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I have a scale manual (several actually) but I only really learned the fingerings for the ones starting on black keys after figuring out the logic for them visually on the keyboard. Which is to start with the right finger to end up with the thumb on the white keys. Simply memorizing the fingerings from the chart seemed like an impossible task.

BTW. My brain is so twisted that I cannot play scales if I don't keep the alternate 3-1 and 4-1 pattern from the beginning, so for example I have to start B major LH with the thumb on B instead of 4 because otherwise I would play 4 twice in a row and get confused. Similarly F major I have to end with RH thumb instead of the usual 4. Until I started doing this I always messed up these scales because my brain refused to accept the inconsistency.

BTW. What is "natural scale fingering"?

Just bought the scales book mentioned by someone earlier in this thread- been playing six months now and it looks like a great book

If it's the Alfred's book, yes, it's a great reference. With some scales, I forget what fingers to start with. Once I know that, I really don't think about a pattern. I know where the sharps/flats will be and my fingers just seem to go to the right place .. and sometimes they don't Since I'm preparing for RCM 3, I know D/F/Bflat major and B/D/G harmonic/melodic minor very well. I think once you develop the dexterity to do a hands together two octave parallel scale (whatever key), other scales become easier. I first learned C and it took me quite some time to get that right. But after that, learning other scales didn't take as long.

Been practicing C over two octaves - managed to get up to 150 beats on the metronome - other scales though so far only practicing one octave- ( more than one octave is where it gets tough )looking forward to the book arriving though which is the Alfred one btw

Natural Fingering is based on Chopin's method. It matches the hand's anatomy to the topography of the keyboard. The idea was supported very strongly by Heinrich Neuhaus and is now growing increasingly popular.

PianoStreet's Bernhard also championed it here.

Thanks!

Thanks for sharing. I'll have to give that a try, the F major and G major examples given and starting LH with 3. I'll also ask my teacher on Saturday and see what she thinks

To clarify I know how to play guitar and keep some rhythm. Took guitar lessons when I was 12 for 6 months and self taught after that. I did violin in Junior High for 3 years and know how to read the treble clef and some bass clef. I am a song writer and sing. Genre is praise and worship background. I just started piano again. What I meant to say is start where I left off. I only know the main simple triad chords in major and minor with inversion 2 I think on some chords and can keep a rhythm. I took a music theory class in college in 2005 and have forgotten some things.

Here is a video of what very very little I do know regarding piano.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r0DDuCEfXEE&feature=youtu.be

What should I do next if I plan on learning by ear. Should I just learn chord progressions, learn some scales and then figure out how to improvise with fills? What is the next step? I don't want to learn via sheet music. I want to be able to write songs by hearing the music as I think that is the path for me. For example, the video above is a song I wrote or still in progress ...thanks

Are you able to do on guitar what you want to do on piano? Are you transferring guitar skills to piano or are you adding new skills while you learn piano?

That is: Can you pick out a melody that you hear (or imagine in your head)? Can you pick out or add appropriate chords? Can you add fills?

I don't think working on scales is going to be as much help as you think. (Do you practise them on guitar?)

How much harmony do you have?

I know some of Elvis Presley's background is Gospel. Are the songs you write all in one key, like Gospel? If that's the case, all you need is familiarity with the chords of the key you're in. The fills, just like on guitar, are based largely on the chord tones with some passing notes. And just like on guitar, change as few notes as possible, as a rule, when you change chord. Keep the tonic in root position and change to the nearest inversion of the next chord as a starting point.

Listening to the kind of music you want to emulate and experimenting is a good way of progressing from there.

Sound advice. thanks

Are you able to do on guitar what you want to do on piano? Are you transferring guitar skills to piano or are you adding new skills while you learn piano?

On guitar I know a few fills based on a few scales, but mainly stick to rhythm with chords. I want to go beyond that with piano and play more melodic. I do not want to just keep rhythm on piano, but do something like these with a melodic style:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YmU5rG4ugPw
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ra6fDM8VVtw

That is: Can you pick out a melody that you hear (or imagine in your head)? Can you pick out or add appropriate chords? Can you add fills?

Yes, I can hear a song and form a melody.
Mainly yes, I can find the root chord of that melody and derive the needed basic chords for most keys.
No, this is where I know I am stuck. I feel that if I cannot learn the scales then I cannot form fills based on the appropriate scales. I don't know how to get those fills or even where to begin for them to make sense besides just playing the three standard notes in the chord in a different way. There has to be more based on what I hear like the videos above...

I don't think working on scales is going to be as much help as you think. (Do you practice them on guitar?)
No, it has been years. I know a rock scale and a spanish scale and yes I hardly ever use them.

How much harmony do you have?
In singing I can find some of the harmony, but I have always focused on the melody.

Hmmm! pianomusings is a well trained classical pianist. There's a good ten years of guided study with a teacher in that stuff.
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The notes of a scale are the notes of the principal chords put in order.

The principal chords in G are: G maj (GBD), C maj (CEG) and D maj (DF#A). Those notes, GBDCEF#A, in order, are GABCDEF#. Ta-da! A G major scale.

When you're playing the chord of G add passing notes from the other two chords (CEF# and A) but avoid those notes on a strong beat.

Experiment with that a little and see how your get on.

That is a good tip and I will try it out. Maybe I do need to go classical route...Yeah, his music I think is above standard listening to it.

I don't think you necessarily need to take the classical route if that's not the kind of music you want to play. But it would greatly help to find a teacher to help you build the necessarily skills. It is probably easier to find a good teacher for classical training though...

But I had a g/f that was a University graduate, and a wife before that (Who was not a University graduate).
Both of them had to stop now and then to redo their laces.
After I taught them how, they had no problem anymore.

Maybe it's just that I don't know how to pick my women.

Playing any random scales at will on the piano, is more useful while playing jazz.

If I would need to play scales in a classical piano piece, I would practice them within that piece, which I do. I haven't seen the more advanced classical compositions containing scales, though. Not very musical, and only fragments usually.

I don't see much value in making it a separate study to play scales within that idiom.
Unless you take a comprehensive piano education program, then you are forced to do it.

If you want to play Gospel, then it's more about chords, rhythms, and licks. And there are courses that specialize in that genre.

Hey RaggedKeyPresser,

Thanks for your reply. I decided to take this course to start. Even though it goes over basic scales it goes over what I think I need for gospel music. Please see the course description.

https://www.udemy.com/how-to-play-piano-go-from-a-beginnerintermediate-to-a-pro/

Is this course a good starting point?

I looked at that site and the course.
I would not jump into that one too quickly.
Too me it seems like way too much attention and time paid to scales and basic theory. How long, and will it help you to make real music?
Prepare for a long and dull period.

Gospel e.g. has energy, drive, and is uplifting.
From what I can see, this will not provide a straight path in that direction.
Have you checked out Jermaine Griggs courses?
E.G. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aapLUt7Ly3o

I also looked at your video playing the keyboard. There are some technical aspects you need to look at seriously. And that is what a good teacher will point out in the 1st lesson.
Taking the body position seriously in front of the keyboard...And using a healthy finger technique. I'm seriously looking at your totally flat right pinky! It's even bent backward at the joint.
That will totally kill your progress when getting to more difficult material. There are other things too, of course.

+1

Compared to videos, books are hard to read in the wrong order and less likely to assume knowledge not already given. Established methods like Alfred's, Faber, Bastien and Hal Leonard, etc. are more likely to be beneficial.

I checked out the course. It appears to me to be theory heavy but I believe the Russian Method approach, which emphasizes dynamics and nimbleness, is more beneficial though much more difficult to teach.

There is one online course that is dedicated to the Russian Method, but when I wrote to them asking for an outline of all the videos and written instruction of the course, I didn't get any answer, so I didn't pursue it.

In summary, at this point in my learning process, I am focusing more on how to create sound as opposed to the theory behind music.