I use humidifiers to keep the room my piano is in humdified. 45-49% is generally considered the best for a piano, but over the past several years I've read articles that claim keeping the indoor humidity level that high during the winter is unhealthy and invites problems. (And, in fact, if we were to keep the humidity that high, our windows "sweat!")

I read another little blurb in The Boston Globe newspaper about a month ago that stated anything above 35% during the winter is not good.

Does anyone know anything more on this subject?

Is there a Doctor in the House?

Jeanne W

P.S. I shoot for 35% humidity during the winter. I don't have a damp chaser.

Jeanne,

I can't address the health issues of humans but pianos and furniture are most happy at 40-45 RH.

Please give the Dampp Chaser system some consideration for your beautiful piano. Now is the time to do it while the renovation is still brand new. Keep in mind that the system not only provides humidity in the winter, but also lowers the RH during the summer.

BTW, your post about the fireplace was excellent. I am sure that this is often overlooked.

Jeanne,

Here is a great site that will explain what you wanted.

http://www.ag.ndsu.edu/pubs/ageng/structu/ae1204w.htm

Hi Jeanne W.

I too try to keep the humidty at 40% or better but I live in Canada on the prairies where it is quite cold in the winter...although we prairie people call it 'a dry cold' !!!

The windows sweat terribly when the mercury drops to the deeps,..but I keep one of those big floor fans going, (rather than the furnace fans that draw in outside cold dry air) to keep the sweating to a minimum. And for the most part it works well until about minus 25 C. Then I have to turn the humidifier down otherwise I have water running off the windows.

My piano tuner calls me the piano Humidity 'Poster Boy' and my window replacement guy calls me something else, much less complimentary.

My back-up during cold weather is to place a lot of house plants in big pots that hold water,...under the piano. It's a 9' so I can put a lot of pretty stable humidity under there without trashing the windows.

Give it a try.

Skyblanche

Skyblanche,

I've heard of talking to plants, but ...

With a 9 footer you could raise a half acre of corn and they would be all ears.

Someone please put a damper on me!

Actually, it might be a good idea.

-25 C?

brrrrrr

http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/picrender.fcgi?artid=1474709&blobtype=pdf

http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/pagerender.fcgi?artid=1474709&pageindex=8

Don't worry - that is outside.

I regularly fly up North for piano servicing. They usually experience a few solid weeks of -40 at this time of year. The ice on the lakes gets over four feet thick and doesn't thaw until June...

we're in the throes of a cold snap like that right now. pretty chilly after spending five days in southern california.

my windows are sweating away. i'm going to replace them this year with fiberglas windows.

i watched the humidity drop by the minute this morning as the mercury dipped. right now i am running two humidifiers.

My humidification solutions in the Boston area:

1. Good humidifiers. The Venta and Air-O-Swiss (made by Plaston) are expensive, but they really do work well and are reasonably quiet at low speeds. Very little maintenance is required except for frequent filling. Of course, if you have a forced air system, you can install central humidification.

2. In-piano humidification. When we are away (like last weekend with temperatures in the teens), I close the piano with a Meyne humidity regulator inside. My technician recommends them. I hadn't heard about them on the forum before. It's a simple device - basically, a 4-foot plastic tube filled with absorbent paper. As the humidity drops, the tube release moisture into the air. I was skeptical at first (and worried about leakage), but when I returned this weekend and my house had a relative humidity of 25% (can't keep those humidifiers filled), the piano interior was at 35%.

Obviously, YMMV. My windows next to my larger Venta unit do "sweat" and I have had the occasional pool of ice on the windows in the early mornings. Opening the shades during the day usually dissipates any moisture quickly.

Steve

I am still marveling at how much closing off the fireplace with the plastic is working. (See my other post about this:

http://www.pianoworld.com/ubb/ubb/ultimatebb.php?/topic/1/20855.html

We can open doors to other rooms and maintain my desired humidity. Last night temps fell into the 20's and the humidity went up to 40% which is higher than I'd like it (for healthy house reasons). Both air-o-swiss had been on high, so I turned one down to low and this morning humidity is 40%. It NEVER would have been that high before.

Pique: You might want to think twice before installing new windows. The Handy Man in The Boston Globe just got done saying that new windows are so expensive you'll never reap back the expense in saved heating costs. And if a person has a historic house with windows with that old wavy glass in it (like ours), it'd be a shame to just get rid of those good old windows, which can be repaired, and replace them which new windows windows, many of which have a limited life span of 20 years or so.

Storm windows may be a better investment.

Steve / sepstein: A few years ago when I was looking around for alternatives to a damp chaser, I came across a website that had a product like the one you're talking about - the Meyne humidity regulator. It may be the same one. But this was something that you put right into top of the piano. Is the Meyne a device that sits in the piano? Can you tell us a little more about it or have a website address? It sounds interesting.

SkyBlanche: I like your idea of growing plants under pianos. Heh hhe ehhahhha

Jerry & LiztAddict: Thanks for the excellent website links.

Jeanne W

Related to the subject of things that steal away humidity in houses...

I have been looking up on the net companies that manufacture and sell "invisible storm windows". These are hard plastic or glass windows that fit inside (sometimes outside) your windows that are removable. They are not as expensive as installing a whole brand new window, but they're a little pricy, say a hundred dollars and up per window. Some come completely assembled ready to install, other places sell do-it-yourself kits.

Last night before falling asleep I came up with what I hope is a good idea for an easy to make yourself, practically invisible interior storm window.

I will test out my idea and if it works, I'll start a new thread about it.

Jeanne W

Hi all,

I live in Quebec where -20s and -30s are quite normal this time of year. I find it impossible nor desirable to keep humidity at more than 35% during the winter. As long as it doesn't fall below 30%, you're OK. Below that (30%), you're looking for trouble for both humans and pianos.

I'm not a fan of the Damp chaser system for it will save the piano ONLY and not the humans living in the house. If you feel good in your house, chances are your piano will too!

For summer when it's too damp, I use a low power light (40Watts) right under a grand or inside the botom of an upright that I leave open all the time to keep humidity between 40-60%. It really works and you save on tunings.

Mario, I am interested in your idea of a light under the piano to reduce the humidity. But I am not familiar with the Quebec climate. How high would the humidity in your room typically be in the summer, if you did not use the light?

Mario: I like the idea of putting a lightbulb under the piano. A while back someone discussed what a difference putting a string of Christmas lights under a piano makes in lowering humidity. A lite bulb? I think I'll try it. I'm leery of damp chasers my own self.

I think part of my reluctance about damp chasers could be solved if I knew the dampchasers were checked and calibrated each time I had my piano tuned. I seem to recall a thread a while back that the idea of calibrating damp chasers after installation was news to most techs. I'm not sure I'm remembering this correctly, though.

Then there was the thread that really scared me - a guy supposedly had stuff (mold/mildew) growing on the bottom of his piano soundboard. He had lots of technical readings (hour-by-hour) of the humidity, etc.

Getting back to the subject of this thread, shooting for 35% humidity during the winter is a good compromise I'm happy with.

Jeanne W

Has anyone heard of or had experience with the Desert Spring whole house humidifier?

Sophia

Hi, Sophia:

I don't have any knowledge of Desert Spring myself but there are at least a couple of references to the Desert Spring humdifier in old PW posts. To find them, scroll up to the top of this forum page, click on "search" and enter "Desert Spring humidifier" as a search in the "piano forum". You should find a handful of posts which had some mention of this humdifier system.

Other than that, you may be better off posting a new thread asking your question. That way more people will see your question as opposed to it being buried in this post.

I hope this helps!

Jeanne W

There is very little info I can give you. Yes, you put this directly into the piano - mine is sitting on the iron frame on the treble side just next to the case.

I have a brochure that my technician provided, but there is no website, address, or phone number on it. A Google search came up with one store in Germany selling it for 59 Euro, and one prior mention in Piano World (someone else looking for information).

I should be scheduling another tuning soon, so I will ask my technician then unless someone can come up with more info before then.

One other thought ... much of your humidity loss is probably following a similar path as your heat loss. Many utilities will do a free energy audit for you (or you can hire an independent contractor to do a more detailed analysis). Plug the heat loss holes (air holes) in the home, and I suspect your humidity will be retained a bit longer. Just a guess ...

Stephen

Here's a link with pictures (I hope this works):

[url= http://64.233.179.104/translate_c?hl=en&...a20dc3ccfc63555 c6c8546da0c0751a&prev=/search%3Fq%3Dmeyne%2B%2522humidity%2Bregulator%2522%26num%3D100%26hl%3Den%26safe%3Doff%26client%3Dfirefox-a%26rls%3Dorg.mozilla:en-US:official%26hs%3DuaD]Mey ne Humidity Regulator[/url]

Meyne Humidity Regulator - fixed link

From the website for the Humidity Regulator:

"Item Description:

Luftfeuchtigkeitsregler / Humidity regulator for Piano wing + 1 m long with bracket

In dry air: Just in the bathtub with water and put vollsaugen.
When moist air: The air humidity regulator, the excess humidity, and when they fall there. This instrument is in a uniform climate. "

I think it lost a little in the translation.

This does look like the device I had seen a few years ago on the web.

Thanks for the links.

Jeanne W

Thanks, Jeanne!

Sophia

David-G wrote:
100%

I would like to throw another thought into this thread. My technician told me on his last visit that older pianos appreciate a higher humidity, as would have been common in houses before the advent of central heating. The wood, he said, was dried to a lesser extent than it is now. He told me that 55% was a good figure to aim for.

55% seems way too high to me. For humans.

In our old house, that is healthily not 100% airtight, I'm thinking we'd have lots of condensation on woodwork, walls, etc. if the humidity was at 55% during the winter.

Jeanne W

Jeanne, the brand name of the humidity regulator ( I use that term somewhat loosely) rod is Hydroceel. (Google it)

There is a smilar product in the US:

http://www.musicsorbonline.com/

Three points I've picked up on...

1) I know that I have been one who has refered to Desert Spring humidifiers - I have two attached to the furnace that heats the lower half of the house. They do moderately well in dry Denver, but it's an uphill battle. They only add moisture while the furnace fan runs. I've considered the much more expensive steam unit, but haven't jumped yet.

2) Speaking of furnace fans - Skyblanche - typically the furnace fan does not draw in outside air, but rather recirculates inside air. Outside air is drawn into the burner, used for combustion, and sent back out the chimney. Were that air going into the house, you'd asphyxiate everyone with carbon monoxide. [edit: Some of that outside air naturally circulates into the house, but not much.]

3) Mario - the 40w light is doing the very same thing (at about the same wattage!) as the heater bars on a Dampp Chaser system. Raising the temperature lowers relative humidity. That's half of the DC system, the other half being the humidifying part that some of us need in other regions!

Bob,

Things are pretty dry here as well in the winter even though my home is only a couple of hundred feet from Lake Michigan which has always surprised me. Without any conditioning, my RH drops into the very high teens or low twenties on very cold days.

In our area, building code requires that forced air systems bring in some amount of fresh air from the outside over and above the combustion air. This has presented challenges to maintaining the 43-45% which I work towards. I have found that my whole house humdifier (an Aprilaire unit) used in conjuntion with a Venta airwasher (the big one), does the trick.

I believe that furnace humidifiers are normally wired to run only when the system is demanding heat. It is possible to wire them such that they will operate whenever just the fan operates. This way, the fan can be set to "ON" all the time or even (on Honeywell models) a RECIRC position. My son set this up in his house and it works great.

Just me 2 cents.

Gene

Right you are, Gene. My furnace area is designed to draw some outside air too (the draft created by the furnace burner draws air into the furnace room from outside, and some of that air can move about elsewhere). But it's still true that the bulk of what the furnace fan is doing is recirculation. I'm sure an HVAC guy would have the figures, but my little engineering mind would estimate the outside air contribution to be in the low single digit percentage.

The furance units that I've owned in three houses are all wired to run whenever the fan runs, so a couple of minutes lagging the call for heat. Since they are evaporative, they'd be pretty ineffective when the fan is still.

On the other hand, the steam boiler units are designed to control the fan regardless of the furnace heat demand, so that a humidity deficit is continually addressed. However the unit costs several hundred dollars, and the boiler plus added fan time would bloat the electric bill. For now, my furnace units, combined with the Dampp Chaser, are satisfactory.

Steinway recommends 45-65%. I keep 50-55% in the winter and attempt to stay below 60% in summer. I beleive this level of humidity is healthier than the dryness of below 40%RH. BTW I have a sears room humidifier and my piano room is closed off. I need this unit that is rated for 300 sq ft to run 24/7 in winter to maintain 50% RH.