Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Adult Beginners Forum The correct way to learn?

Different people have different skills. For me, I was never able to ski or even swim well. For me, piano is much easier to learn. Different strokes for different folks. Accomplished people in all fields seem to share common characteristics, e.g relaxed body, full and connected use of both the creative mind and physical body, etc. Piano playing does not deserve any pedestal, though as as industry it might try to create one for itself via recitals, pedigree, competitions, etc.. It is simply a very nice hobby and affords a very beautiful journey for those who choose this path to experience music that they may create.

If you want to be really good at anything technical, you need proper instruction from a teacher. That is a given, yet it's amazing how many people think that they're awful at **** because they haven't got the 'aptitude' (or 'talent' or whatever), rather than because they never had competent instruction. How many swimmers ever had proper lessons?

I was lucky enough to have had swimming lessons for three years from age five, and I am very comfortable in the water (including open water), and can swim front crawl, breaststroke, backstroke and butterfly with perfect technique. All the kids in my class (of similar age) likewise. I can swim for miles without too much trouble. But I can't dive without making an almighty splash and displacing gallons of water several feet into the air. Why? - because I never learnt to dive properly. So, I just jump feet first into the water when I want to swim....

Same principles apply to skiing, snowboarding, rock-climbing, white-water kayaking etc, etc.

As for playing piano, if you are happy playing at whatever level you're currently playing, why not? My self-taught friend never envied classical pianists their technique or their ability to play almost anything at sight, because he has no interest in playing classical.

People often come up to me after my recitals to ask me how to get into learning piano. I always tell them the same thing: get an instrument and find a good teacher. I tell them the latter because they're asking about playing classical music. I also tell them that learning to play just requires instruction and regular - preferably daily - practice. If they told me they just wanted to play pop songs by ear (though no-one has yet told me that - my recitals are all classical), my advice to them would have been entirely different. A piano, unlike a violin, will always make a sound at the right pitch (assuming it's been tuned or is a digital) no matter how you play or hit the keys. It's just about the easiest instrument to 'play'. There's no need to put it on a pedestal.

The problem is that it's also just about the hardest to play well, at the higher levels.....

My previous teacher once remarked that her concert/school colleagues said she has it easy, all she has to do is push buttons, unlike her violin counterpart.

Ah, I get it Peak_ski. You like to ski. How did you learn to ski?

Surely there is some in between. There are some great 20th century compositions and composers you know.

Nobody actually plays this way anyway. If they do it is because it has been taught to them this way and evident of bad teaching. Cheap Pop scores may also teach it this way.

If you feel you are in it for the long haul, say, you want to be the best you can be and will be dedicating sufficient time to it over the next 10 years, and be it classical, jazz/blues, pop whatever, you may as well get a teacher early as you know you are going to eventually need one.

Growing up as a kid I just wanted to be like my Dad. My Dad could play good and I wanted to play good. Off to lessons they sent me. Well, it was the basics and I didn't like it and I didn't last long. I still picked up pieces here and there from my Dad though that sounded great. I also got first hand first rate coaching free of charge. Learning piano was just part of growing up. It was far from typical. We generally skipped over theory and reading altogether with intention of getting to it later. I am still working on that part. No harm done though. I am still playing like always.

Get a good start with a good coach and you can also attend piano camps to keep things in check. I agree that finding a teacher for exactly where you are in your journey now and providing precisely what you need to learn and within proximity and all the rest can be challenging. It can also work out great.

There isn't such a thing as one correct technique from a piano teacher. There are effective and efficient techniques that work but they are no more correct or incorrect than others. Different teachers teach different techniques. There are schools of piano with their own idiosyncrasies. On face value, yes, if you able to achieve the sound you are looking for, as long as it is repeatable indefinitely without any physical detriment to your body, then it could be correct even if it seems strange.

This is a pretty pointless analogy because I can see that you don't really have the faintest clue what an "advanced" skier actually is. In a typical resort 95% of people skiing down red and black runs are actually early intermediates with poor technique and very limited experience. It is very easy to get to that level as you have shown, but honestly it's absolutely the tip of the iceberg.

You say very few pianists ever get to the level of classical concert pianist, which I don't doubt for a second. But that's like saying very few skiers ever get to race on the World Cup circuit or ski Alaskan peaks. How many guys can ski a line like this?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wov1DA-Jtjc

That makes sense thanks. It's exactly the same with skiing.

LOL yes! I started off on my own at a local dry-slope in the UK when I was in my early teens in preparation for a school ski holiday, which got me hooked. Then I joined a local club that had a few good ski coaches and was then coached for about 5 years until I left for uni. By that point my basic technique was solid (if a little narrow in scope - from just racing gates mainly) and I was racing at a decent club level. I haven't had a single lesson since then. But I've certainly progressed a long way, just from observation and skiing with some great skiers. I've developed my own style inspired by top level pro free skiers and I ski maybe 30 or 40 days a season out in BC. I often come across adult skiers who take lots of lessons and many of them look a bit stiff and unnatural in their movements where it's obvious they have been forced into a position or technique rather than found it naturally or even thought about why they are skiing the way they are. Sometimes I think they would be better off just observing more and perhaps experimenting a little with their positions. Again some ski teachers are great at encouraging this thought based approach and self-awareness of habits and others just teach rigidly with no explanation. So one thing I can bring from this experience is a sense of self-awareness and the ability to observe, copy and evaluate the results. Also when I get a teacher I will be looking for one who encourages this thought process, rather than playing rigidly by numbers.

You obviously still believe your comparison of skiing to piano playing is valid, and you keep down-grading 'recreational' skiers further and further, just because you consider yourself well above them, with your 35 years' experience. Now you're saying that they are mere "early intermediates with poor technique". Would you like to downgrade them a little more? A piano player of 'early intermediate standard with poor technique' would apply to my self-taught friend, who has been playing piano for over 40 years.

I consider myself a recreational skier, because I can only go skiing when on vacation (living where I live), but I can ski off-piste and I've also climbed several high mountains on skis, carrying backpacks of over 20kg. Can you ski downhill on crevassed 7000m+ mountains carrying 20kg on your back? Have you ever tried? (BTW, I'm also a recreational mountaineer, but I've climbed Everest and Denali among others).

You really should start piano lessons with a good teacher. Seriously, it will open your eyes to the long haul ahead of you........

I'm going to play devil's advocate here and say that is not strictly true. Who taught you to walk for example? If you substitute teacher for coach or mentor, I would tend to agree with you in principle, but then only if someone really wants to be the best of the best.

Also what does "proper instruction" actually mean and how do you evaluate it? Is a poor human teacher better or worse than a very good video teacher or a book? I guess there is no straight answer as there are so many variables involved. I agree that a very good human face-to-face teacher is about as good as it can get, but then there are people on this forum struggling to find a good adult teacher. Does that mean they are doomed to failure or becoming poor musicians? I very much doubt it. I knew a guy at uni who never had a music lesson in his life, yet he could play guitar and piano very well by ear (annoyingly so!). He just had it in him and could work it out for himself naturally, like learning to walk. Unfortunately I'm not in that position (I know from my own guitar playing!) but I can self-learn pretty efficiently with the right material, even if a good teacher would be better.

That's what I meant when I recently used the word "correct" in another thread.

Okay let's recap a little. I only compared skiing to piano playing by way of asking if there was only "one" correct technique as I know there are many techniques in skiing and suspected it would be the case with the piano too, with various experts having differing opinions on the best way to do things. Then you come along and basically inform me that skiing is easy compared to playing the piano on the basis of sliding down a few red runs on your first ski holiday! Honestly, am I supposed to take that seriously? I get it that skiing is easy to pick up the very first rung (that's why it's a popular vacation sport) while maybe the piano isn't, but both skills are potentially lifelong learning paths with no real end point where you can say you have nothing left to learn.

But regardless, even if you personally found skiing much easier to learn than the piano, that doesn't automatically mean everyone will find the same. They require totally different skill sets. I'm definitely going to find the piano more difficult to learn because I've been skiing for a very long time! So we can agree on that I'm sure.

I used the word technical deliberately.

Walking comes naturally to humans, between the ages of 8 months to two years. Evolution saw to that. Many other animals are born with the ability to walk immediately, straight out of the womb. They don't need to be taught.

Playing the piano is totally unnatural and highly technical. You never use such movements doing anything else in everyday life, yet the piano is so 'easy' to play because the sound is ready-made (as I mentioned earlier).

Swimming is technical, if you're talking efficient swimming using a proper stroke. 'Doggy paddle' is not technical, but unless you're a dog (or even if you are) you can't paddle very far without exhausting yourself pretty quickly, because it's so inefficient as a means of forward movement while being able to breathe.

So, if you want an "efficient" piano-playing technique, you need good instruction. BTW, all teachers in the UK have teaching qualifications from ABRSM etc - no-one would hire one who hasn't. In North America, you'll likely have more problems knowing who are the good teachers.

But as I said, if you just want to play pop, you don't need a teacher.......

Okay, now you're making a lot more sense thank you. As I am UK based I will make sure I choose a qualified teacher and hopefully be able to find one I can relate to. I don't see myself playing traditional classical piano. Although I do enjoy a bit of modern classical piano, I will for sure be playing mainly modern pop/rock as that's where my musical interest lies. I can see the value in lessons early on to get a good foundation, but not so much beyond that for my aims.

Yes, you've said it many times. Yet anyone that thinks they are going to do a bang up job with Pop because they learned via the far superior classical approach are in for a rude awakening.

For one thing, the classical player rarely invents anything. It is considered taboo to alter original compositions.

Also, if you ever want to make money performing and entertaining people in live venues, you're going to need Pop unless satisfied with very limited exposure. The good ones are good because they have been trained and are not satisfied with garbage arrangements as you seem to be, just because it is Pop.

There has and will always be good quality music within every genre. Not all of it is good and you may need to dig harder for it with some genres, but not all non-classical can be thrown in the "you don't need a teacher" bucket.

It is partially true, you don't need one (nor do you for classical) but better if you have one.

EDIT: I thought I was a pretty great skier at one time. I took lessons for 1 or 2 years when I started and then joined the race team for a few years. Also, ski patrol for a few years. Through skiing I met a kid who would become my best friend, Tony. Now, this family showed me what skiing is all about and to this day and forever forward, I am intermediate. I'd be afraid to go with them now.

I honestly don't see any comparison between learning to ski and playing the piano. I learned to ski in an afternoon as a kid. (I had an instructor for that too) Piano took me a couple of years as a kid to be able to play basic songs. But if you really want to keep the comparison alive - then those folks you say are intermediate with poor form skiing down black runs are comparable to where you get with self learning. They think they are pretty good. They call themselves advanced because they don't know any better. But YOU know better.

So here are a bunch of people assuring you that lessons are the way to go. We can't all be deluded and unable to see the value in keeping our hard earned money to buy scores rather than lessons. Some measure of trust is required.

I have a friend with a nine year old daughter. The other day we were talking about my piano lessons when her daughter piped up and said "I can play Fur Elise!" As you may know, Fur Elise is an intermediate piece usually studied after 7 or so years of piano study. So I was already kind of doubting that she could play it. But then she whipped out her iPhone and showed me an app with a keyboard on it. The notes would light up as she went to play them. Part way through she had to interrupt her play to scroll the phone to the other half of the keyboard to hit a few notes.

So here is a question: Can that girl play Fur Elise? If you ask her - yes she can. Her one finger iPhone tapping sounds great to her. And I don't think that should be laughed at because she is enjoying one of the great piano classics. But we know better. We know that with seven years of piano study on a real piano she could make that Fur Elise really outstanding.

Now this is intentionally a very exaggerated example. But it shows that playing notes and playing music are two entirely different things. I feel that self teaching will get you notes and timings. That's easy, that's math. But the artistry and intricacy is harder. And self taught people may be able to get there, but a teacher will get you there faster. Why tap your iPhone when you could be playing the real thing?

Because it's true. BTW, why are you so enraged when I say that? I'm not the only one who's said that in PW.

And I wasn't replying to you, but to someone who is - or was - intent on self-learning.

There are quite a number of well-known pop singers who are proud of the fact that they never had piano lessons (and can't read music), but play the piano or keyboard as part of their pop act. I don't think you need me to tell you who they are.


Like Elton John, Neil Sedaka, Lady Gaga et al?


You're making a silly assumption there. Are you saying that my arrangements of pop are garbage (actually, I'd never 'made' arrangements of pop - I just improvise stuff from lead sheets when I do play it, which is rarely)? Have you heard me play pop - or indeed, anything?

Or are you saying that most existing published piano arrangements of pop are garbage? I might just agree with you there. What I often see in books are pop arrangements trying to sound like classical.......

It trivializes Pop. You are the only one I recall saying it, or at least many times.


But you said if you just want to play Pop you don't need a teacher. I believe these musician's were all highly trained classically. They've gone on to Pop, but it is good Pop. They are also top of the heap. Intermediates (the vast majority) are less likely to make the transition so easily. But, will agree they are in a much better position to do so.


You always come back to ... "if you just want to play simple LH chords RH melody" ...

Who wants to play that? There is more to Pop then this. You know that but ignore it.

I've never heard you play as you have never offered. There is plenty of opportunity and it will always be there if you ever want to.

Yes, that too. I was always told that most are. I thought maybe things had changed and improved but other participants here have confirmed that they haven't really. It is possible to find good transcriptions. But Pop and just about everything non-classical is not about transcriptions. It's not just adlib all the time either.

Why does it trivialize pop?

Pop musicians are quite willing to acknowledge - or even boast - that they are entirely self-taught, as I've already said. Is it simply your own perception that pop should be "formally taught" to have status?

What's wrong with learning to play by ear? Folk musicians play by ear and folk tunes have been handed down through centuries thus.


I don't get you.

You're contemptuous of people who go to pop via the classical route, and now you're saying they're top of the heap?

What in your esteemed opinion is a good transcription of pop?

Actually, why don't you start a new thread and canvass people's opinion on learning pop on the piano, instead of repeatedly taking offence at what I write in reply to someone else? I promise: I won't post anything in your thread, no matter what you write, so that my (apparently) all-pervasive malign opinions can't influence anyone.....