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#278580 - 12/27/06 07:58 AM Piattino caster cups
pianoloverus Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/29/01
Posts: 19096
Loc: New York City
Has anyone here tried these caster cups? Any opinions on these vs Jansen caster cups?

http://www.pianofortesupply.com/piattino1.html

Before I knew about these cups, I saw a picture of a Boesendorfer on PW that may have used these cups and I thought the cups looked particularly beautiful with the black piano and brass casters.
Unfortunately, I do not remember on what thread I saw this photo of the Bosie. Does anyone remember which photo this might be or who the owner was?

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#278581 - 12/27/06 10:19 AM Re: Piattino caster cups
Monica K. Offline

Platinum Supporter until Dec 31 2012


Registered: 08/10/05
Posts: 17698
Loc: Lexington, Kentucky
Those sure are attractive, but they look pretty tall to me. I'd be worried about them raising the piano so much off the ground that the pedals wouldn't be at a comfortable height.
_________________________
Mason & Hamlin A -- 91997
My YouTube channel: http://www.youtube.com/pianomonica

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#278582 - 12/27/06 10:32 AM Re: Piattino caster cups
pianoloverus Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/29/01
Posts: 19096
Loc: New York City
 Quote:
Originally posted by Monica Kern:
Those sure are attractive, but they look pretty tall to me. I'd be worried about them raising the piano so much off the ground that the pedals wouldn't be at a comfortable height. [/b]
I think they are less tall than the Jansen cups (or at least only raise the piano three eighths of an inch off the floor).

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#278583 - 05/06/07 01:26 AM Re: Piattino caster cups
McLaughlin Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/24/07
Posts: 271
Loc: Ohio
According to the site, only 3/8".

Has anyone used these yet?
_________________________
Brian Lucey - M&H BB 1930
the day job: Magic Garden Mastering
"the economy is a wholly owned subsidiary of the ecology" - unknown

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#278584 - 05/06/07 02:33 AM Re: Piattino caster cups
schwammerl Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/16/06
Posts: 2011
Loc: Belgium
If you look at their website (http://www.piattino.de/) - unfortunately only in German - these caster cups must be quite special. The company's website is entirely dedicated to that single product (Piattino Caster cups in a few sizes and finishes), design goal, research...all included.

At the same time, at least in Europe, they are not cheap; prices are from € 93,- to 138,- ($ 124,- to 184,-)/set of 3 and from € 124,- to 160,- ($165 to 213,-)/set of 4, depending in diameter and finish.

schwammerl.

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#278585 - 05/06/07 06:28 AM Re: Piattino caster cups
Starting Over Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/07/06
Posts: 1290
Loc: Toronto
FWIW, I bought the Jansen cups In ebony but used them only for a while. They raised the piano about the same amount as these I think (about 3/8" or so). Doesn't sound like much but I couldn't get used to it. The pedals were too high no matter how you sliced it. You might want to put some books or boards under your casters to raise the piano 3/8" as a test to see if you can adjust to the extra height before spending this much money.
_________________________
Buy some good stock and hold it till it goes up, then sell it. If it don't go up, don't buy it.
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#278586 - 05/07/07 06:19 AM Re: Piattino caster cups
Rich Galassini Offline
8000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/28/01
Posts: 8974
Loc: Philadelphia/South Jersey
 Quote:
Before I knew about these cups, I saw a picture of a Boesendorfer on PW that may have used these cups and I thought the cups looked particularly beautiful with the black piano and brass casters.
Bosendorfer has their own brass caster cups available. They are not the same as any Piattino cup that I've seen. Of course, this doesn't mean that perhaps Piattino is their supplier.
_________________________
Rich Galassini
Cunningham Piano Co.
Phila, Pa.
Dir. Line (215) 991-0834
rich@cunninghampiano.com
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#278587 - 05/07/07 10:37 AM Re: Piattino caster cups
steveb40 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 04/02/06
Posts: 113
Loc: New York City
I'm curious as to how much these would actually reduce vibrations through the floor to an apartment below. Do they really work?
_________________________
-steve
www.steveblanco.com

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#278588 - 05/07/07 10:43 PM Re: Piattino caster cups
Supply Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/11/06
Posts: 3919
Loc: Vancouver Island, BC, Canada
Hi, I just stumbled onto this thread. As the North American distributor of Piattino and a friend of the developer, I hope I can answer any questions out there.

There is no connection between Piattino and other brass caster cups on the market - they usually just have a thin rubber pad in the underside.

Piattino Acoustic Caster Cups are unique in a number of ways. They were designed to tackle the problem of sound transmission (conduction) from the instrument into the floor and from there into other parts of the building, especially the rooms below. In Europe, this is a common issue, where very many people living in appartments want to enjoy their piano as much as possible without disturbing their neighbors.

Piattino Caster Cups incorporate about 1.5" of acoustical insulation, yet only raise the piano 3/8" off the floor. This is important for pedal height, keyboard height, and finally, looks. I think most of the wooden or plastic caster cups for grands will jack the instrument up a lot higher.

Piattinos are effective for verticals and for grands. They concept is thought through very cleverly, and they have a few other neat features as well.
_________________________
Jurgen Goering
Piano Forte Supply
www.pianofortesupply.com

Piattino Caster Cups distributor

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#278589 - 05/08/07 01:36 AM Re: Piattino caster cups
McLaughlin Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/24/07
Posts: 271
Loc: Ohio
Jurgen what was the testing here, because I'm skeptical about the decoupling claims. What material can hold 400 lbs and do much else under that kind of pressure?

Plus, the sound of a piano coming from the soundboard into the floor below is always going to be more powerful than any vibration down the legs.

With a loudspeaker, where we have a lot of low frequency power in a small surface area, spikes do reduce the vibration from coupling in to the floor, but even a piano floating in the air is going to be loud to the neighbors below. A loudspeaker floating in air throws it's sound across a room, not straight down.

I do like the look, however!
_________________________
Brian Lucey - M&H BB 1930
the day job: Magic Garden Mastering
"the economy is a wholly owned subsidiary of the ecology" - unknown

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#278590 - 05/08/07 01:48 AM Re: Piattino caster cups
Supply Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/11/06
Posts: 3919
Loc: Vancouver Island, BC, Canada
The material is a special type of PUR. If you want to hear how much sound is moving around your piano case, looking for a bridge to be transmitted into the floor below, simply press your ear against a piano leg while someone plays. While no claims are made that Piattino completely isolates one room from the space below, it is the best product on the market.

Incidently, most of my calls for Piattino come from New York City, where serious players have a Steinway M, L or A in their appartment. At a loss for where to turn, they call Steinway, who refer them to me. I feel fairly comfortable with that kind of a recommendation.
_________________________
Jurgen Goering
Piano Forte Supply
www.pianofortesupply.com

Piattino Caster Cups distributor

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#278591 - 05/08/07 10:13 AM Re: Piattino caster cups
steveb40 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 04/02/06
Posts: 113
Loc: New York City
I'm one of those NYC players with an M and I'm considering purchasing these things. I've considerably reduced the volume of my piano and don't have any problems with the neighbors, but if this will help a bit more I'd feel better psychologically.

I have to think about this one...Thanks for the info.
_________________________
-steve
www.steveblanco.com

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#278592 - 05/08/07 03:10 PM Re: Piattino caster cups
Grandpianoman Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/12/05
Posts: 2244
Loc: Portland, Oregon
Hi Jurgen, I have a question....since these Piattino casters de-couple the piano from the floor, is there any disadvantage in doing that as far as having a more full, robust tone from the piano? I ask this because I like the look of the casters, but I don't need the de-coupling effect as I have a home, and I was concerned that they might somehow "dull" the full effect of the piano. In my situation, the belly of the piano has the Ampico player mechanism, plus a vinyl cover that covers everything, such as you see in this picture, so the sound is already muted to some degree:



Thanks!

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#278593 - 05/08/07 04:09 PM Re: Piattino caster cups
McLaughlin Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/24/07
Posts: 271
Loc: Ohio
 Quote:
Originally posted by Supply:
Incidently, most of my calls for Piattino come from New York City, where serious players have a Steinway M, L or A in their appartment. At a loss for where to turn, they call Steinway, who refer them to me. I feel fairly comfortable with that kind of a recommendation. [/b]
Sounds promising. I'd like to try it myself to be sure. Hopefully someone who has done a careful A/B will post.
_________________________
Brian Lucey - M&H BB 1930
the day job: Magic Garden Mastering
"the economy is a wholly owned subsidiary of the ecology" - unknown

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#278594 - 05/09/07 02:36 AM Re: Piattino caster cups
Supply Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/11/06
Posts: 3919
Loc: Vancouver Island, BC, Canada
Grandpianoman, Piattino doesn't really have an affect on the tone of the piano in the room for home use. The sound radiating from the soundboard is not affected. De-coupling from the floor can, technicaly speaking, make a difference in the piano sound, but I think that could be noticeable only in extreme situations, such as in a concert situation, where the hardwood stage can actually contribute to tone projection. That is one of the reasons that so many pianists prefer proper brass casters under their concert instruments over the trucks or spider dollies, which are essentially leaf springs on large rubber wheels. Apart from the unflattering visuals and de-coupling of these contraptions, there is also the spongy, springy feel of the instrument, which contrasts sharply to the solid grounding that heavy brass caster provide.
see: http://www.pianofortesupply.com/NEW%20PARTS.html
_________________________
Jurgen Goering
Piano Forte Supply
www.pianofortesupply.com

Piattino Caster Cups distributor

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#278595 - 05/09/07 12:12 PM Re: Piattino caster cups
M&HAAdriver Offline
Silver Expires April 2010

Silver member until April 2010

Registered: 01/21/05
Posts: 272
Loc: Centennial, Colorado
Brian,
Working as I do in the airline maintenance business, I can tell you that a relatively thin layer of a soft rubber like PUR can be very effective with massive objects. In our case, rubber isolation of jet engine vibrations is important - for that matter, rubber isolators are used in most automobile engine installations.

Regarding changing the piano's sound, the leg contact with the floor would be a part of the equation, as would, for instance, carpeting.
_________________________
** Bob ** M&H AA 92809 **

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#278596 - 05/10/07 01:00 AM Re: Piattino caster cups
McLaughlin Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/24/07
Posts: 271
Loc: Ohio
 Quote:
Originally posted by M&HAAdriver:
Brian,
Working as I do in the airline maintenance business, I can tell you that a relatively thin layer of a soft rubber like PUR can be very effective with massive objects. In our case, rubber isolation of jet engine vibrations is important - for that matter, rubber isolators are used in most automobile engine installations.

Regarding changing the piano's sound, the leg contact with the floor would be a part of the equation, as would, for instance, carpeting. [/b]
Yes ... makes sense. Hi tech rubber.
_________________________
Brian Lucey - M&H BB 1930
the day job: Magic Garden Mastering
"the economy is a wholly owned subsidiary of the ecology" - unknown

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#278597 - 05/11/07 05:57 PM Re: Piattino caster cups
skyblanche Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/29/03
Posts: 370
Loc: Canada
This is a very interesting post.

I was recently given antique glass castor cups from Germany for my Steinway B...that are supposed to enhance the sound.

Presumably, IMO to insulate the piano from the energy loss to the floor. Is the professional sound word...fade or something like that.?

Whether they enhance or detract...those 100 year old hexagonal solid glass cups sure look nice under the piano,. and they don't interfere height wise with the pedals.

They knew what they were doing when they built those.

Skyblanche

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#278598 - 05/11/07 06:00 PM Re: Piattino caster cups
lilylady Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/17/05
Posts: 4974
Loc: boston north
I would love to see a closeup of these skyblanche

RE: I was recently given antique glass castor cups from Germany for my Steinway B...that are supposed to enhance the sound.

What is your perspective on how they enhance the tone? Do you have any recordings with and without? I think that would be interesting to note, if you have the time and inclination to do the experiment.

LL
_________________________
"Music gives a soul to the universe, wings to the mind, flight to the imagination, and life to everything."

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#278599 - 05/11/07 06:05 PM Re: Piattino caster cups
skyblanche Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/29/03
Posts: 370
Loc: Canada
Hi Lilylady,

I have never been successful at loading a photo AND posting a message at the same time. One or the other programs dumps on me.

So here it is...Part II

The Cups!\

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v386/skyblanche01/Steinway1004.jpg

skyblanche

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#278600 - 05/11/07 06:08 PM Re: Piattino caster cups
skyblanche Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/29/03
Posts: 370
Loc: Canada
Little diamonds under the piano!!!

If only.

I am not of German extraction, so I don't know how valuable or collectable these castors are. But the person who gave them to me is VERY connected to the antique business in Berlin and elsewhere in Germany...and wanted to give me a very special present. So I adore them and value them highly.

skyblanche

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#278601 - 05/11/07 06:09 PM Re: Piattino caster cups
skyblanche Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/29/03
Posts: 370
Loc: Canada
I can't believe that three glass cups can support 900 plus pounds without breaking.

skyblanche

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#278602 - 05/11/07 06:19 PM Re: Piattino caster cups
skyblanche Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/29/03
Posts: 370
Loc: Canada
Lilylady,

I am at that point in life where everything is 30 years old and needs replacing...not withstanding all the technological advances. I'm not sure anything I would record for you would advance the theory...if you know what I mean.

The gift was incredibly generous, as I am told these castors are difficult to get even in Europe and a bit pricey.

I'm sorry my photo was at such a distance,..but it does clearly show that they don't detract from the piano...which is good.

Nobody wants to look at the castors underneath a Steinway.,...or what have you.

The pianos sit on top of a solid maple floor on top of a fir subfloor...so it is already quite a firm base for the sound.

Skyblanche

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#278603 - 05/11/07 06:22 PM Re: Piattino caster cups
skyblanche Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/29/03
Posts: 370
Loc: Canada
Hi Lilylady, ..again. (sorry)

I have downloaded (hopefully)the physical surroundings for the pianos in my home in hopes that you can extapolate what effect the castors might or might not have in this environment.

Thanks for the reply. I really am interested in this thread.

Skyblanche

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v386/skyblanche01/P6022169-1.jpg[/IMG]

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#278604 - 05/11/07 06:43 PM Re: Piattino caster cups
lilylady Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/17/05
Posts: 4974
Loc: boston north
Skyblanche,

I am an antique's person. Someone who appreciates the past quality items. Also its quirks, one of a kinds; and the delving into past histories. Which is why I am interested in the glass castors.

Sorry for our hyjacking the thread, but I guess it does kinda continues the interest in the Piatinno's.

I really do wonder if they were made in glass for a musical reason, or for prettiness.

I wonder who else out there has even seen something like this?

Are they special? In my mind...YOU BET! I think you ave a prize there, Skyblanche!

LL
_________________________
"Music gives a soul to the universe, wings to the mind, flight to the imagination, and life to everything."

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#278605 - 05/11/07 11:59 PM Re: Piattino caster cups
M&HAAdriver Offline
Silver Expires April 2010

Silver member until April 2010

Registered: 01/21/05
Posts: 272
Loc: Centennial, Colorado
In thinking further on this thread, the following occurs to me:

First, compared to the sound projected from the soundboard (which we all know can rattle everything that's loose in the room!) the sound transmission through the castors has got to be small within the piano room[/b]. But the high-force contact with the floor could theoretically transmit certain sounds quite a distance depending on the type of construction of the building.

Neither Larry Fine's writings nor any advertisements I've seen appear make any claims of goodness by that avenue. The main structure of the piano seems to be all about holding things together, not sound, EXCEPT rim construction that sometimes claims to help project sound back to the soundboard, e.g. M&H, or become an extension of the soundboard (Fine's observation of Bosendorfers).

Too, when carpeting is considered, I've not read any concerns about the castors being insulated from the hard floor so much as the possible dampening of sound being projected downward from the soundboad to a soft/absorbant versus hard/reflective surface.

While there seemed to be some concern above that dampening the piano's tone transmission into the floor through the legs could be somehow detrimental, it could in fact be quite beneficial. Unless the structure of the building is expertly designed to evenly transmit all frequencies (highly unlikely!) the effect might be undesireable. It might, for instance, unpleasantly transmit bass tones in the muffled sort of way of a neighbor's stereo blaring rock music - and all you hear is the thumping bass. Thus Piattino isolators could be a real plus.
_________________________
** Bob ** M&H AA 92809 **

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#278606 - 05/12/07 12:16 AM Re: Piattino caster cups
steveb40 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 04/02/06
Posts: 113
Loc: New York City
I'm giving them a try. For those of us NYC dwellers anything can help. I'll report back after going downstairs to my neighbors' place and checking on the difference in sound reduction with the Piattinos.

I've already stuffed sound absorbing insulation in between the braces underneath the soundboard (a tip I learned from a concert pianist here in NY) and it has greatly reduced the volume without taking away from what I hear too much. Keep in mind that my goal is to be able to practice 5 - 6 hours or more each day without feeling guilty about the neighbors and I fully accept the fact that there will be a compromise.
_________________________
-steve
www.steveblanco.com

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#278607 - 05/12/07 12:33 AM Re: Piattino caster cups
MnMsMom9902 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/09/06
Posts: 41
Loc: Silicon Valley
A few months back, I had actually purchased 4 Piattino caster cups from Jurgen (such a nice guy, by the way!) of Piano Forte. These caster cups are very sturdy and nice looking too.

One of the reason that I got these caster was because our house has hardwood floor that is, unfortunately, uneven in spots. The rubber inside the caster cup provided enough give to even out our piano so that we no longer experience that slight wobbleness with our piano.

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#278608 - 05/12/07 02:23 PM Re: Piattino caster cups
Supply Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/11/06
Posts: 3919
Loc: Vancouver Island, BC, Canada
Thanks for the feedback, MnMsMom.

Yes, one more advantage of Piattinos is to help level vertical pianos on uneven floors. Sometimes, on less than perfect floors, one caster will be slightly up in th eair, or at least will carry less of a bearing load. As a result, there can be a buzzing or rattling noise, or in an extreme case, the instument can actually wobble. Piattinos have just enough give to even out these differences.

Of course, this is almost never a problem with grands, standing on three legs. I say "almost" because there are grands with double legs, i.e. with six casters. I have one at home (Rönisch) and a few more in my clientele (Bechsteins).
_________________________
Jurgen Goering
Piano Forte Supply
www.pianofortesupply.com

Piattino Caster Cups distributor

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#1323212 - 12/11/09 09:13 AM Re: Piattino caster cups [Re: Supply]
andrew f Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/19/09
Posts: 120
Loc: Amsterdam
Hi all, I know this is an old thread, but I thought I'd chime in as someone who has had Piattinos under his Schimmel concert series upright (K122) for the past two years.

Sorry to say, but don't expect much in the way of reducing sound to your downstairs neighbors.

I may have a nut-case downstairs, and no attention may have been paid to noise reduction between apartments during construction, but I'm very near having to get rid of my beloved Schimmel because I can't take the situation any longer. Piattinos, thick carpet under the piano, having the piano voiced down, not playing during the hours that the neighbor requested as quiet time (noon to 3pm and 6 to 8pm, I kid you not!) ; all to no avail. As soon as I start playing he puts his stereo on so loud that my windows shake. Nice guy - I guess his downstairs and adjacent neighbors don't mind him acting out.

As for the Piattinos: they look really classy, just don't expect them to solve noise control problems. (Did I just call it noise?

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