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Joined: Feb 2011
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Damn. There's lots of good useful parameters taken away from us there. WHY do that! Who does that benefit...
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It benefits V-Piano owners. Greg.
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The decay parameter is important. There have been posts from Bennevis on this, and my own experience is that I can more closely get that "out of control" sense that comes from poor pedal technique on acoustic pianos. That is one thing that digital pianos seem very forgiving about that is bad for those of us learning to play on digital pianos if we intend to also play acoustic pianos at some point. I try to get my hands on an acoustic piano when I can just to check that I can go between my DP and an acoustic with minimal adjustment. To me, that is important.
Tony
Roland V-Grand
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It benefits V-Piano owners. Greg. The parameter structure indeed is different... But we will never know for sure if the engines in the RD 2000 are updated or simplified versions of the orriginal V-piano... On top of that, you can t compare both instruments, the RD2000 has so much more to offer then just V-piano..
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I agree about adjustable decay...it is a beneficial feature to have (assuming the standard settings are inadequate). I remember with my V-Piano a low note sustained for over a minute on Vintage 1 sounds. No other instrument then available could get near that. You can extend the decay on some pianos (I think you can with Kawais) but the results are somewhat questionable.
I don't think there can be any doubt that they have 'updated' the modelling sound engine...the newer Rolands sound night and day better than V-Piano purely in terms of realism and fidelity to a real acoustic sound. I also think it's clear that the V-Piano was a tour de force of the technology side of things and it allows more scope for the player to adjust. That the newer ones sound better is no surprise. That they allow somewhat less scope for adjustment is likewise no surprise to me.
For what it's worth I played a few pianos on Wednesday, including FP90 and RD800. I was amazed to find I didn't like the new Roland action very much; far too bouncy and 'squishy'. The more percussive snap and crispness of the RD800 (which is probably closer in feel to the V-Piano's PHA-III than the new PHA-50) was preferable to me by some margin.
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The decays (and the resonances) are an interesting topic. Few of us have an acoustic piano to compare with. What do people think about Pianoteq's presets? Are they realistic and could they be used to "calibrate" a digital piano? And are Roland's (modelled piano) presets realistic or made for "cloth eared nincompoops" who don't know how a real piano behaves?
(Of course it depends on the acoustic piano's size, I suppose.)
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A physically modeled digital piano can be as good as your equipment is going to get. In the end you get what you pay for. From my experience, a real acoustic piano is always better than a digital, even if it might be slightly out of tune.
The advantage of a digitally modeled over the a sample based digital piano is that the modelling technology has inherently less disturbing artifacts, eg. no looping, no velocity layering, etc. (Given quality programmer, quality parts and quality assurance.)
Personally and for my digital solution only, I am very happy with Pianoteq's presets compared to the ROMpler piano, which I currently own. In my case this boils down to: "Nothing that would actively disturb my perception of the piano sound".
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It'd be nice if the missing V-Piano features could be enabled with some kind of a paid unlock key or something. (assuming the underlying system has the capability, of course)
Greg.
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->->->Originally Posted By ando in 2015 commenting on the 'new' HP/LX pianos: "So is the decay longer than previous HP/LX models? I really think decay time is the biggest problem for DPs. I hate it when notes die out before they should. Why did Roland leave out the adjustability of the decay? It's pretty much the first thing I want to change when I play with the sound. So frustrating! I would so buy one if it had this feature. Are you listening, Roland???" ->->->post by pv88 in 2015 commenting on the new HP603-LX17: "Yes, the above is absolutely correct as Roland has missed a very important feature in the new models by not having a "Decay Time" editable parameter available. One of the only reasons I have kept my V-Piano is on account of being able to lengthen the "Decay Time" parameter otherwise all other DP's are just a stick in the mud (i.e., trash) without it. I was hoping this feature would have trickled down into the LX-17 or some other model but it was not to be. Roland has missed the boat by not incorporating the most important features into their new pianos. As it is the V-Piano is the ONLY digital piano at this time that has sufficient decay and I am not so happy with the mediocre sounds, either. "Bosendorfer" presets -- Vintage II -- V-Piano: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Ewq6NgYpxAScott Tibbs is an excellent pianist but he sure doesn't have it right that the "Vintage II" presets sound anything like a "Bosendorfer" Imperial concert grand. What a joke -- the modeling is very poor in this regard as I can testify to this issue having owned a V-Piano for several years now and I simply will not make use of the Vintage II presets as they sound downright horrible. I also bought and own a Clavinova CLP-585 which has a far better Bosendorfer sample than what is in the V-Piano: https://app.box.com/s/vwmwyfgdf17ap4aeih9fi289hv5hgxodhttps://app.box.com/s/85w0sme9pddio6r2l4d5op9gdkzzd7xvThere are other PW members that have given away their V-Piano(s) due to the poor quality of the modeling. I haven't done so as of yet but things aren't looking very good in that regard. Roland should get their act together and develop a new modeled V-Piano with reasonable sounding presets. This modeling still has a long way to go to sound right." ->->->Now to the present time. Does the RD-2000 have a "Decay Time" editable parameter?? The RD-2000 does Not have a editable decay time.Here is the complete listing of the RD-2000 V-Piano parameters: TONE COLOR LID STRING RESONANCE DAMPER RESONANCE HAMMER NOISE DUPLEX SCALE KEY OFF RESONANCE CABINET RESONANCE SOUNDBOARD RESONATOR DAMPER NOISE KEY OFF NOISE Here is the list of the V-Piano and V-Piano parameters: SOUND LIFT SOFT PEDAL SENSE STRING RESONANCE DAMPER RESONANCE SOUNDBOARD RESONANCE KEY OFF RESONANCE UNISON TUNE STRETCH TUNE HAMMER HARDNESS CROSS RESONANCE ->->DECAY TIME <-<-TONE COLOR DAMPING TIME DAMPER NOISE LEVEL HP603, HP605, LX7 and LX17 parameters (Sound Designer): Lid 0–6 Key Off Noise Off, 1–10 Hammer Noise -2–0–2 Duplex Scale Off, 1–10 Full Scale String Res. Off, 1–10 Damper Resonance Off, 1–10 Key Off Resonance Off, 1–10 Cabinet Resonance Off, 1–10 Soundboard Type 1–5 Damper Noise Off, 1–10 I doubt very much that that is the entire set of editable parameters on an RD-2000. Or at least I don't understand how those parameters could be compatible with this testimonial on the Roland site: "I love the fact that each individual note can be adjusted for pitch, tone, attack & sustain, making it possible to go beyond the often clinical sound of other digital pianos." Mike Lindup, Level 42? Are they still going? That takes me back ....
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The decays (and the resonances) are an interesting topic. Few of us have an acoustic piano to compare with. What do people think about Pianoteq's presets? Are they realistic and could they be used to "calibrate" a digital piano? And are Roland's (modelled piano) presets realistic or made for "cloth eared nincompoops" who don't know how a real piano behaves?
(Of course it depends on the acoustic piano's size, I suppose.) You bring up a good point here. Modelling seems to focus on how an acoustic piano behaves. Whether a person likes the sound of a particular model is really a separate issue from modelling how an acoustic piano behaves, as long as it sounds similar to a piano. For me personally, since I don't have an acoustic piano to practice on, modelling the behavior of an acoustic piano is most important to me. Fortunately, I tend to like the modelled sounds too, but that really is (at least to me) a secondary issue to knowing that my technique (or lack thereof) is reasonably accurately producing the same results on my DP as I would get on an acoustic piano so that I would have no trouble going from my DP to an acoustic piano. That is why being able to control the amount of decay is important to me, while it may or may not be to somebody else. Tony
Roland V-Grand
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The decay parameter is important. There have been posts from Bennevis on this, and my own experience is that I can more closely get that "out of control" sense that comes from poor pedal technique on acoustic pianos. That is one thing that digital pianos seem very forgiving about that is bad for those of us learning to play on digital pianos if we intend to also play acoustic pianos at some point. I've been spending way more time than I should sitting in front of a good grand (not a 9' though) and comparing it to my home DP (non-modeled). IMO, setting the damper resonance a bit higher than normal successfully achieves that muddy "wash" of sound when you don't properly pedal, and it approximates the real AP enough where I end up making the same pedal corrections on either. I've noticed that I typically don't walk away from a session on the acoustic grand thinking that either the pedaling is different or that there is a huge difference in decays, sustains, or resonance. By far the biggest difference I notice is in the action, and there's definitely a bigger difference between good/bad grands than there is between high-end DPs. I still haven't had a chance to sit down at a fully modeled Roland, including the RD2K to compare (and I'm eager to do so), but I do think that even the non-modeled DPs have in the last few years made some very significant strides.
Bosendorfer D214VC ENPro Past: Yamaha P-85, P-105, CP50, Kawai MP11, Kawai NV10
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You must take into account however, than better sampled DP's have started to use modeling for the resonances. AFAIK, the MP11 and MP7 do so, and they're 'old' already.
Kawai Novus NV-10 | Pianoteq 7 (Kremsegg 1 & 2, Ruckers II, Karsten, KIVIR, Steinway D, K2) Intel NUC J5040, 8GB, SSD | iPad Pro 12.9 2018 | forScore
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You must take into account however, than better sampled DP's have started to use modeling for the resonances. AFAIK, the MP11 and MP7 do so, and they're 'old' already. That's where we get into a huge gray area, IMO. If you accept that, than the earliest sampled pianos that had digital reverb/sustain effects applied to the base sample are also "modeled" to some extent. I know it's a slippery slope. Btw, I just held down C1 on my MP11 with ~ff velocity and it rings out for over a minute (it gets pretty quiet after 50 seconds but I can definitely still hear it). So we can certainly talk about the quality of the sustain, looping, resonance, etc., but the actual decay/sustain length doesn't seem to be a systemic issue for modern-ish sampled DPs. As an aside, I remember trying this a few weeks ago on an SV-1, and the sustain on that was something like 5 seconds total? Sorry, now back to the RD-2000?
Bosendorfer D214VC ENPro Past: Yamaha P-85, P-105, CP50, Kawai MP11, Kawai NV10
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Hi.
I've just finished to read this Topic... And I still have a question :
How many acoustic pianos are in the RD2000 ? (not electric pianos or other sounds), just pianos.
Thank's a lot !
Roland FP-90 / Native Instruments "NOIRE" / Garritan CFX Lite / Cubase Elements 9.5 / JBL LSR 305 / BeyerDynamic DT770 pro 80 ohms
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Hi.
I've just finished to read this Topic... And I still have a question :
How many acoustic pianos are in the RD2000 ? (not electric pianos or other sounds), just pianos.
Thank's a lot ! The manual for the RD-2000 with the preset listings has not yet been released by Roland. There will be some modeled ones and some of the older supernatural sounds that use samples and modeling and then there are the regular sampled sounds that were on the RD-800. Since the presets are compatible (except the "V-Piano sounds) with the RD-800 sounds that implies that everything other than the new "V-Piano"(?) sounds will match-up with the rd-800. The RD-800 sounds are in this manual: RD-800 sound list I saw one posting that said there were 10 pianos in the V-Piano section.
Last edited by brooster; 02/19/17 02:49 PM.
The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament sheweth his handywork.
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It also has the fully modelled SN sounds, according to Jay.
Greg.
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Hi everyone. We don't have a lot of good examples of the RD-2000 sounds yet, though they look to be basically RD-800 sounds with the V-piano added, and some revamped EP sounds. Here is a new YouTube demo showcasing mostly acoustic piano sounds. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Pdw8PqyF5YShip date on my RD-2000 is early April, first or second week according to Sweetwater. Cheers!
Nord Electro 5D, Roland RD-2000, Lots of plugins, MacBook Pro 2016 TouchBar, Focusrite Clarett 8Pre, Grace Design M920, QSC K 12s, Focal CMS 65s.
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I watched this earlier. Is it me or do they all sound so samey?
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It also has the fully modelled SN sounds, according to Jay.
Greg. According to Roland the only fully modeled sounds in the RD-2000 are the V-Piano sounds. The SuperNatural sounds in the RD-2000 are some upgraded E Pianos and the SuperNatural sounds from the RD-800 with 128 note polyphony.
Last edited by brooster; 02/19/17 09:54 PM.
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Brooster: thanks. Here is Jay's post on the matter: link Greg.
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Piano
by Gino2 - 04/17/24 02:34 PM
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Piano
by Gino2 - 04/17/24 02:23 PM
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