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I am writing a workbook that explains a lot of this stuff, and has specific exercises to do, with charts to fill out and sections on Expected Observations so anyone can experiment on their own and see how this stuff works on a real piano.

Here is a chart I made up of the 7 NSL Tension Laws I've defined. These are for slow pull.

[Linked Image]

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Originally Posted by Mark Cerisano, RPT
...

When raising pitch the NSL tension is at the top of the Tension Band. WE KNOW that.

...
Emphasis added.

Mark, please use standard terminology. I may have something to add, because you do not mention rendering friction, but cannot know just what you mean when you use non-standard terms.


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There is no standard terminology. Just replace your own terminology in your own head when you read mine. Thank you.

Last edited by Mark Cerisano, RPT; 02/15/17 09:01 AM.
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Originally Posted by Mark Cerisano, RPT
There is no standard terminology. Just replace your own terminology in your own head when you read mine. Thank you.


And if my terminology has a different definition than your terminology, we will be talking about two different things. Been down that road before. No thank you. smile


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Mark, there is an inherent problem with your definition of "tension band". The tension values change depending on outside factors, such as how hard a note is struck. So when a string's tension changes for any reason, including rendering, new values for the "tension band" suddenly exist. It could be said that the ONLY time the NSL is NOT in the "tension band" is when a string is actually rendering.

So if I were to "Just replace [my] own terminology in [my] own head when [I] read [yours]" It comes out as: "When the pitch is changing, the string is rendering." So what?

However, if rather than using the term "tension band" you use standard terms, an intelligent conversation may be possible.


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I see. The problem we have here is that you do not understand the concept of the tension band.

Consider this. Two lines. The left is SL tension (SLT). The right is NSL tension (NSLT). No friction.


SL-------><--------NSL

Move NSLT up and SLT will follow.

But because of friction, SLT does not follow right away.

First NSLT rises but SLT doesn't, not until the friction is broken.

The friction will always be the same, therefore the amount that NSLT has to change will always be the same. That's the Tension Band, and given the same string and friction conditions, it will always have the same width.

Here's a graphic from my workbook that may help.

[Linked Image]

I don't know how many more ways I can explain it to you. You seem like an intelligent person. Please take this as a honest concern, but I think there maybe something else going on that is getting in the way of you being able to see how this simple concept works.

Last edited by Mark Cerisano, RPT; 02/15/17 09:43 AM.
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I'm going offline now. For anyone interested, Cold Turkey is an app that will allow you to choose sites that won't open for a specified time period. Great for productivity.

https://getcoldturkey.com/

I think it's only for MacOS.


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Originally Posted by Mark Cerisano, RPT
...

This range narrows and rises on hard blows.

...


Originally Posted by Mark Cerisano, RPT
...

That's the Tension Band, and given the same string and friction conditions, it will always have the same width.

...

I don't know how many more ways I can explain it to you. You seem like an intelligent person. Please take this as a honest concern, but I think there maybe something else going on that is getting in the way of you being able to see how this simple concept works.


What is getting "in the way" is your definition of "tension band" keeps changing. First the range changes, and then it doesn't.

How about just using standard terminology?


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Originally Posted by Mark Cerisano, RPT
I'll give you one example.

First the background.

NSL tension sensitivity depends on two things: the length of the NSL and the tightness of the pin block.

The longer the NSL, the less sensitive the tension is to pin movement.

The tighter the pin block, the more the pin moves, and the more the NSL tension changes during tuning and after the hammer force is removed.

Let's consider raising pitch with slow pull, on a large grand with not so tight pins, hammer at 12:00.

When raising pitch the NSL tension is at the top of the Tension Band. WE KNOW that.

When we arrive at the target pitch and remove the hammer force, the pin unbends to the left, perpendicular to the string; no change in NSL tension.

The pin untwists counter-clockwise. This lowers NSL tension. But because the pin block is not so tight, and the NSL tension is long, we KNOW the NSL tension does not lower very much at all.

This is a rare situation where the pitch may actually rise on hard blows because the NSL tension is left so high in the Tension Band.

I have proven these hypotheses and you can too. Just slow pull a string to any pitch, take note of the pin tightness and NSL length, measure the pitch, do a test blow, measure again.

If you change the hammer angle, you should be able to predict the resulting change in stability.

I.e. in the example above, if the pitch does rise, a change in angle from 12:00 to 3:00 will add unbending toward the string when the hammer force is removed. This leaves the NSL tension lower in the Tension Band, which may be enough to stop the pitch from rising.


All of this is pure speculation. The tension at any given point on the string should depend on the friction between the various sections of the string, and what the tension was in the various areas before the string gets to its final tension. If the difference between different sections of the string is small, the friction may be enough to keep the string stable even if there is a difference in the tension. This is how looped strings stay in tune on adjacent notes, even though there may be different tensions on them.


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The tension band narrows on hard blows but then goes back to its original size.

It's not speculation, it's hypothesis proven by experiment.

I think I'm done answering your questions Jeff. You seem to be the most skeptical of everything. You're welcome to post your comments and questions but I won't be answering them anymore. You seem to be posting the same questions over and over just so you can poke holes in my logic, which I continually defend, multiple times, the same attacks. It's getting tiresome.

All the best,




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Originally Posted by BDB
Originally Posted by Mark Cerisano, RPT
I'll give you one example.

First the background.

NSL tension sensitivity depends on two things: the length of the NSL and the tightness of the pin block.

The longer the NSL, the less sensitive the tension is to pin movement.

The tighter the pin block, the more the pin moves, and the more the NSL tension changes during tuning and after the hammer force is removed.

Let's consider raising pitch with slow pull, on a large grand with not so tight pins, hammer at 12:00.

When raising pitch the NSL tension is at the top of the Tension Band. WE KNOW that.

When we arrive at the target pitch and remove the hammer force, the pin unbends to the left, perpendicular to the string; no change in NSL tension.

The pin untwists counter-clockwise. This lowers NSL tension. But because the pin block is not so tight, and the NSL tension is long, we KNOW the NSL tension does not lower very much at all.

This is a rare situation where the pitch may actually rise on hard blows because the NSL tension is left so high in the Tension Band.

I have proven these hypotheses and you can too. Just slow pull a string to any pitch, take note of the pin tightness and NSL length, measure the pitch, do a test blow, measure again.

If you change the hammer angle, you should be able to predict the resulting change in stability.

I.e. in the example above, if the pitch does rise, a change in angle from 12:00 to 3:00 will add unbending toward the string when the hammer force is removed. This leaves the NSL tension lower in the Tension Band, which may be enough to stop the pitch from rising.


All of this is pure speculation. The tension at any given point on the string should depend on the friction between the various sections of the string, and what the tension was in the various areas before the string gets to its final tension. If the difference between different sections of the string is small, the friction may be enough to keep the string stable even if there is a difference in the tension. This is how looped strings stay in tune on adjacent notes, even though there may be different tensions on them.


Agreed. Pure speculation.

By tuning like this the pin is left twisted clockwise in an unstable condition, the pull of the string is not enough to untwist it in the pinblock hole, it will eventually untwist and detune the string, no matter where you left the NSL tension.

I studied that in my first lessons of piano tuning. Jim Coleman used the steady pull techinque, he raised the pitch, released the tuning hammer and said: "Now the string is in tune, but it won't stay there! You have to set the pin."

And yes, he talked about the effect of puting the lever at different angles, 9:00 O'Clock, 12:00 O'Clock, 3:00 O'Clock, etc. but this does not eliminate the need of setting the pin by pushing the lever counter clockwise.

It is thoroughly explained in the appendix D of Different Strokes by Ken Burton, which I posted above in this thread.






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I have been contacted by the Moderator. I will no longer post on this Topic.


Jeff Deutschle
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For what it's worth, I think the term "tension band" is a useful addition to terminology.

If no-one had invented new terms to describe things we'd be still pointing and grunting like our distant ancestors.

By definition the NLS tension is always in the "static" tension band at rest but the "dynamic" tension band (when playing) is narrower and you need to be in this narrower band for a stable tuning.

You can say the same thing without using the term "tension band" but it would be a paragraph instead of a sentence.

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I agree, but it's not for me to say, so I'm glad you did :-)

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