I am a novice piano player and I am buying a studio/upright piano for my young daughter. The pianos I am focusing on now are: Schimmel, Charles Walter, Yamaha U1, and Petrof. Could more experienced players please comment on the sound and tone differences of these pianos? Are any of these more "true" to what most concert pianist desire in sound, tone, feel, etc...? I would like my daughter to get use to the right things (if that exists).... without breaking the bank.

thanks for the input!

Dear AC,

All of these pianos are fine pianos. Knowing that you're working in an "even playing field," ask yourself: how does this sound to ME. How does it play? Is the touch responsive? Play every key. Play chords. Play the same piece on each piano. This is YOUR choice and there isn't a dog in the group, so have fun!

penny

Penny is right. All these are considered good pianos. Each has its own distinctive sound. Some of the adjectives often used to describe their tone characteristics are:

Schimmel - crisp and clear.
Charles Walter - deep and colorful.
Yamaha - bright and percussive.
Petrof - warm and sweet.

Since different people have different tastes, you need to play all these pianos to see which one pleases YOU and your daughter the most. In addition, you may want to consider the reputation of and service provided by the dealer in your decision.

Most concert pianists play grands. And it is grossly unfair to compare the tone and touch of these uprights against some of the finest grands these performers own and play. Also, I don't think there is a specific 'sound' that all performers are seeking. Even though a large percentage of performing artists play Steinways. Not all Steinways sound the same. So, go with what you think is best, not what others think are best for you. You will be pleased to own any one of these fine pianos.

Eric

[ September 15, 2001: Message edited by: EricL ]

Thanks for the input.
What words would you used to describe the
sound produced by the grands desired by the concert pianists? What words describe how most Steinway Grands sound?

thanks again,
Allen

I just learned that a piano player I really like (George Winston) plays a 9 foot Steinway concert grand. How would you describe the sound of one of these pianos?
thanks,
Allen

as eric said, steinways each have their own personality. they are not at all uniform.

also, it is important to underscore that you cannot compare grands with uprights. if indeed you really want your daughter to have the advantage of learning on the type of instrument a concert artist uses, you will have to get her a grand. but since finances are tight, it might be best to get her one of the excellent uprights you've chosen (my personal favorite of the bunch is the petrof) for now, and trade up to a grand in a few years after she has demonstrated commitment to the instrument.

in any event, what matters for her schooling is not the tone, as that is a matter of personal taste, but the action, as that will determine what she can and can't do on the instrument. grand actions and upright actions are completely different animals.

Good quality grands should have the following tonal characteristics:

Bass - rich and deep.
Treble - clear with a singing quality and good sustain.

Both bass and treble should have good dynamics too.

Steinway's tone is rich in harmonics or overtones. Quite brillant when compared to most European grands.

Regardless of what tone a piano possesses, it should be even across the register. The same applies to the action, although some pianos, notably Steinways, have a graded action in which the touch weight decreases slightly and gradually as one moves up the register. No matter what, the action should be responsive.

Next time when you visit the dealers, ask to play their most expensive and the best prepped pianos on their showroom floors. This will give you an idea of what to look for in your piano. (Just remember you can not expect an upright to play and sound like an expensive grand!)

Eric

** We might have bent, but we will never fall. Long live the United States of America! **

[ September 17, 2001: Message edited by: EricL ]

With your input in mind, I think I like the
tone of the Schimmel best followed by the Yamaha. I haven't heard the Petrof yet, but I am concerned about their inconsistency over the years (as mentioned in Larry Fine's book)... and also with our local Petrof
dealer being relatively new to the area (3 years ... compared to 40+ for the other dealers we have talked to). I'm not sure we can buy a Schimmel within our price range as their list is higher than the rest. Any comments or thoughts?

Thanks for all the great input!

Not to muddy the waters, but if you think you might like the European tone, you ought to go ahead and give the Petrofs a try. The word is that their quality has improved dramatically over the past few years--I have no personal experience with the older Petrofs, but the new grands I've played are very nice indeed and a very good value. I've also talked to Petrof owners who are extremely happy with their purchase.

i second wg's comment. if you look at the most recent (4th edition) of the piano book, larry fine has only good things to say about petrofs.

just to confirm this, while i was recently piano shopping in new york i had a telephone conversation with larry fine, and he personally told me there is absolutely nothing wrong with the petrof verticals (i was looking at the 131). those who criticize the petrofs, he said, are usually dealers who don't carry them and have something to lose by your buying one. he also said that the distributor does honor warranty issues.

a properly prepared petrof 131 is the absolutely nicest upright i have played, with a beautiful, warm, singing tone. i haven't played all the european makes out there, but i have played many, including the schimmel.

but this is very much a matter of personal taste among the instruments you are considering. the schimmel has a colder tone, in my view, but a lot of clarity, and a very responsive action. the yamaha is brassier, brighter, better for jazz.

We plan to go see the Petrofs later this week. From Larry Fine's book, it seems that Petrof's good track record is only a few years old (it seems they had a so-so period for the ~20 years prior). How can we know how the quality will sustain itself over a long period of time with such a short track record? Is the nature of these pianos such that a quality assessment now is valid over many years?

Could you give me an idea of the price for the Petrof 131 in mahogany?

Is the warm vs cool difference in the Petrof and Schimmel very pronounced? I doubt if I will be able to listen to them in the same shop.

If I wind up choosing the Petrof, would other dealers service it if the current retailer doesn't last?

thanks for tolerating all the questions!
Allen

You have done two things that I believe are very wise. The first was to get and read Larry Fine's book, and the second was to post questions on this and perhaps other forums. A third thing you may want to do that will enhance you piano shopping experience is to have an open mind. Try not to have pre-conceived notions about a piano or its manufacturer when you are shopping around. If you do, sometimes your mind may play tricks on you. You can take into considerations things such as dealer/manufacturer reputation, warranty issues, service plans, etc., later AFTER you have a chance to play and evaluate ALL pianos that your local (and perhaps not so local) dealers carry.

As for the Petrof 131 in mahogany, the list price is around U.S.$10K. Depending on where you are and the supply/demand of the particular piano in your area, expect a 20-30% or more 'discount' off this list price. Because the economy is in a downturn, you may be able to get a very good deal on any piano on your list.

Do bring along your daughter when you shop. If she likes the piano, chances are she will be drawn to it and therefore a lot more enthusiastic in spending time practicing the piano. Just one caveat, children (and many adults) often are more interested in the looks rather than the tone and touch of a piano. If neither you nor your daughter know much about pianos, it probably is a good idea to bring someone who do with you.

Although most forum contributors have your interest in mind when giving advice, YOU are the one who will be spending YOUR hard-earned money on a piano that will become a permanent fixture in YOUR house. Because you and your family will have to live with it and play it on a daily basis, do what you think is best for you.

Eric

** We might have bent, but we will never fall. Long live the United States of America! **

The reason Petrof pianos improvement has been recent is mostly due to the low level of craftsmanship in Communist countries. As soon as the Petrof family regained control of their factory, a program of improvement began.

Will the pianos maintain their value over a long time period? I belive they will. Because the single most important factor in a piano holding together is the materials--especially woods. Petrof pianos use dense, hard woods like Beech and Maple.

Finally, if you look at Larry Fine's ratings, you'll see that Petrof is grouped with pianos which, for the most part, are in a much higher price range. That, also speaks very well of Petrof's quality.

Full disclosure, I work for a Petrof dealer. However, we also carry many other brands. I have fewer warranty issues with other Petrof pianos than any other brand. Since Petrof charges the same for most finishes, you should be able to get a mahogany Petrof for the same price as an Ebony.

Could someone tell me the retail prices
on these Schimmel models:
122KE mahogany
120J mahogany
130T mahogany

What kind of discounts might I see on these models?

thanks,
Allen

AllenC,

I think Schimmels have overinflated list prices. The 130T, in simple ebony, lists for 15.5k and can be found between 10 and 11k. Still, this is probably 2-4k higher than you will find for the Petrof. The 122 is about 8-9k. Non-ebony finishes are at least 1k more, I believe.

Since I haven't posted in a while (keep losing track of my PW), I'd like to add to the recent Grotrian thread by noting that their 6'3' also seems to be more discounted than many may think. At Piano Mill in Boston the price right on the fallboard is 35k, while the 7'3'(228?) is shown at 39k. And this is from an authorized dealer.

I hope you are developing your ear for which you would like. All mentioned, as others have said, are fine instruments. The other thing I'd add is that the Petrof's, in both grand and upright, have tended to be pretty raw and bright sounding with their new Renner hammers. IMO, they would tend to need more voicing before a fair comparison to Schimmel can be made. We ended up with a Schimmel after doing a back to back, P131, comparison with stores that were only footsteps apart. It seemed to be a marginally better built piano in many respects. I'd also say the 130T bass is every bit as powerful as the Petrof, granting that the Petrof sounds a bit darker.

YMMV,
Chris W

Chris,
Thanks for the input. Which Schimmel did
you finally choose? We haven't heard the
130T yet, so we don't know how different it
is from the 120/122.

What did you mean by "It seemed to be a
marginally better built piano in many
respects"?

We are leaning toward the Schimmel if we can
get a good price. thanks.
Allen