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Pneuma #2593675 12/10/16 04:20 PM
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The discussion here is [as usual..] based on what's supposedly "best" among instruments. By now, we all should know better so there is no point to comment on this any further.

Scale design is a thing very few fully understand and those who do still have to deliver "the goods" in the end. Just because someone is a well known architect doesn't mean he's building impressive or 'suitable' housing in each and every case.

Case in point:

I once talked to a [well known] designer who explained to me privately all the major facets of a just newly designed model, obviously trying to impress.
When I tried the piano later, my comments were less than complimentary.
This model was eventually discontinued by the maker [wouldn't one know..] as others commented similarly.

One thing that remains always same is that people judge a piano by tone & touch - it's what it's all about. Otherwise it wouldn't even make sense to try them. There's no shortcut to this and all the explanations in the world don't help. For others so-called prestige and imagery is more important. Everybody make your own choice.

Incidentally, I know a few makers who protect themselves with certain 'secrets' in manufacturing only known to them. Which is only logical. By the way, most of the Euros do. [and have always done in world's arguably fiercest high end market]
So, "copying things" is not always as easy as some may suspect.

Coupled with "cost of instrument" at least to me, is where things are actually at.
As is for most of our customers.

Everybody can decide between 'talk' and 'performance'

But the former does not exactly make up for the latter.

Norbert smile

Last edited by Norbert; 12/10/16 04:30 PM.


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Originally Posted by Kieran Wells
There are some errors in fact in this thread, to which I do not take offense, but feel compelled to correct.

Brodmann was the conjured up by Bosendorfer. The story is that Colin Taylor and Christian Hofferl purchased the designs for the pre-war A (187), B(212), and C(228) Steinway pianos from the Hamburg factory. This is corroborated by Scott Sheebeck and the late Gary Trafton (Scott's business partner). I have met all of these people and have conducted business with them.

Brodmann was divested as a project during a time that Bosendorfer was owned by an Austrian bank, the idea being that they would stick with just the very high end stuff. The original idea behind Brodmann was to make a piano that was affordable but good. They did that. Mr. Taylor and Mr. Hoferl enjoyed a good deal of success. Later there was some financial difficulty and the the company reorganized and split from its hi-fi audio business. The Hi-fi is still there and is fantastic. You can still buy a set of legendary VC-7's developed under Bosendorfer. I actually has some of those Bosendorfer VC-7's thanks to a deal I go from Eric!

I own several model A Steinway pianos and several Brodmann 187's. I like to dovetail position them with one another for comparison. They are strikingly similar. The bolt patters is the same. The rims are both maple and the Brodmann is actually more robust in some ways. The bridges are the same. The plates are almost identical. The 187 even has the cantilevered bell that the nose-bolt goes in to in the forward bent section of the treble rim.

I have sold Brodmann since they were introduced to the US. They have changes somewhat over the years, but have always performed beautifully.

I will not engage further than this post. I am friendly enough with Del that I don't think that he would take offense at any of this stuff. I have and will be (I hope) corrected by Del in the future. I like him very much and have sold pianos that he has designed. He has a lot of great information.

Brodmann is made at Parsons. You will not find the scales in any other pianos produced there. My wife plays on one often, as do many in our academic and institutional communities. When we prep these pianos, they really perform at a high level.

I genuinely appreciate the fact that everybody posts here. The forum would not be what it is without the genuine interest you all take in pianos. If anybody would like to follow up on this subject, please feel free to call me directly. If you would assert that I am off the mark on anything, then I would genuinely like to hear about it. We have been very busy at the shop, and I tend to conserve my energy when that happens. I am happy to speak with any of you though.



Ok this is a bit of an obvious question, but if Brodmann was conjured up by Bosendofer, and Colin Taylor and Christian Hofferl presumably had access to all the Bosendorfer scale designs, why didn't they copy one of them? Why copy a Steinway? Is this an intrinsic admittance that they admired Steinways scale deign more than their own? Despite the fact that they charge more for their pianos?

And please don't get me wrong. Bosendorfer are fabulous pianos with a unique sound signature. I'm just curious. If I was the CEO of Bosendorfer and trying to produce a "value" product, I would not try to copy a Steinway. I would have confidence in my scale designs and I would try to replicate the Bosendorfer sound to as great a degree as possible, whilst reducing manufacturing costs.

Last edited by DiarmuidD; 12/10/16 06:57 PM.
Pneuma #2593724 12/10/16 07:24 PM
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Marketing.


Piano Industry Consultant

Co-author (with Larry Fine) of Practical Piano Valuation
www.jasonsmc@msn.com

Contributing Editor & Consultant - Acoustic & Digital Piano Buyer

Retired owned of Jasons Music Center
Maryland/DC/No. VA
Family Owned and Operated Since 1937.


Pneuma #2593725 12/10/16 07:26 PM
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Fair point. Just a bit of a shame really. I guess that's what a monopoly on the upper end of the market gets you. I like Steinway pianos a lot. The most expensive thing I've ever bought (apart from my home) was my Steinway piano. But I regret their dominance of the high end market. It stifles innovation and competition.

Actually while I can still edit my post, if I had the chance again I would not have gone down the same route I did originally. I currently have a restored Steinway model B. It's lovely and is settling in with new strings and plays very nicely. It is a good piano. But if I'm completely honest I'm more excited by some of the newer models on the market. For example when I was buying there was a gorgeous Yamaha S6 for sale at literally half the price of my Steinway (plus the respiration cost). I do regret not buying that Yamaha. And equally, for example, the new Estonia 225 is wonderful from the recordings I've heard.

Last edited by DiarmuidD; 12/10/16 08:10 PM.
Pneuma #2593747 12/10/16 09:57 PM
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Quote
Marketing.


Apparently that's fine for some companies but not for others.

By the way, in which way does this affect the bottom line for consumers?

Norbert



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