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The Risk of Buying a Virtual Piano VST Plugin: The Ravenscroft Piano and True Keys American Grand Piano by VI Labs

Recently I bought a new Roland digital piano, and I haven't been satisfied with its built-in acoustic piano sounds. Hence, needing some alternatives, I've been investigating various sampled piano plugins, to use with Cubase.

To research these virtual piano plugins, I've watched numerous Youtube videos, and I've listened to numerous vendor demo audio tracks as well. But the demos cannot be trusted entirely, because vendors are unlikely to highlight their pianos' flaws, and you never know what they might be hiding. Anyway, they certainly don't let you hear every note at every volume level.

So, unfortunately, the only way to know for sure whether you'll like a particular virtual piano is to try it out for yourself. However, apart from Pianoteq, you cannot try out a virtual piano until you have bought it, and then if you don't like it, the vendor will typically refuse to refund your purchase.

For years, the tradition in software has been that once you open or install some software, you cannot return it, because the vendor can't be sure you've actually uninstalled it from your computer. But these days, iLok technology has changed all that. With iLok, if you transfer your license back to the vendor, you absolutely cannot use the software anymore. Thus, with virtual pianos that require iLok registration, vendors can indeed accept returns without any risk of piracy. This means there is no excuse for software companies to refuse returns -- if they use iLok technology.

But why should a vendor bother to accept returns? The reason why is that accepting returns drastically reduces the perceived risk for customers who are considering a purchase. Reduced risk makes it easier for customers to buy, and it thereby increases sales. That's why Amazon and Costco accept returns of most items, no questions asked. It's good for business, plain and simple.

In contrast, with virtual pianos, customers perceive significant risk if they know that returns are not allowed. In other words, even if you can work up the courage to buy a virtual piano without any opportunity to try it out first, there is a significant risk that you will be disappointed with your purchase, and then you will not be able to obtain a refund. If that happens, you will feel reluctant to risk buying other plugins, for fear of being disappointed again. Obviously, this is bad for business.

This reluctance to buy plugins is exactly what I'm experiencing now, after having bought two pianos recently from VI Labs, including the "Ravenscroft" piano and the "True Keys American Grand". That's not to say they're bad pianos, but rather that they are not suitable for me. In fact, I did my due diligence and investigated them in every possible way. But after buying, downloading and installing the pianos, I realized that I had made a mistake. They are just not what I'm looking for.

Unfortunately, VI Labs' website states: "Because our products are digital software, delivered instantly once payment is received, we offer no refunds as a matter of policy unless the product has not been authorized." However, their software is indeed protected by iLok technology, so as noted above, they have no valid excuse for refusing returns.

The unenlightened no-returns policy of vendors like VI Labs is bad for their industry, as it creates consumer risk, undermines trust, and discourages sales. This is also unfair to consumers and musicians, as we cannot obtain what we need without risking disappointment and financial loss.

To say it plainly, from the consumers' perspective, the virtual piano developers will entice you, not always honestly, and take your money, but they don't seem to care whether you are satisfied or not. If you don't like their piano, tough luck, they'll keep your money anyway. Moreover, they don't seem to feel responsible for ensuring that each piano they sample is properly tuned and voiced before they sample it. Hence, their neglect becomes your problem.

This situation really is unfair, and the vendors are treating their customers very poorly. While I do appreciate the entrepreneurial effort made by the various virtual piano developers, they do need to adopt a more enlightened returns policy, for the sake of their own industry -- and as a matter of business ethics too. They should consider the good examples set by Cakewalk, Cubase, and Pianoteq, who have all found ways to allow consumers to try out their software before buying it.

In the meantime, there is not much we can do except forewarn each other by posting our experiences with the virtual pianos we have purchased. Of course, reviews and comments are no substitute for trying out a virtual piano for yourself, but I do want to offer some help, so here are my observations and opinions about the two VI Labs pianos I bought:

First, while my Roland digital piano does have many useful sounds, its built-in "SuperNatural" acoustic piano sounds are less appealing than the True Keys American Grand. However, the American grand does have its flaws. For example, the major 3rds built on G3, G#3 and A3 beat noticeably, which means they are somewhat out of tune. Similarly, the major 6ths on F3 and G3 also beat. The problem is subtle enough that many people might never notice. But I find it annoying, especially as those notes are right in the middle of the piano, which is an area that inevitably gets played a lot. The piano should also have been voiced more evenly. For example, G5 is noticeably duller than the neighboring notes, while G6 and A6 are brighter than their black key neighbors.

Overall, this American Grand sounds somewhat dull and boxy to me, and I wish there were more sparkle in the sound. I've tried compensating for that with EQ and reverb, but I haven't entirely succeeded, so I've concluded that the original sampled sound may have some inherent limitations. For these reasons, I find this piano unsuitable for recording, unless it is buried in the mix.

On the other hand, the American Grand may be adequate for casual use, if you're not too demanding. It's also fairly cheap, and it can be installed on up to 3 of your computers. And while it utilizes iLok anti-piracy technology, you can register it to your computer, without having to purchase a physical iLok key.

As for the Ravenscroft piano, it too suffers from some minor but annoying tuning issues. For example, I can hear beating when I play a perfect 5th on G3 or A3. In addition, the major 6ths on G4 and G#4 sound harsh and unattractive to me. This piano should also have been voiced more evenly. For example, D#5 is noticeably duller that its neighbors, while B5 sounds much louder than the nearby D6. Overall, I find this piano too bright, but I've been able to improve that with some EQ. The Ravenscroft piano's most useful range is below E4; I avoid dwelling on notes much higher than that. I consider this a specialty piano that could be useful if you need a piano sound with some bite around Middle C and lower.

Perhaps other virtual pianos have similar tuning and voicing issues, I don't know, but that is certainly not a "feature" that I value or want. So be forewarned, if you think you might be as fussy as I am. Otherwise, these pianos might be acceptable for you. But unfortunately, you won't be able to find out for sure, unless you risk your money, and perhaps end up wasting it.

I hope my comments will help you somehow, but keep in mind that my opinions are subjective, and you could feel very differently about these pianos.

As for myself, knowing what I know now, I would not buy these pianos again, because they lack the quality and consistency that I need. I would perhaps even consider selling them cheap if someone offered to buy them.

Anyway, because I absolutely require an excellent virtual piano, I've had to overcome my heightened sense of risk aversion, and order the Ivory II American Concert D, which I hope will prove more satisfactory.

(Note: I've been listening to these pianos with and without reverb and EQ, using good quality headphones and speakers. Other virtual sampled piano plugins that I considered, but didn't buy, include the Garritan CFX, the Steinberg Grand 3, and the Hans Zimmer piano from Spitfire. What deterred me from buying them was mainly the lack of any way to thoroughly evaluate them, and the risk of being disappointed and wasting money.)

Thanks for this.
(I've PM'd you)

If you're looking for a list of VSTs with free trials, here's a few to start.

https://www.native-instruments.com/en/products/komplete/keys/the-gentleman/

https://www.native-instruments.com/en/products/komplete/keys/vintage-organs/

https://www.native-instruments.com/en/products/komplete/keys/scarbee-mark-1/

https://www.xlnaudio.com/addictivekeys

While I agree on your premise (I do enjoy TK American quite a bit, but I'm used to acoustics with their quirks and so I have a high tolerance and I feel this makes it more realistic), the risk factor is relatively low with the price for these instruments. These companies are following the models of other Virtual Instrument companies like EastWest, Orchestra Tools, Spitfire Audio, etc. And with some of those instruments, you are paying upwards of $1000 for one library. With no free trial, and no return policy, and no ability to transfer the license to a 3rd party should you decide to sell it.

So it's generally the industry standard, and it stinks. Even iLok stuff stinks. People have lost use of their libraries which were bought and paid for due to problems with iLok and similar security measures. Plus, some require that you purchase the dongle, so in essence we are paying to protect the software company's product.

RE: the Hans Zimmer piano, I think if you are looking for a realistic piano, this may not be your cup of tea. I've not played it, but it's my understanding it's more for effect within a mix, less for a realistically sampled piano. That's just my impression, so you may want to investigate this a bit further.

Re: list of VSTs with free trials:

Thanks for the links. Too bad there's no free trial for the Native Instruments Grandeur piano, as that's the one that might interest me.

I agree about the risk, unfortunately any advice about what piano VST to order doesn`t mean too much for anybody. Any forum about piano VSTs is a full of different opinions and not just that but also everyone of us change self perspective through time. So search, buy product, play, forget money you give and again in a new circle...If there is a demo then that is good.

Thanks for your perspective on the Hans Zimmer piano.

I have found Spitfire's website particularly unhelpful. When I last checked, it offered no solo piano demo tracks. What Spitfire provides instead are some tracks that have talking over the piano, or that include other instruments that obscure the piano sound. Evidently, there is something about the piano that they wish to hide from us.

They do have a "Walkthrough" video on youtube, but it mainly consists of talking, and the piano sounds are few and far between -- and soaked in reverb too. Here's the link:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tN9vRJAJA68

Here are the sections in the video that have somewhat useful piano sounds to hear:
2:14 - 2:33
4:42 - 4:55
8:32 - 8:55

Overall, Spitfire seems to be doing their very best to obscure the true nature of what they are selling. Instead, they expect us to just trust in the Hans Zimmer brand, think wishfully, and fork over our money.

You have try-sound.com where you can test Ivory, Galaxy, VSL pianos.

Well this is just another example of what I have said here time and time again. Forget about the demos. I haven't even listened to the demos, NOT AT ALL, with the last couple VSTs I've bought. The demos are worse than worthless. They will mislead you, and that has negative value.

My recommendation remains the same as always. Listen to the people that have most of the available VSTs. Weigh what they have to say about sound and playability. Of course there will be outlier opinions that you need to filter out. And opinions from people that haven't got most of the pianos or have only been around for a short while. Filter them out. Then try to figure out from their comments which people probably have the most similar goals or taste to you. It's the best you can do. Had you done that you definitely would not have bought the True Keys American, which is average, but not top notch. You may or may not have bought Ravenscroft. It would have depended on which advice you found more aligned with your goals and taste.

My guess, you may like the Ivory ACD, or you may find it a bit bland.

Great topic !! I find myself in the middle of the same process and i took the approach that Macy formulated so well.
I have read every forum and every topic and user review i could destilate from the internet involving those vst instruments that could be to my liking.
Those who couldn't even convince me in a clever arranged demo are dismissed immediatly.And that's a long list of instruments that don't pass that test ( to my ears of course)
Those who do make an impact are in for heavy investigation.
I think i develloped some skills in determining the value of blogs, reviews and forum topics and what is at stake. I don't care for any magazine review because each and every new piano vst f.i. sets a new standard or raises the bar.
It was written in reviews of the Ravenscroft, Hammersmith, Garritan CFX and Pianoteq5.
I want to know from high end users that have used many vst's and can tell me more than just some meaningless praise.

Coming from a hardware set up only , i have bought a computer with a couple of ssd's + RME soundcard to buy Garritan CFX and run it as smoothly possible.
I didn't feel the need to check out this purchase, because i was absolutely sure that CFX was the one i wanted after investigating every shred of info about every piano vst out there.
It turned out to be true in every aspect.

In the same process i have narrowed down my needs for an upright piano too.
My piano from Fluffy Audio is on top of my list.
And maybe the Bechstein vst in the future.

I have bought several other instrument vst's the same way of carefully examine every article and forum out there..... also in different languages.
I value the field work from other users very, very much and i trustcertain opinions that much that i mostly buy unseen ( even with many hardware units)
Also because i believe i know how to interpret user info in relation to my needs and wants.

I had a couple of Ivory pianos, and once I started getting into Pianoteq, it upset me that I couldn't sell it.

Eventually, I found a friend who I lent my iLok to, a friend I never met before or heard from since who I found on Pianoworld. I gave him my Synthogy login in exchange for donating to a charitable cause, that cause being me, a hungry artist, hungry for new music equipment.

Thanks for suggesting try-sound.com.

I booked a session to try out the Vintage D, and started the session using their custom-recommended settings, but the session connection failed because my internet service is too slow.

try-sound.com seems a good idea -- if your internet connection is up to their standards.

Thanks anyway.

I have purchased many of these VSTs and have never been able to settle on any one of them to be the one I use most of the time.

For my ear ... I cannot find anything which is better than the sound of my ES8.

I do run my ES8 sound out into a mixer and modify it somewhat with the mixer EQ and then back into my ES8.

I also, sometimes, will mix in the natural ES8 sound with this modified ES8 sound which gives me a sharper sound.

Sometimes I also mix in a little bit of one of the VSTs (especially the Pianoteq) but only as a means of giving me something "different" from time to time.

Bottom line ... for my money ... I would spend it on lessons before VST software.

That is my take on it.

Macy, I half agree with you. I agree that user comments are worth reading. That is why, in my original post, I explained my own opinions about the two pianos that I bought -- hoping to help other virtual-piano customers.

Moreover, prior to my purchase, I did read as many user comments as I could find on various forums. But as you have acknowledged, tastes vary, and you can only guess whether another person's taste actually matches your own. Hence, I maintain that the only way to be really sure that you will like a virtual piano is to try it out for yourself.

No doubt, the virtual-piano-plugin vendors already know that. Surely they also know that current iLok technology allows product trial without any risk of piracy. However, they find it more convenient to not allow product trials, to insist that all sales be non-refundable, and to ignore any customer dissatisfaction. But that cynical attitude oozes sleaze, and it turns off customers.

Anyway, you seem to own quite a number of virtual piano plugins yourself, so may I ask, which ones do you personally like the best? (I do not normally frequent this forum, and so I have not kept up with any previous recommendations you may have made.) Your opinions would be much appreciated.

That's a great plug for the ES8, because looking at your signature, you own most of the VST pianos.

Going back to the thread, I like that you can sell your Pianoteq license and that Modartt allows it on up to 3 computers. That's more like it.

I was very excited about the ES8 when it was announced by Kawai but when I finally was able to sit down and play one, I was extremely disappointed with the internal sounds. I listened using my personal headphones (Sennheiser HD-598). One of the three main piano sounds (the SK-5) was ok, the Kawai-Ex and SK-ex? sounded very digital to me. I came away disappointed.

But I purchased Garritan CFX over a year ago now and have been playing it almost exclusively ever since. To my ear, it is the most authentic sounding and satisfying vst on the market today. The only two that come close to it are Ivory II (german D and American D). But they come off sounding false to my ear from time to time. Galaxy Vintage D is a distant third for me.

I have purchased more vst software pianos than I care to admit. I am gratified that at least one of these products (Garritan CFX) has satisfied me in most regards. It plays well and sounds great.

I read everything out there and the Ravenscroft was on top of my list from the moment it came out, althaugh the online sound didn't blew me away.
Then i read numerous reviews from users who praised it but also added things like "the Ravenscroft is probably not everyone 's cup of tea" huh ?????

That changed my approach ( i didn't have one single piano vst at all back then and it took me more than a year to decide what i wanted)
Is a Steinway D not everyone's cup of tea ? Sure !!! ,.... some may like a different brand even more, but every pianist can fully appreciate a Steinway D.
So what is it with vst piano's ? Is it simply the colours of a certain brand ?
I think not , it is way more than that. Playability, initial sound, mike position, recording room, velocity switching, looping, streching, resonances, pedal implementation and much more..........

Every founded criticism about a certain vst is hardly ever about the specific character of a certain A brand, but the way everything else i mentioned is done.
People who buy a vst want it to meet their expectations about it and when it doesn't i take their comments serious enough.

Are there vst's out there that practically everyone agrees about ?
Yes there are a few..... the Garritan CFX (after fixing the pedal implementations) .
I still have to read the first negative review about it..... on the contrary

The Hammersmith, Ravenscroft/ true keys, Galaxy D, Piano in Blue, Ivory, East West Quantum Leap piano's, Hans Zimmer, Sampletekk, Imperfect Samples, Pianoteq 5, NI definite piano collection, production Grand, Vienna Imperial and more..........
All receive lots of praise, but also lots of negativity that doesn't relate to the sound of the REAL grand piano it tries to emulate per see. ( apart from pianoteq , where sound is the ONLY issue for those who don't like it)

"My piano" from Fluffy Audio seems to get praise only !!!
The new Bechstein vst is on it's way to become a highpraised piano vst too without complains by users.
The Scarbee Rhodes in the past and even more with their latest release.
There are some vst's out there in every catagory (as i found out ) that seem to please 99% of their buyers. Those are the ones i am tracking down.
To many multiple vst users hardly use the majority of their somewhat underwhelming vst instruments. I cannot afford that for various reasons.
i find downloading, installing drivers and everything related to software music a very difficult and challenging affair.
I avoid every unnecessary action and it starts by narrowing down those specific products that minimise the chance of buyers remorse........
I know that is a very different approach, but it works for me and avoids to many confrontations with my computer or unpleasant sounding vst's.

Very interesting topic indeed!
I own a V-Piano (and an acoustic Yamaha C3). A few years ago, I decided to buy the VP as it was IMO the only one that could simulate the behavior of a real piano. Pedal - perfect, expression and playability - perfect, timbre - not so much!
But since I value certain characteristics more than others, I have always been (almost) happy with it. What I learn on the VP is usable for me on the acoustic. So, if you ask me, I value the V-Piano highly and I might risk in a sense to disappoint someone else who is looking for something different in a piano.

Like many people here, I bought a few sampled pianos over the years - NI Akoustic, Ivory I and American Concert D.
I was especially disappointed by the latter: (<warning> Raw personal opinion! </warning>) the sound of the middle range is so stingy - very short and non resonant. Some notes are tuned OK at one velocity, then they are suddenly out of tune (or sound somewhat different) if you play higher or lower velocities - the general experience of playing it is underwhelming to say the least. BUT - some people love it.



I also did check Garritan CFX out as much as I could (for example here) , and in the end I got a copy of it.
It's the first time in many years I finally have beautiful tone, good consistency and (almost) great playability together!.
I haven't been playing the V-Piano with its own sound lately as I am now attached to hearing the CFX beautiful tone while playing...

Even so, it hasn't been an easy journey. I had to painstakingly adjust the velocity (touch) curve as it has a BIG influence on the piano sound and on the playability. I tweaked back and forth the dynamic range, the volume of the room sound vs. close sound and many other characteristics of the piano.
But the tone... heavenly.

It's far from perfect though (well... far compared to the real thing!). The sustain pedal timing is not always right (is a touch late sometimes) and the playability in the high range (say after velocity 100-110) is a little compressed. My feeling is 20 layers are ok, but 40 would be really great, and 127... !
On the whole, though, is a big step forward IMO.

I also purchased the Bechstein Digital. Great samples, but it doesn't have partial pedalling (although their manual says it does!).
I live in Europe (there is a EU rule on distance selling that says you can return goods purchased within 14 days and get a refund), and after three days of extensive playing and tweaking I didn't like it (the sustain pedal thing was a show stopper for me) and I asked for a refund - and got it! And they don't even use Ilok or anything like that...
If they fix this issue I might buy it again.

Thanks !!!! That was a good read !
Since i am a professional pianotuner in daily life i know how a real grand, well tuned, intonated and regulated can sound/play.
But many have their own tiny little irregularities and problems even more in the eye of the beholder.
If not, the sampling of a real grand piano should be an easier job. If you take the time and listen very, very carefully a real grand piano is full of tiny quirks and mismatches.
While playing a real piano with the whole soundboard vibrating, dampers lifted, symphatic resonances active the quirks are covered with a very pleasant sauce as described.
However when recorded close up in isolation during sample sessions it becomes way more appearent.
How many many digitals have tones that stand out for no particular reason ? Tone x,y,z is to harsh, to muffled, to detuned, different upper harmonics compared to the neighbouring keys.
Of course the manufactors are to blame partially, but also the essence of close mike recording of single tones. Every piano i tune have a couple of notes that sound less perfect than comparable notes . The iron strings itself, position of certain strings near the framework, the felts etc. All can result in some less satisfying induvidual notes or even regions in a grand piano.

Having said that,........ what is your opinion on the tone and playabilty of the Bechstein grand compared to the CFX ? ( i don't mind the partial pedal precision)

One of my prefered is Garritan CFX, I also like Bechstein Digital, but on my i5, 4 cores, 3GHz I have to limit it at 180 voices... a single note triggers 5 voices. I deduce that the actual polyphony is only 36 notes.