however, 'get you back to the tonic' when it resolves directly to the temporary tonal center of F(Bb/F) in the second ending. That two bar progression appears three times in a row in the second ending; the third time heading into the turn-around.

My question is; what do you think the chord progression is in the 2nd ending?

The discussion of one is intertwined with the other.

Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 3,238
D
3000 Post Club Member
Offline
3000 Post Club Member
D
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 3,238
Originally Posted by jjo
Perhaps it's just one of those things that sounds good and doesn't need any further explanation!

Dead right! - and that's my guiding principle in everything in music. I've no use for the idea of function. Either these changes are commonplace or they're unusual, verging on odd/unpleasant....or they're somewhere in between. If you play a lot of music you recognise those things you've heard before, or you're pulled up with a start by something that sounds good but is original or quirky. Groove Merchant is a good jazz instrumental but nothing ground breaking.

Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 1,623
E
1000 Post Club Member
Offline
1000 Post Club Member
E
Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 1,623
Originally Posted by jjo

The Eb7 is easy to play over and sounds like it fits right in. But what is it's function?


OPs' original inquiry

Once you understand the mechanics, you can identify these things in other songs.

Dire, I understand you are reacting to me, but applying your response to the OPs' first post is essentially telling him 'I reject the premise of your question. Dom.7th chords cannot have functions attributed to them'.

Last edited by emenelton; 12/08/16 02:39 PM.
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 3,238
D
3000 Post Club Member
Offline
3000 Post Club Member
D
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 3,238
Originally Posted by emenelton


Dire, I understand you are reacting to me, but applying your response to the OPs' first post is essentially telling him 'I don't value your question and I don't know the answer'.

True, I'm responding to both of you but a paraphrase of my response would be "there is no question to answer".


Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 563
M
500 Post Club Member
Offline
500 Post Club Member
M
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 563
This is a blues ... not in 12-bar form, but a blues just the same. The Eb7 is a straight-up blues chord, IV7, every place it appears in the tune.

Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 1,623
E
1000 Post Club Member
Offline
1000 Post Club Member
E
Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 1,623
dire,

Fair enough.

I did change my post to not directly infer things to you but you must have copied it before I changed it.

If you look at the third beat of the forth measure of Misty, you'll see a dom. 7th. functioning the same way.

Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 1,623
E
1000 Post Club Member
Offline
1000 Post Club Member
E
Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 1,623
Originally Posted by Mike A
This is a blues ... not in 12-bar form, but a blues just the same. The Eb7 is a straight-up blues chord, IV7, every place it appears in the tune.


I noticed you referred to the Eb7 as a IV7.

If you had to describe bars 13-18(through the second ending); with Roman Numerals, how would you?

Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 3,238
D
3000 Post Club Member
Offline
3000 Post Club Member
D
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 3,238
Originally Posted by emenelton
If you look at the third beat of the forth measure of Misty, you'll see a dom. 7th. functioning the same way.

So, with Misty in 'C' you mean the Bb7 leading back to the Cma7.

Earlier, you say
Quote
...it does however, 'get you back to the tonic' when it resolves directly to the temporary tonal center of F(Bb/F)

But I take the tonal centre of Bb/F here as Bb, in which case we have Eb7 -> Bb, which isn't the same thing as your Misty change, above.

Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 1,623
E
1000 Post Club Member
Offline
1000 Post Club Member
E
Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 1,623
Originally Posted by dire tonic


So, with Misty in 'C' you mean the Bb7 leading back to the Cma7.

Earlier, you say
Quote
...it does however, 'get you back to the tonic' when it resolves directly to the temporary tonal center of F(Bb/F)

But I take the tonal centre of Bb/F here as Bb, in which case we have Eb7 -> Bb which isn't the same thing as your Misty change, above.


Yes to Misty.

Calling a chord a dominant is a description of it's function and a dominant chord's function is defined by what it resolves to. If you do a Roman Numeral analysis of 13-18(2nd. ending); what would it be?

Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 3,238
D
3000 Post Club Member
Offline
3000 Post Club Member
D
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 3,238
Originally Posted by emenelton

Calling a chord a dominant is a description of it's function and a dominant chords function is defined by what it resolves to. If you do a Roman Numeral analysis of 13-18(2nd. ending); what would it be?

But if your dogma leads you in the wrong direction, you need to question the dogma.

As I said, the two fragments you've cited are quite different from each other.

If RNs are leading to an error, you have to wonder why.


Page 1 of 2 1 2

Moderated by  platuser 

Link Copied to Clipboard
What's Hot!!
Piano World Has Been Sold!
--------------------
Forums RULES, Terms of Service & HELP
(updated 06/06/2022)
---------------------
Posting Pictures on the Forums
(ad)
(ad)
New Topics - Multiple Forums
New DP for a 10 year old
by peelaaa - 04/16/24 02:47 PM
Estonia 1990
by Iberia - 04/16/24 11:01 AM
Very Cheap Piano?
by Tweedpipe - 04/16/24 10:13 AM
Practical Meaning of SMP
by rneedle - 04/16/24 09:57 AM
Country style lessons
by Stephen_James - 04/16/24 06:04 AM
Forum Statistics
Forums43
Topics223,391
Posts3,349,273
Members111,634
Most Online15,252
Mar 21st, 2010

Our Piano Related Classified Ads
| Dealers | Tuners | Lessons | Movers | Restorations |

Advertise on Piano World
| Piano World | PianoSupplies.com | Advertise on Piano World |
| |Contact | Privacy | Legal | About Us | Site Map


Copyright © VerticalScope Inc. All Rights Reserved.
No part of this site may be reproduced without prior written permission
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5
When you purchase through links on our site, we may earn an affiliate commission, which supports our community.