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#1351312 - 01/16/10 06:49 PM Tuning Pin Torque
Emmery Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/02/08
Posts: 2481
Loc: Niagara Region, On. Canada
Is there a standard for tuning pin tightness that most techs would agree upon. I had a discussion with two different techs and they both seem to have different views of whats too tight/too loose and the measuring process itself.

I regard anything over 180/200 inch pounds as too tight (sometimes evident on newly driven pins or improperly sized pins). 140/180 as tight but acceptable if the pin block is new or very solid good condition. 95-140 as normal, 60-70 as marginal and under 60 inch pounds indicating need for sizing up on pins or other remedies. Do any of you follow roughly the same scale, method of measuring?

When measuring, do you take the reading clockwise or counter clockwise? The two techs disagreed on this also. The one tech released all tension and took the reading with the first sign of pin movement. Obviously measuring with string tension in either direction would skew the measurements also. I'm figuring there is a standard that most techs could agree on.


Edited by Emmery (01/16/10 06:50 PM)
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#1351327 - 01/16/10 07:19 PM Re: Tuning Pin Torque [Re: Emmery]
Marty Flinn Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/25/06
Posts: 2604
Force necessary to break loose counter clockwise (tension on).
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#1351359 - 01/16/10 08:10 PM Re: Tuning Pin Torque [Re: Marty Flinn]
Emmery Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/02/08
Posts: 2481
Loc: Niagara Region, On. Canada
Originally Posted By: Marty Flinn
Force necessary to break loose counter clockwise (tension on).


I use this method myself but I often wonder about those pins that are creepy in their feel, meaning that they are tough to break free yet once they get moving they seem excessively loose until you stop. Almost like it is a resin or stickiness rather than interference fit/tightness holding them. I see this in some older Samicks and a few other brands now and then. Its mostly a nuisance when the pin keeps slipping from the spot it needs to be and feels tight everywhere else. Some pianos have a more consistent torque to them where the force needed to keep moving the pin is very close to the higher initial force needed to break it free.
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#1351366 - 01/16/10 08:29 PM Re: Tuning Pin Torque [Re: Emmery]
Silverwood Pianos Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/10/08
Posts: 4263
Loc: Vancouver B. C. Canada
Hey Emmery,

With the force of the string trying to un-wind the pin, use the torque wrench in the same direction for an accurate reading. A 60inch pounds is the minimum required to keep the instrument in tune from season to season but, in my opinion, on some instruments in particular, this is too low. I like them in the 90-125 range.

Early Samick would be the delignit block I think. I have experienced the symptoms that you mentioned even with some of the early 80’s YC instruments that I have in my churches. I am not a favourite of the multi laminate blocks, I prefer the old 3 ply maple. For the multi layer, maybe high speed glazing from being drilled too fast?
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#2603292 - 01/11/17 01:59 PM Re: Tuning Pin Torque [Re: Emmery]
Mark Davis Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/10/08
Posts: 697
Ok, I am borrowing a little bit, and slightly adapted from Emmerys original post, and trust that he would be ok with it and that PW will be ok with it, as it is all done in good faith and in context of the original topic. I do hope that someone/some folks with real understanding and experience will answer the following questions.

When measuring tuning pin torque, do you take the reading clockwise or counter clockwise? Measuring with string tension in either direction would skew the measurements also, so what is the correct way of measuring tuning pin torque?

Also, what should/can the torque be on a 100 year old piano for it to be considered in the acceptable torque range?


Edited by Mark Davis (01/11/17 03:07 PM)
Edit Reason: added the words "tuning pin torque"
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#2603359 - 01/11/17 04:47 PM Re: Tuning Pin Torque [Re: Emmery]
Ed Foote Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/03/03
Posts: 1633
Loc: Tennessee
I measure how much force is required to continually move the pin towards the flattening. This is the resistance the string sees, so I consider it to be the operative quantity I am looking for. Pins tighter than 150 in/lbs are uselessly tight, imho. I am way comfortable between 100 and 125 in/lbs. Under 80 and I specifically mention them to the customer.
Regards,

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#2603510 - 01/12/17 04:06 AM Re: Tuning Pin Torque [Re: Emmery]
Mark Davis Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/10/08
Posts: 697
Thank you very much for your response Ed. I much appreciate it.

If I may ask one last question please, The torque you are speaking of is this also applicable for a 100 year old piano with original pins and strings?

Thank you.




Edited by Mark Davis (01/12/17 04:07 AM)
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#2603558 - 01/12/17 08:57 AM Re: Tuning Pin Torque [Re: Mark Davis]
Ed Foote Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/03/03
Posts: 1633
Loc: Tennessee
[quote=Mark Davis
If I may ask one last question please, The torque you are speaking of is this also applicable for a 100 year old piano with original pins and strings?
[/quote]

Greetings,
"Applicable" or "expected" ? I am not sure what is applicable, but different standards are sensible when comparing old pianos with new ones. Many pianos are out there pleasing their owners with far less torque than I would allow out of my shop, so there is latitude inre what is practical.

I have tuned old pianos that were quite loose, around 50 in/lbs. They would stay put, but took a lot of extra time getting the top-string tensions to a very narrow target. With too much looseness, I find it more difficult to control the pin- flex I use when I tune, and have to take extra care yanking things around!
Regards,

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#2603565 - 01/12/17 09:10 AM Re: Tuning Pin Torque [Re: Ed Foote]
Bob Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/01/01
Posts: 4436
Loc: Florida
Originally Posted By Ed Foote
Pins tighter than 150 in/lbs are uselessly tight, imho. I am way comfortable between 100 and 125 in/lbs. Under 80 and I specifically mention them to the customer.
Regards,


Can piano makers take note? It shouldn't take a dozen tunings to loosen up the pins to 150 inch pounds.
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#2603673 - 01/12/17 01:49 PM Re: Tuning Pin Torque [Re: Emmery]
Mark Davis Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/10/08
Posts: 697
Thank you Ed. I should have said expected, not applicable crazy

Thank you very much for explaining!

Regards,
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Piano Tuner/Technician

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