Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Pianist Corner - Non Classical To those of you who learned this style with a teacher..

Hi guys, to those of you who learned with a teacher, how did your teacher approach this? Did you use method books to learn piano?

Do you learn songs by rote? Do you use lead sheets? Do you play mostly by ear and improvise? Do you read music fluently?

I have a student who wants to learn how to play non-classical music. He's a complete newbie.

Do you think the progression of learning is different for those who want to learn non-classical music?

For example, I introduced rhythm to him today in the context of note values. But I have this hunch that perhaps people who learn non-classical music learn a lot of rhythm by *feel*.

In my case, certainly that's true. It's all rubato. MuseScore can play lead sheets precisely as notated, and it's close but no cigar.

Our kind of music originated just as recording was becoming adequate, so we have the advantage of being able to hear how the greats did it. In fact, I can't imagine even wanting to play something I've never heard before. There's way more good music I've heard than I'll have time to get to in this life.

The *feel* comes from hearing recorded music. True for specific tunes and for general styles.

Lead sheets are a great way to start. You need to learn to play a melody line on the treble staff, and just the few chords you need for the song you're working on. With each new song, you learn a few more chords, until you run out of ones you don't know.

No offense, but ....

It would seem to me that your new student needs someone who understands and feels comfortable helping him learn this style of piano. It is quite clear, to me, that you do not.

Just a thought.

John-- So do you play everything by ear and lead sheets then if it's more by feel? What if you want to play a piano accompaniment exactly the way someone else did? Say Bruno Mars? sure, there are chords, but wouldn't your improvisation based on those chords be slightly different from the original?
Or, how does https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=15-Os2OjtZc become something like https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=15-Os2OjtZc
If you find something on musescore, do you simply copy it by ear? Or do you read the notes?
For example, one of the songs he said he knows how to play is Dr DRE- Still DRE, which sounds like essentially two chords to me.. for me, to figure that out by ear based on the youtube video
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_CL6n0FJZpk
would be pretty difficult and would take longer. Is this the way you would do it?
This is the way my student learned it -- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P8i_byNAo8c&t=63s
These things to me.. = not learning anything and also too slow.

For me, to play Still D.R.E., a music score that has been created like this --

https://musescore.com/user/1066221/scores/966901
would be the fastest, because I can read the music. Of course, it has taken many years for me to get to the point of being able to sight-read this.

But what would someone with your background do? Maybe ear training is the best for this approach? Do you just dabble around until you find something that sounds like the original video? Hook your keyboard up to your computer to get it on a score?



Hi Don,
I agree, but this is not really a long term thing. His gf signed him up for the piano lessons. I also charge at a rate that matches my experience.
The thing is too, he said he wants to learn to the "basics of piano", specifically how to read notes, versus playing off of chords and lead sheets. He had a piano book that has popular music with the chords and melody and then the piano part on the bottom that is more difficult. He wants to learn to play that bottom part. I can play that bottom part, but I don't think he knows how long that will take to do it the way I do it, which is to read the notes and to play it exactly the way that is written, basically the way musescore does it when you press play.
Even if he's going to learn how to read leadsheets, he has to start from the very beginning too, in order to read the notes of the melody line, right?
To me, knowing how to play non-classical is the same as classical practically speaking in the sense that if I have the score, I can read notes, read the rhythm, and play it. I do play with lead sheets as well, but it's not something I do exclusively. But it seems like many people who play non-classical music are actually not good sight-readers and are good.. something else. I'm trying to learn what this something else is, about other methods people use to play this type of music. I am not opposed to learning to teach this kind of style, if indeed it does include another approach. I'd like to know what I can do to lead him in the right direction, assuming there may be some shortcuts to arriving at where he may want to arrive. Also, please answer the questions, if you can!

I don't do much completely by ear, because I find I get things just a little wrong in certain places (rarely I find I like my version better....). Mostly I start with lead sheets or published books. The lead sheet gets me the right keys for the melody, the right chords, and rough time. Getting time right is what comes from recordings, and a feel for the style.

I don't ever want to play anything all the way through exactly like someone else -- I just cherry pick stealing little bits of the best stuff. ;-)

I'll try to watch the videos tomorrow.

He needs to find a teacher who teaches popular music only, no classical. The teacher can be classically trained but should play popular music on jobs and teach popular only. Listen to him play for you. Go listen to him in public on the job if possible. If you like the way he plays, start talking about lessons and go from there.

A classical teacher is what you want if you want to play classical music. However, if he does not prefer pop, play pop, and teach pop, you two cannot communicate properly or effectively.

That is the way I learned piano. However, I played clarinet and accordion before so I could read music very well.

If you are his teacher, please do both of you a favor and have him read this post and then send him on his way to find a pop teacher.

Fair enough.

I have been fussing with this for some time now (5 years or more) and what I have found is this ...

If you wish to arrange your own version of a pop (or jazz or blues) song from a leadsheet ...

You have to have a good understanding of ...

Major scales (in most keys) and how those scales are used in building chords and their inversions.

Then you have to play (out of time) many songs (chords in left hand, melody in right hand) utilizing that knowledge so you become very familiar with many, many, chords.

Then you may wish to try to play those same tunes with chord shells ... 1,7 in left hand, 3 and melody in right hand ... other chord tones as you wish.

Then, color tones ... 9ths, 11ths, 13ths.

All the while adding rhythm concepts to your playing. This is absolutely essential. Without solid rhythm, you can throw the rest away. This may include techniques such as Bass lines, stride, etc ...

Then, upper structure triads ... and fills ...

Then modifying melody for variations.

Then improvisation.

It is not easy by any means.

P.S. The above list is certainly not a complete list of concepts for this style of playing but it gives you some idea of what is involved.

Good Luck

That something else is ears. I can read music but I'm not great at it. I can take a piece of sheet music and learn it. But its painfully slow. But I can play most popular music by hearing it a few times. I can figure out the chords in most cases immediately and hear the rhythm. I might have to experiment a little to get the right inversion of a chord but that is many times evident by listening too. I figure out the chords by singing the melody and playing chords over it. Eventually many songs you will not only hear the progression but the key as well. At that point only certain notes fit so playing solos or melodic phrases is the same. Listening and playing. That's one thing a person who plays only with sheet music misses. They don't develop their ear and cannot figure out a song without that crutch. What may people who play only pop lose in the trade off is technique. Many classical teachers are very good at teaching technique. Their more advanced students can many times play pieces that are beyond my technical skill. But they can't hear a new song on the car radio and come home and play it like the recording. When I play gigs, I have an iPad. The only thing on it are Lyrics. Maybe sometimes 4 or 5 chord names at the top if the song is new. I play a lot with other people. A singer or guitar player will usually hand me a sheet of chords or lyrics, they will play it on their phone and I will then be expected to play it. Sometimes it just me accompanying a singer, with very little practice before the performance.

My teachers' approach is "Sound Before Symbol". So they have me internalizing musical concepts and ideas first before assigning a symbol to it. It's a very different approach from the traditional method of starting with the score.

(and I may not be a good example since I'm an adult re-beginner who took 6 years of lessons as a teenager)

Hi Don!

Thanks a lot! Really interesting. I understand the harmony on a theory level, because I took theory as part of piano studies and harmony class in college. I suspect that some of what is going on in popular music at least on a foundational level is the same as what is the foundation of most classical music, which is western harmony, but perhaps in a different language which might make for the confusion. But to what extent, I'm not sure. If you analyze classical music, you come up with similar things. So major/minor keys, chords (I, ii, iii, IV etc), inversions (root, 1st, 2nd)... (augmented, minor, diminished..)
1,7 and a 3 in the right hand is what I would call a dominant chord with the 5 missing. Color tones, sound like the 2nd, 4th, and 6th, but above an octave.

So do you listen for these extraneous things (color) in a recording typically, or do you listen for only the basic structure, I'm thinking the melody and the chords and add in your own color/variation? My problem with playing with lead sheets, is I could play every song the same way. My left hand in particular finds something that works and then wants to do it for everything. Same with guitar strums, I guess. So rhythm definitely seems to be the hardest part, hearing the rhythm that is unique in a song and reproducing it, pairing a rhythm with a melody that is somewhat at odds with it and not stumbling over your fingers.

that's where those rhythm practice sheets that someone else posted.. (Nahum maybe?) would come in handy..
Just thinking out loud..

This sounds great and makes a lot of sense! Thanks.

From where I sit ...

You are getting way ahead of where this student is (beginner you said ?).

Your role in his journey will start with where everyone starts. Learn the layout of the keyboard and relationship to notes you see on a staff. Play notes you see on staff. Learn scales (in all 12 keys). How chords are formed with scale notes. Play simple tunes with Chords given on leadsheet.

That will take you many months to a year or more.

And on and on ....

You will be learning right along with him.

You may wish to tell him that.

You probably should try to find a method book that addresses these things somewhat. There are a ton of HOW TO books about jazz cocktail piano and blues piano and pop piano.

I get those kind of students a lot.

Pop today uses triad chords, rarely anything beyond triads other than sus 4 or sus 2 for color.
Listen for the roots to hear the progression, then figure if each chord is a major triad or a minor triad and how many beats each chord lasts. Jot it down by chord name on a blank sheet of paper (not music paper) so you don't forget...
for example: ||: Ami | G | F | G :||

Most pop songs are 4 chords or less. That hip hop Dr DRe is only two chords Bbmi and Fmi, hip hop uses fewer chords than most pop...those "producers" know less harmony than any other producers in pop.

The most famous "4 chord pop formula is I V vi IV ("Let It Be","Don't Stop Believing", etc...) C G Ami F (OR SOME VARIATION OF IT, ie: re-order the sequence)

This video is almost true: "The 4 Chord Song"



These few songs helped me "hear" the chords:

I IV is "rock" ("You Can't Always Get What You Want", "Imagine")
I V is "classic" (Ode To Joy, many folk songs)
! V IV or I IV V is the "combination" (blues, salsa, rock, pop, classical)

rintincop--

I IV and V is what I hear in most songs, sometimes a vi as you said in pop. This is what I hear in church and traditional songs (classic) as you say, and especially children's songs as those are simpler. When it gets outside of I, IV, and V, and the occasional vi, I start struggling to hear out what the chord they are using is. I find the hiphop is kind of a strange sound to me, but it looks like it's just in a minor key?

the joke with the Pachelbel chord progression.. anyone seen this? it's pretty funny.. basically that it's everywhere, and it really is
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XPLp_gInC-o&list=RDXPLp_gInC-o#t=35
"punk music is a joke, it's really just baroque!"

dmd -- "How chords are formed with scale notes." Can you expand on that? Besides that in a major key, I believe it's, I, ii, iii, IV, V, vi, vii diminished typically if you build triads in the key. What else?

Hey hmni, there are a gazillion tunes written using I vi ii V ... "Heart and Soul", "Silhouettes", "Auld Lang Syne", etc.. Ears unwind a lot of music if you/your students allow them to. I vi ii V is an option right from the I IV V progression if you spend a lesson with students and listen as you play the two options. Ears get to where they automatically recognize many progressions without much thought at all.

Yep, rhythm is the gorilla in the room but the most fun to decypher (a least for me). I'd tell you to start learning LH rhythm patterns; 4 beat boom chucks, 3 beat boom chucks, short arpeggios, the shuffles to take care of some rock and 12 bar blues, New Orleans style, Alberti bass, etc.

Ears start to recognize what patterns work with different tunes ... so many choices, so little time.

Playing piano is not unlike solving a good cryptoquote only you are using the ears and 88 keys.

I am just referring to the concept that when you see a chord symbol, you build that chord by selecting scale tones.

Cmaj7 = 1,3,5,7 tones of the C major scale.

Bbmin7 = 1, b3, 5, b7 tones of the Bb major scale.

This enables them to build chords as needed when trying to work through a tune from a leadsheet.

DMD said in a post above ---

From where I sit ...

You are getting way ahead of where this student is (beginner you said ?).

Your role in his journey will start with where everyone starts. Learn the layout of the keyboard and relationship to notes you see on a staff. Play notes you see on staff. Learn scales (in all 12 keys). How chords are formed with scale notes. Play simple tunes with Chords given on leadsheet.

That will take you many months to a year or more.

And on and on ....

You will be learning right along with him.

You may wish to tell him that.

You probably should try to find a method book that addresses these things somewhat. There are a ton of HOW TO books about jazz cocktail piano and blues piano and pop piano. END

I say that this, DMD's post, is probably the most accurate and correct advice you have been given so far.

I learned from a pro who performed in hotels and restaurants and weddings in Cebu Philippines. He was classically trained, however, he also had years of performing non-classical gigs. I already knew how to read music but knew no chords. I had to learn all triads in all 12 keys first plus 6th, 7th's, dim7ths, and 9ths. After that he taught me from a lead sheet, melody line with chords written in above the line. He taught me each number exactly as he played on a gig. I only took lessons for 20 months and then moved away. However, even tho I could read music well and understood a lot about music I had to learn the chords. So even tho I had a musical background it took me almost three years from start to finish before I could play and get peoples attention. There is no short cut. You must learn to read the single note melody on a lead sheet and how to play chords in all inversions keeping the melody note on top.

One more thing, everyone talks about ear training and I agree. If you start young and have good hearing, you should learn to use it in music. However if you have a hearing defect, as I do, you can learn to sing the song, at least to your self if you sing badly. Do so in the shower or alone at home. Let it all hang out like you are a pro. Then when you play the song, sing it to your self while playing. Feeling and rhythum will be in the song even if you cannot tell one note from the other by sound. I am living proof of it, I have been almost deaf since mid 50's in the army.

I am sorry if I offend anyone with my post or opinions. I admit, I am a very opinionated grumpy old man, but I do not let that bother me, it took me 78 years to get that way. Good Luck.

Yes, it comes from the circle of fifths. Look at the circle and at the progression iii vi ii V I.

This is the original post. It then links to a hip hop song. I say reading music has no advantage in learning hip hop songs. It actually would be avoiding the issue. Hip hop producers don't use written music. It never serves their goal. There are thousands of good pop musicians who never learned to read. The Beatles and Stevie Wonder for example.

That video somebody posted showed exactly how to play the 2 chord keyboard part on that hip hop song. That is exactly how a teacher must teach non-readers. Show them slowly how it goes and how looks on the keyboard. Break it down. That is basic teaching. The teacher must learn the keyboard part from YouTube before each lesson. You need to stay a step ahead. We are in a new era.

Meanwhile learn to hear simple chord changes. Play simple chord progressions over and over on the piano to get the long term memory of how chords sound (hint: the root movement is the best clue).Pop music always uses simple chord changes.