Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Piano Forum What does the percent increase from SMP to MSRP indicate?

If you don't want to rely on SMP what would you use as a starting point for negotiation?

Besides what terminaldegree mentioned in his reply to you, you should be aware that the current PB existed for more than 20 years in two hard cover only formats called The Piano Book and the yearly Supplement to the Piano Book. Fine used the same key idea of SMP vs. MSRP in those books, and the books had no advertising.

+1 to Keith's reply.

As to SMP being a starting point for negotiations: There are many factors that determine what a dealer is willing to sell a piano for, among them availability of the product and ease of getting another one. Larry's SMP is largely a matter of his opinion, and his perception of the brand in the marketplace. It is not based on any facts or data.

The pure definition of capitalism is that a product sells for what the market will bare. A popular model of a brand that takes a long time to replace is not going to be heavily or even moderately discounted. Additionally, some manufacturers are very restrictive about the prices their products are marketed at. Others, as discussed here in other threads, artificially inflate the wholesale so that their MSRP appears higher. Why? Because we Americans largely judge a product by the price tag, and manufacturers know it.

An interesting side note is that the Hamburg Steinway has a vastly different MSRP than the American Steinway. Are some posters in this thread really suggesting that you can fly to Europe and purchase a Hamburg Steinway for less, or even the same price as an American Steinway? Even with a strong Dollar to Euro, that is a fools errand.

I rely on research from this site including public and private messages, phone calls and personal visits to gauge the market, one that is ever changing and very different from region to region.

Piano books is a great reference and wealth of knowledge but you need to do your own homework then it's up to you to decide what information to use.

IIRC, Hamburg Steinways aren't sold in the US, so you have to go to Europe to buy one, and given that everyone thinks the Hamburgs are better, it seems like the answer to your question is no. Now that said, I am not interested in a Steinway because I don't think they are remotely a good value purchase, apart from the few exceptionally good model Ds I have seen in some concert halls.

Prices for high end German pianos in Europe seemed to be MUCH lower than in the US though, somehow. That was the big shocker for me. You can even splurge on a business class ticket over the Atlantic for the weekend and still come out thousands of dollars ahead.

That just simply is not true (aka alternative fact).

First, Hamburg Steinways are sold in the USA . The Steinway factory store in San Francisco, or anywhere else, would be happy to sell you one.

Second, in this thread and another, you are making statements about comparisons in price that are, again, alternative facts. In order to make a valid comparison, the pianos must be equal, i.e. The same model, same features and same age. Additionally, all expenses, such as duty, freight, moving, uncrating etc. must be factored in, as well as fluctuations in exchange rate. The piano you selected, while I'm sure a fine instrument, is not new, and is not a comparable piano to a standard Steingraeber 212 with traditional construction, and the price listed on their website, in British POUNDS, is more than you could purchase one here for, as pointed out earlier in this thread.

If your assertions and prices were correct, then no US dealer would buy the instruments from the factory, but rather purchase them from a dealer somewhere in Europe. Obviously, the manufacturers would additionally lose all credibility with US dealers.

Well, I stand corrected about the Hamburg Steinways. My impression was based on the many pianists I know who seemed to think Hamburg Steinways were exceedingly rare in this country, and I have not seen a Steinway dealer carry them.

It's interesting that you are telling me about what I bought and how much I paid for it, and the price tags I observed with my own eyes. My piano is brand new...it had no visible hammer wear, it did not even have a fallboard made for it, and it also had a frame with the new Phoenix logo.

To ship a piano over here costs around 4000 USD, and once you subtract 1/6 of the price due to VAT exemption then add in shipping, the Steingraebers C212 I saw come out to a bit under the 80k USD mark when the pound was slightly weaker a few months ago, as I recall them being in the 70k GBP range. I admit I don't know if that is a really good deal compared to what you offer, maybe you can provide some input.

Additionally, I overheard a local Amateur Cliburn competitor talking about how he saw some really cheap Hamburg Steinways in London that he wanted to import. He said the VAT exemption would make up for the shipping, and the price was still good. So between me and 2 other people in California, we're all crazy? It is not inconceivable that authorized dealers in the US would be required by the manufacturer to charge some certain price for reasons of brand cachet, as that practice can be observed in other industries as well. It could also be the case that with the rapid drop in the Euro and GBP relative to the USD that the previously set MSRPs are now out of sync.

I think people are forgetting the strength of the USD over the GPB and Euro. These price savings probably wouldn't be so much if we were talking about this a few years ago. Nonetheless, it doesn't make it not true.

I would hope US Dealers are taking advantage of this and being quoted in Euros and not dollars, otherwise they would have loss the advantage and the manufactured has gained "bigly".

As I stated in another thread, I apologize for my error in thinking you were purchasing a piano that was already completed and on the floor of the dealer. My "alternative fact" was based on other comments about dealers concert stock or pianos that have been around a while.

Your calculation on costs is interesting, and not too far from correct. As to our sales price, I am prevented - by contract - from quoting prices on the internet but I can tell you that every Steingraeber dealer in the USA would be very competitive to the range you suggest, as long as the Dollar remains where it is against the Euro. In my shop, we purchase all of our German pianos directly from the manufacturer in Euros, and this affects the price greatly. SO, now is an excellent time to purchase a German piano, as you have found out!

All of the above notwithstanding, it does not address the OP's question about MSRP or SMP. As I mentioned before, SMP is purely Mr. Fine's opinion, and not based on data or fact or what the pianos have/do sell for. To top it off, Manufacturers know the calculations he uses from wholesale to establish SMP, and they routinely "play" with the wholesale.

As proof, let's look at a recent transaction that took place throughout another thread on a Yamaha U3. The OP asked if her $11,500 price, tax and delivery included, was a good price. If you back out the tax and dealers cost of delivery, this means the sales price the dealer offered was actually about $10,000. This piano is listed on Pianobuyer with an MSRP of $14,259 and SMP of $13,918. Using the generally accepted (on Pianoworld only) discount of 30%, this seems somewhat reasonable, especially for a dealer in a major market with huge costs per square foot.

However, that is assuming the MSRP of $14,259 is set at an industry standard.

Later in the thread, the OP states:


So, using the same formula to determine the actual sales price (back out the tax and delivery costs) she actually was able to purchase the piano for approx. $7,500, nearly 50% off the MSRP.

I can tell you that, based on the "published" wholesale cost of the piano, this is not possible. Yet, it happened. So, to answer the OP's original question - it indicates nothing because the foundation of the formula is suspect (aka Alternative MSRP)!

Thank you for the clarification, Russell. That makes sense. It seems this is a temporary, limited phenomenon due to the rapid drop in the Euro and some tax discrepancies.

I agree about the prices you find online being suspect. I recall many years ago I was at a dealer looking at a Schimmel C189, which according to SMP was supposedly 40-50k or something like that. The dealer offered to sell it for 25k without me even asking...and had a 35k price tag on the piano.

Did you forgot to subtract the 10-30% discount from SMP in your calculations. It also makes a huge difference if the SMP was 40K or 50K. Finally, as has been stated many times, very low prices are sometimes due to factors a buyer may be unaware of like a dealer's need for cash, the piano has been used in concerts or on the floor for a very long time, the dealer is no longer a dealer for that make, etc.

No, I didn't. 30% off 40k does not get you to 25k, the dealer was moving many units, and is still a Schimmel dealer to this day. In fact a family friend purchased that exact model from the same dealer not long after we went and saw it. The discrepancy is just way too big.

30% off 40K is 28K which IMO is in the same ballpark as the figure you quoted. As far as I know the suggested discounts from SMP are meant as guidelines and not absolute boundaries. Fine is careful to explain and list that there are many other factors that can affect price in addition to SMP and some discount percentage.

So why in Piano Buyer is the MSRP the same in some
brands as the SMP ? It really is confusing to the prospective buyer or reader ?

OK so I missed the part where terminaldegree says that if the manufacturer calculated the MSRP in a more
conservative manner (lower than expected? )then the
MSRP is given the same figure the as the SMP. So the SMP is calculated first then MSRP is given this
number ?
One of the threads I think still on this page in the thread "Ultimate Upright " the poster mentioneds how
much he enjoyed playing the C Bechstein Konzert 8
upright and talks about the very high price of the
piano I thought for him and others I would ask this
question again.

MSRP is Manufacturer’s Suggested Retail Price. This is the
high end number that customers are supposed to see displayed for a new piano. Dealers nearly always discount from MSRP and show you their discounted price when you walk in the store. It’s a pretty hush hush number, which makes price comparisons hard to do by phone or website. Of course. That’s the point. SMP is the maximum price you should pay for that piano. In other sources it’s listed as “street price”. When you walk into the piano store with the Larry Fines prices in hand, you can quickly calculate the dealers mark up for each piano and exactly how much you’re paying for dealer prep and delivery.
Yes- even with further discounts from SMP, European pianos are expensive.

But if a buyer is unaware of SMP and uses the MSRP as a starting point for negotiation, they can have a serious misunderstanding about how good a deal they are getting. That's the whole idea behind SMP.

It seems to me that manufacturers/dealers of pianos with high MSRPs compared to the SMP may be hoping that buyers are thinking they are getting a good deal when they may not be. That is the point of my thread.

I know this thread is more about new pianos and new piano prices, but I remember years ago, when I was actively shopping for a piano, and wasn't quite sure exactly what I wanted (new or used); I called an upscale piano dealer in the Atlanta area, and asked to speak to a salesperson about a pre-owned piano they had listed on their website. When the salesperson got on the phone, I gave him my name and told him I had called about a specific piano they had listed on their website, without a price, of course.

He said I would have to come in and talk with them in person, because if he gave me a price over the phone, he could lose his job. Then, he asked me what my price range was. So, he wanted to know what my price range was, but didn't want to tell me his price range over the phone. That didn't seem too fair to me.

I thought to myself, wow, that makes shopping around for a piano kind of difficult and cumbersome. Getting some kind of ball-park price on the phone would help me decide if I wanted to drive to Atlanta, with the worst traffic in the US (except maybe California? ) to look at a piano that I wouldn't know if I could afford or not.

But stranger things have happened, I suppose.

Rick

Although that's typical for new pianos so each dealer can protect their customer area, I am under the impression that most dealers will tell you prices on used pianos.

Bingo!!!!! Ding Ding Ding!

Unfortunately there’s no Carfax or TrueCar for pianos. Our best resource is Larry Fines PianoBuyer. There’s still quibbling about Piano Profiles and Piano ratings but it’s the only pricing guide out there.