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@Vid : what problems did you get while pluging a Clavinova to the Pianoteq output. I had some troubles with ground loop noises, but with a plain MIDI connection instead of USB, I get rid of them.

A ground loop filter could also be used.

In my experience DP are not for children. This is opposite of what DP salesmen may say. My own experience with my children tells me that it is far better to give them an acoustic upright that cost $3500 then a DP that cost $3500. Very young children can and will pick up all sorts of things from a piano that adults never will. It's like learning to speak with a regional accent. Children are able to but most adults that aren't professional actors are not.

DP are really best for apartment living where headphones use is required. My children who grew up with a vertical piano hates the DP even after I tried so hard to outfit it with Pianoteq and Ivory. They just say it sounds and behaves very fake and have no motivation to practice on it. I tried for years to get them to practice at the same time, one on the vertical the other on the DP but in the end, they just wait in line for the acoustic.

Don't short change a child by giving him / her a DP unless you live in an apartment. Pianoteq is not a cure, just a Band-Aid. I'm totally into DP, but it also took me a long time, 5 years of lessons, to finally understand what the children were going on about. I don't have the same wiring in my head as they since I started piano in my 40's and probably never will, so DP is fine for me.

There is no modeling revolution going on. It's been a very slow incremental improvement over the last decade. You could wait until your child is an adult and not see anything that behaves and sound like a real acoustic piano at an affordable price when judged by a trained musician's ear and hands. It is simply much cheaper to buy a $3500-$4500 acoustic upright that you could sell for $2000 in 10-15 years than to expect Pianoteq or anything else to get there.

In my opinion and experience DP are better for adults despite all the marketing materials with children in the pictures. I practice with headphones even though I don't live in an apartment because of all sorts of reasons. Children shouldn't have their development limited by a synthetic instrument that mimics the real thing. They should have the real thing.

I have a young child, and got back into pianos and DPs for this reason. You make a lot of good points here, 8 Octaves, and it's really making me think about whether I should just start her off on an acoustic, as we are fortunate enough to have that option.

I would, however, like to present the flipside: I took years and years of lessons as a kid, starting from a very young age. I never thought about action, about the quality of sound, whether the piano was in tune, or how an upright, grand, or digital piano actually works. None of these instruments felt "right" or "wrong" to me, I just played on what I had to play on. And on the few occasions I played on a keyboard, I could tell the tone and feel was clearly different but I just didn't approach it with the same level of scrutiny as I do now when comparing DPBSD samples. When you're a kid, you just do it, and you just adapt.

And now I've grown up, and you know what, I really like DPs, and think about them way more than I've ever given a thought to an acoustic when I was playing and giving recitals and taking exams. And when we have family visit, the kids (age 5-12) love the DP and sometimes play on it for hours. I've never asked them to compare it to their uprights and grands at home but they're clearly not disgusted by any sense of fakeness.

So I guess kids differ. If there's something really lacking about today's DPs that hinders learning and hampers building technique, that's a really good reason to try to stretch for a real AP. But if it's just because they'll notice it's different, then who knows, some might like the digital even better...

+1 =]

I've heard that digital pianos are better for children as their developing brains are more likely to develop perfect pitch with an instrument that is always perfectly in tune.

I don't doubt that some children don't like certain digital piano sounds. But that goes for adults, too. I often can't stand certain brands that are other people's favorites. That also goes for acoustics. You just need to involve your children in your pick of digital piano if they are to play it.

If the child is 12, I might agree. Since the child is 4, I don't think it's very important. It's reasonable for Dad (or Mom) to decide on the piano -- the child's job is to learn music, and it's just a tool for doing that.

I had a bunch of reasons for getting a DP, rather than an acoustic. So far, in three years or so, I haven't regretted the decision. There's something really nice in being able to say to band-mates:

. . . "No problem, I'll bring the piano."

Another consideration for digital - when we were making our decision, we came to the point where we said ok, we'll go for a nice upright acoustic with or without a silent system and settled on a max budget ; looking at a few models (Yamaha, Kawai) and then finding out their weight I set about finding out how one would actually make it to our house and then up the stairs to our livingroom ( our house is a drive-in model , with garage and garden room on the ground floor ) and found out I would need to basically dismantle part of the stairwell structure to get it up to the livingroom and that getting to our house and then up those stairs amounted to inflating the budget by another 20% ( delivery and up those stairs was about 800€ )

Then the maintenance questions arose - and with our house going from cold n bone dry to hot and humid with regularity, those numbers were adding up to a picture that started to pain us a little.

So eventually the question became one of do we do this or not - and the DP allowed it to be a yes we can do this.

Yes the action from our digital is different from an upright, as an upright is different from a grand, as one piano would be different from another, and the sound is different ( but tonally correct due to modelling used ) but it is a _musical_ instrument and one that is there as opposed to one that could not be ^^

My kids started piano at ages 5 and 8. They played when I told them to play and with what tools I gave them. It's been 3 years now and the youngest has fingers that can fly. If we were crazy parents, we'd send her to a music conservatory where she'd be learning music 6-8 hours a day and she probably could end up as a concert pianist in the future.

But really, she'd rather play video games, watch TV, read comic books, skate, bike, even just talk random nonsense with her brother -- than practice music regardless of whether it was digital or acoustic. So we demand they practice a reasonable 30 minutes a day and they'll just grow up to be ordinary people with decent music skills.

Basically this discussions is way too advanced for a target 4 year old. Get a Casio PX160 ($600) or a Roland FP30 ($800) and it'll last many years for your kid. If they have the SELF-MOTIVATION to practice nonstop, then it's time to consider something beyond amateur playthings. If you want to play around with VSTs and high tech toys, that would a spending decision for you -- not your kid.

Thank You !!!!!!!!!!!!!!

yeah I think this thread has cross threaded a little with some others ^^

My main regret is will be zero chance I will remember that this discussion is in a pianoteq thread when I want to come back to it in the future.

Apologies for turning this in to a what piano thread! I managed to try out the Roland mentioned above, it was surprisingly good for the price, so perhaps I'll follow the advice above ... the Roland for the 4 year old and Pianoteq for me ... and perhaps another guitar given I came in way under budget!

Good Decision.

And ... be sure to try out the DEMO version of Pianoteq before buying.

Since you are just beginning, my personal thinking is that you will have your hands full just trying to learn to play without adding in the issue of an external sound engine.

good choice ^^

The cheapest pianoteq is 99 - and upgrades to more expansive models is only a small hit on going for the fuller packages right away

There is a new player in town for fully modelled piano software but darn it I forgot to bookmark it.. I remember they are going to be at NAMM so probably soon some more easily found news out there on it.. I think I remember their price was around 249 or therabouts with free updates and free custom model expansions

Try the Pianoteq versions of both Blüthner and the Grotrian, you'll be amazed.

If you plan on getting some of the extra pianos (Model B, Bluthner, Grotrian) and you also want electric pianos, the better deal is to buy Pianoteq with the Electric Piano flavor because you get both the R2/W2 and the Hohner pack. There are plenty of free acoustic piano packs available so you may not need/want the D4/K2.

+1.

I learned a lesson, quickly, after I got Pianoteq:

. . . Just because the piano sounds better, doesn't mean
. . . that you can _play_ better !

I'm really happy with the Pianoteq Grotrian (and the Bluthner, before that), but they don't fix my mistakes.

true true XD but shiny buttons =D

I need an interpreter for this.

I have no idea what this means.

lol Sorry
http://i0.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/original/000/017/436/XD_Face.png
Similarly =D when seen vertically..

and no not a teenager - good half century almost =O