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Euro yes but remember the exchange rate, dollar extremely strong. Thats about 63K USD including VAT Excellent deals throughout Europe.
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I would definitely take the SMP price from the Piano book with a grain of salt. Actually I think the numbers given could actually push potential buyers away because some or so high, especially the German brands. He has a Steingraeber 212 with a $140K price tag, actual price at least in Europe is $60K. The PB is for North America only(or maybe U.S. only I forget which). In the PM the SMP for the Steingraeber 212 is 125K and that's before the discount of around 10-30%.
Last edited by pianoloverus; 02/22/17 06:27 PM.
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I would definitely take the SMP price from the Piano book with a grain of salt. Actually I think the numbers given could actually push potential buyers away because some or so high, especially the German brands. He has a Steingraeber 212 with a $140K price tag, actual price at least in Europe is $60K. The PB is for North America only(or maybe U.S. only I forget which). Yes, but double the cost seems excessive to say the least. European delivery for autos has always been a thing, but more so with the stronger dollar. Great experience and with the money you save you get a free trip out of it.
Last edited by Miguel Rey; 02/22/17 06:26 PM.
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I would definitely take the SMP price from the Piano book with a grain of salt. Actually I think the numbers given could actually push potential buyers away because some or so high, especially the German brands. He has a Steingraeber 212 with a $140K price tag, actual price at least in Europe is $60K. The PB is for North America only(or maybe U.S. only I forget which). Yes, but double the cost seems excessive to say the least. You didn't include the up to 30% discount I mentioned. Also, your quoted figure seems suspect based on the comment of a respected U.S. Steingraeber dealer.
Last edited by pianoloverus; 02/22/17 06:33 PM.
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Euro yes but remember the exchange rate, dollar extremely strong. Thats about 63K USD including VAT Excellent deals throughout Europe.
Even so, I'll take two. The price you are throwing out is far below the EURO wholesale cost of the piano FOB Bayreuth (ex factory). Of course we then have to add packing,duty, customs clearance and airfreight. If you are accurate, they are selling the piano for less than Steingraeber does to its dealers. SO, if its a new piano, I'll be more than eager to buy several, and I'll even throw in an extra thousand for you as a finders fee!
Russell I. Kassman Technician -Consultant FORMER/Semi-Retired: USA Rep.for C.Bechstein & Sauter; Founder/R. KASSMAN Piano; Consultant - GUANGZHOU Pearl River Piano Co. www.RussellKassman.com
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It seems to me that maker with greatly inflated MSRPs could be considered less transparent in their pricing, and I started thread to see if that was true,
Yes I guess so. But there are loads of reasons why MSRP might appear too high e.g. exchange rate fluctuations, changes in demand, competition, age of the product, deliberate marketing strategy or simply the manufacturer being over-optimistic. For me it's only a meaningful figure if dealers are obliged to sell at or very close to the MSRP. As a rule of thumb if a product is being advertised at X% below MSRP by almost all dealers, then the actual discount is zero as far as I'm concerned. For example I have just bought a Roland DP with an RRP of £4839 and yet every single dealer is currently advertising them for £4399. Only somebody looking at a single dealer's pricing might think they had got a genuine 9% discount, but in reality it's actually the SMP and effectively zero discount. MSRP/RRP only has some meaning if dealers actually price it at that level. If you are trying to compare the quality of product A vs product B by their respective MSRPs then you are frankly wasting your time. Manufacturers are not going to consistently link quality vs MSRP as there is no standard any of them are pricing to.
Roland GP-607
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In my search I found a dealer on the East Coast of the US selling a 212 w/ carbon fiber for 59k just a few months back.
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To get back on topic,do your homework. I have been searching the planet for the best all around option for a new piano.
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Richard Dain at Hurstwood Farm Pianos sold basically everything he carried for far less than what dealers in the US ask. I have also heard quite a few other people mention that they saw pianos in Europe going for much much less than the US prices and wanted to import them.
Actually that reminds me, 10 years ago I saw a brand new Yamaha C3 imported from Japan which the "dealer" (not authorized, obviously) asked only 20k for, while in a real Yamaha dealer they were trying to sell them for around 30k. So maybe all the piano manufacturers are colluding to gouge Americans.
Normally you would expect that these kinds of price gaps are not supposed to exist...I have no idea what is going on, but I sure as heck would not pay the US sticker prices knowing what I know.
Last edited by trigalg693; 02/22/17 11:29 PM.
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On a practical note, in the U.S. I suspect the true price of all "top tier" pianos is probably, in the end, relative to the price of the comparable Steinway. For example, how much more will people pay for a Fazioli 212 or Boise 214 over a "comparable" (size-wise) Steinway B? Not much, I suspect...That's just the way it is.
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Richard Dain at Hurstwood Farm Pianos sold basically everything he carried for far less than what dealers in the US ask. I have also heard quite a few other people mention that they saw pianos in Europe going for much much less than the US prices and wanted to import them.
Actually that reminds me, 10 years ago I saw a brand new Yamaha C3 imported from Japan which the "dealer" (not authorized, obviously) asked only 20k for, while in a real Yamaha dealer they were trying to sell them for around 30k. So maybe all the piano manufacturers are colluding to gouge Americans.
Normally you would expect that these kinds of price gaps are not supposed to exist...I have no idea what is going on, but I sure as heck would not pay the US sticker prices knowing what I know. As I understand it from reading other threads here, US prices are high because dealers have collectively agreed not to sell high end pianos over the internet or phone, only face to face dealing. In Europe there is no such agreement so it's a total free for all.
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On a practical note, in the U.S. I suspect the true price of all "top tier" pianos is probably, in the end, relative to the price of the comparable Steinway. For example, how much more will people pay for a Fazioli 212 or Boise 214 over a "comparable" (size-wise) Steinway B? Not much, I suspect...That's just the way it is. Seems like pure speculation. Do you have any facts to back this up? I would suspect the opposite. If someone can afford 100K for a Steinway B they probably can afford more for a similar size Bosie, Fazioli, or any other similar size but more expensive piano. And they would be choosing those Steinways makes because they preferred them...so why not pay more?
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I'm hoping this thread can get back to the original question I posted in the opening thread. Less than a handful of replies have dealt directly with my question:
If the percent increase from SMP to MRSP is large compared to average or median of other makes does this indicate that:
1. The dealer and/or manufacturer hopes that the buyer will use the MSRP as the starting place for negotiation(or just accept the MSRP as the selling price) and therefore make a larger profit?
2. The dealer hopes the customer will think they're getting a better deal than they really are?
Last edited by pianoloverus; 02/23/17 08:37 AM.
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But there are loads of reasons why MSRP might appear too high e.g. exchange rate fluctuations, changes in demand, competition, age of the product, deliberate marketing strategy or simply the manufacturer being over-optimistic. I'm not sure if many of the above are reasons why the MRSP would be chosen very high compared to the SMP. For example, since the MRSP and SMP are in the same currency, what does the exchange rate have to do with their relative values? Age of a piano might mean the dealer would be willing to sell it for less, but this does not seem related to either the SMP or the MSRP.
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In my search I found a dealer on the East Coast of the US selling a 212 w/ carbon fiber for 59k just a few months back. As has been discussed many times on this forum, these one-off examples usually mean there are some special circumstances like the piano has been used for concerts, or sitting on the dealer's floor a long time, or the dealing is no longer carrying that make piano, or the dealer is desperate for cash. So they have little relevance to figures in the PB or usual prices. Wasn't it already stated by a highly regarded dealer that this price is below dealer wholesale cost?
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But there are loads of reasons why MSRP might appear too high e.g. exchange rate fluctuations, changes in demand, competition, age of the product, deliberate marketing strategy or simply the manufacturer being over-optimistic. I'm not sure if many of the above are reasons why the MRSP would be chosen very high compared to the SMP. For example, since the MRSP and SMP are in the same currency, what does the exchange rate have to do with their relative values? Age of a piano might mean the dealer would be willing to sell it for less, but this does not seem related to either the SMP or the MSRP. I meant that the MSRP might have originally been specified in a different currency and then simply converted for all other markets accordingly at whatever exchange rate was applicable at the time, which could later become quite distorted. By age of piano I meant where a particular model was in its product life cycle, not the age of a specific piano in a dealer showroom. For example newly released models tend to sell closer to their MSRP than models close to end of line. I think I'll give up on this thread as I don't think there is any one specific answer to your question i.e. what does percent increase from SMP to MSRP indicate? For me it indicates very little, so good luck with that!
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In my search I found a dealer on the East Coast of the US selling a 212 w/ carbon fiber for 59k just a few months back. As has been discussed many times on this forum, these one-off examples usually mean there are some special circumstances like the piano has been used for concerts, or sitting on the dealer's floor a long time, or the dealing is no longer carrying that make piano, or the dealer is desperate for cash. So they have little relevance to figures in the PB or usual prices. Wasn't it already stated by a highly regarded dealer that this price is below dealer wholesale cost? This is to show that it is possible even in the US. I can't see a dealer taking a huge hit unless he was going out of business, which he was not. Another poster has also stated his experience in Europe as well. You can easily verify by expanding your search, there is no secret here.
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In my search I found a dealer on the East Coast of the US selling a 212 w/ carbon fiber for 59k just a few months back.
FWIW, that piano is older stock on a discontinued model and the dealer is no longer an authorized Steingraeber dealer. It has nothing to do with the price of a new Steingraeber with the current design. Every dealer who has instruments with atypical designs that have not sold for years ends up cutting their losses to get rid of the instrument and at least gain some capital back.
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I'm hoping this thread can get back to the original question I posted in the opening thread. Less than a handful of replies have dealt directly with my question:
If the percent increase from SMP to MRSP is large compared to average or median of other makes does this indicate that:
1. The dealer and/or manufacturer hopes that the buyer will use the MSRP as the starting place for negotiation(or just accept the MSRP as the selling price) and therefore make a larger profit? [i]Of course, perceived inflated value is a great negotiation tool for the seller. Virtually all products are sold this way.
2. The dealer hopes the customer will think they're getting a better deal than they really are? Basically the same as above but in reverse. [/i] The Piano Buyer is a very informative resource, however let's not forget it is a median for advertising, a lot of it. There is a reason why it's free in it's full format online. I would not rely on SMP for negotiation.
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The Piano Buyer is a very informative resource, however let's not forget it is a median for advertising, a lot of it. There is a reason why it's free in it's full format online. I would not rely on SMP for negotiation.
The SMP is calculated the same way for every maker, regardless of whether they advertise with us or not.
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