What can I expect to pay for the 6'3" Estonia (in satin ebony)? My dealer quoted $29,700 over the phone. But I found a bluebookofpianos quote of $25,000. I hope both of these are higher than what one actually must pay.

I will be trading in a ten-year-old Baldwin Model 6000 "Concert Vertical". It is in excellent condition. How much is it worth in trade?

Many of these pianos have sold in the low 20s for the past few years. The phone quote you got sounds like the dealer's "sticker" price which may be subject to a significant discount if you walk in the door and act like a prudent buyer. I know that street prices have risen in the last year or two but you should still be able to buy one of these for less than 25K.

The dealer will give you wholesale on the Baldwin which may be less than what you could sell it for if you are patient.

The retail price of an Estonia 190 is presently $33,000.00. This has gone up from as low as $27,000.00 only a year ago. There have been improvements in the piano over this time and most dealers are in the position of waiting for inventory.

In todays marketplace, I think an $8,000.00 discount (over 25%) is pretty fair. I hope that helps.

Full disclosure = I seel Estonia pianos.

Do you "seel" it with a kiss, or do you use duct tape?

(Sorry, Rich!)

Rich made a good point here...and by the way,
I SEEL Estonias too!

Dont




Anything!





George

Depends on how aggressive you are. I think you should still be able to get an Estonia for less than the comparatively sized Charles Walter. If you're lucky you might be able to get it for around 20, but really anything below 25 means you're doing a good job.

Rich is right about the list price of $ 33,000,00 for a 6'3 Estonia.

This also happens to be exact same price as in
L. Fine's 2005 most recent Annual Supplement.

In Canada, the price is even 7% higher, this due to added import duties.

So, *don't*[/b] you call me.........

norbert

What about the 168? What is the fair price? What range considered pretty good as of now?

I meant from the purchaser's point of view by the way.

A 168 would be about 4-5K less than a 190 with the same finish.

so the target price should be USD15000-20000 for a 168. thanks!

Im wondering what improvements have been made in the last year? i know that the newest models have the words "laurel estonia" inside. the 190 im looking at doesnt. but it sounds fantastic!

No, "Laul Estonia." I have a 2004 model, doesn't have it on the plate, it seems the name was something added for 2005.

Gwyn,

Friendly suggestion: forget the "features," forget the name, go with the sound.

I cannot imagine Estonia (or most any piano maker, actually) coming up with any new "feature" completely unrelated to sound and yet is so significant that one just has to have it. (Well, except the slow-close fallboard feature, that would be nice.)

But if you're thinking of using the lack of "new features" to beat the dealer on price for buying an "older model," well, that's your call.

pno,
Tunersmith wrote:
"Depends on how aggressive you are. I think you should still be able to get an Estonia for less than the comparatively sized Charles Walter If you're lucky you might be able to get it for around 20, but really anything below 25 means you're doing a good job".

Now, I agree that if anyone can get nowadays a 190 for 25k he is probably being very aggressive.
Whether he is doing a good job or not it can be debated, as it could very well be that he'll squeeze the dealer enough at this price so he wouldn't get the prepared service that he would have had he paid a higher, and closer to the price that the average buyer pays. So he may feel great for the short term, but in the end, he'll probably have to pay for it in another way.
Now, after this remark, tunersmith feels for some reason that one can get the instrument for20% less then the "doing pretty good job" price or for almost 40% off list price.
This is simply unrealistic nowadays, and FAR, FAR off Larry Fine recommendation for street prices (15%-25% off his supplement list prices), when usually, the larger discounts as are reserved for the concert grands and the smaller discounts to the 5'6.
I don't exclude the possibility that tunnersmith had encountered some remarkable opportunity to get an Estonia in a "special situation", that was priced somewhat under a Charles Walter. It could also be that he only assumed that he could have negotiate a price lower then that of the Walter based on shopping he did a year ago, seeing instruments that dealers had to pay 20% less for then what they pay today, or even that he encountered one of these older, lower priced instruments…but these days, Estonias generally are being sold for similar, and many times higher prices then the Walters.
Next, sir Lurksalot wrote:
A 168 would be about 4-5K less than a 190 with the same finish.

Which is actually quite accurate...however, you concluded from this that "the target price should be USD15000-20000 for a 168. thanks!"

I guess the exclamation mark in the end of your words shows of your hope and enthusiasm, but I'm sorry to disappoint you. You won't find ANY new 168 for anywhere near 15K even if you'll be the most aggressive shopper, that is of course, unless you'll be carrying a gun to the dealership.
At 25K for a 190, one would be paying less then the average paid for these pianos, and as I said before, will have the risk of getting the short hand of the stick when we talk about prep and service.
At 4k-5k under this price, the same would be true regarding the 168.
I think that the average 168 will be sold these days for higher then 21K and anything under is quite remarkable.

Ori must be from a different region of the nation than I am. Prices vary a lot from state to state and dealer to dealer, and not just because dealers are trying to wring higher margins out. Some just have higher rent, property taxes, whatever. But in many regions, you should easily be able to negotiate an Estonia 190 for under 25k. And given how close I came to buying an Estonia 190 within the last twelve months, I know that in my case, 25k was hardly aggressive. If you do a search on Estonia over the last year or so, you'll also see common reference to prices under 25k. As for my comparison to Charles Walter, the Fine list price for Estonia is less than the Fine list price for Charles Walter by 10-15%, depending on how you look at it. This is based off of the 2005 supplement. If the list price for the Estonia 190 is higher than the CW 190 in the 2006 supplement, I'll concede the point.

Yes, I think a price of 20k could be getting down close to dealer-abusing levels. Depends on the dealer, though.

But anyway, don't take my or Ori's word for it. Make your offer and if they say no, see what happens if you start to walk out of the store.

im not needing new features, but i have heard that early on the Estonias had some troubles in the US. notice the small caution Larry Fine gives in the 1995 Book. i just want to avoid any important problems. my guess though is that the problems were occuring more than a couple of years ago.

tunersmith,
I believe that you had encountered a 190 for under 25K within the last 12 months, and in fact, you may have not needed to be aggressive at all at about it... but let me make a few points here.

First, there were price increases that totaled about 30% for Estonia pianos. The increases were in April 2004, June 2004, September 2004 and the end of January 2005. This is for instruments that left the factory after these dates. Since it takes an average of 8-10 weeks until the pianos get from the factory to dealers showrooms, if someone was shopping last summer, say August, he would probably see instruments that were either completely before these increases or instruments that had only the April increase.

In any case, by now it is quite likely that most of the new instruments one encounters have already seen the price increases, and even if some of these pianos arrived to dealers showrooms in March or April, and escaped the last increase, the dealers know that their replacements will cost now more...

Regarding the different areas of the country...well, I didn't remark about the prices in my area. For that matter, I may be the dealer that sells Estonias for the least amount of money in the country or the most amount of money, yet it doesn't change the fact that the average Estonia 190 is being sold for more then 25K.
I would be interested to know which is your area of the country though, and as I commented before, I don't exclude the possibility that you encountered a "special situation" in your shopping experience with or without knowing about it.

For example, If you're from the Northern part of the country, then let me tell you that it is my understanding that there was a dealer in that area that was about to be cancelled as the company didn't have enough instruments, and had to cut a few dealers. For a while, this dealer told the company that he had "pre sold" a certain amount of instruments, and the company agreed to supply him these pianos for a certain period of time. This dealer however, as I understand, didn't really "pre sold" nearly as many pianos as he claimed, and was trying to sell as much as he could in the short time he had been promised to be supplied.
His prices then were a true "bargain".
He tried to sell them for whatever he could get, even if it was only a bit above wholesale, otherwise, he would have had nothing.

I think that the last piano this dealer got was in March or April, and in fact, the person that bought one of his last (if not THE last) pianos, contacted me asking for advice as his piano wasn't prepped and he, although got an amazing price wasn't very pleased.

It cost this person a lot of money and considerable aggravation trying to get his piano to perform the way it should have had from the beginning. The techs that he hired, weren’t familiar with the Estonia, and although they were highly recommended made a mess of his action and hammers, while doing a lot of unnecessary, time consuming, and counter productive things.
Last that I spoke to him he was hoping to get things fixed for the third time. Needless to say, by this point, from every angle that you'd be looking at it, he also paid more then the average buyer although his piano escaped the last price increase and although he got this amazing "bargain".

I hope that the buyer of this piano, who is a forum member (although I didn't see him here for awhile) will read this thread and contribute as to his experience.

Regarding this specific dealer...well he is no longer getting any Estonia pianos and is not an Estonia dealer anymore. Although I’ve heard that he still tried to claim, even after he was cut off, that he can get them...he can't and he won't.

Now from time to time there are opportunities regarding all pianos. Dealers that are going out of business may be reducing their prices and trying to get whatever they can for awhile before they sink, just to keep the cash flow... but when one is buying from a dealer that is going, or is about to go out of business they probably will get the short end of the stick regarding prep and especially after sale service.

Good post, Ori!

P.S. Any Estonia dealer who thinks of *getting out of business*, please give me a call FIRST.....

norbert

Thanks Ori for correctly clarifying my statement.

I think $15K is definitely low for 168. $18K would be a very, very good price given the supply/demand imbalance.

The new Ancott Directory arrive three days ago. It list the 168 in ebony at $27,000. With the imbalance that JoeG and others refer toi, I would think that anything under $23,000 would be a good deal with full pre- and post-sales services.

Dealers need better margins when it is difficult to replace the goods. Estonia prices will most likely keep escalating. If that is the piano you love, buying now makes sense.

What do you sell them for? CND that is.

Or am I asking a bit much.

Stromcrow:

Mine are free.

[..to keep up with other great deals offered by other B.C dealers here at the present time... ]

But you must come to me in person first!

Of course.....

norbert

If only I could get down there. How about a singing telegram? Would that do?

Hmmm...was this piano the one that's price caused so much discussion here last year? Although they might not have been familiar with Estonia pianos, if they were competent techs, why would they be unfamiliar with and screw up Renner actions? Or am I misunderstanding what you wrote? (probably)

Or you could donate it to the “I desperately need a new piano charity fund” fully tax deductible!

I'm coming to Vancouver at the end of January or beginning of February to play grands. Will I still be able to get a "free" one then Norbert?
Tammy
By the way, I have spoken to you on the phone several times and you have always been very helpful! Thank you!

Thank you - you are very welcome!

And of course - there are always some *free* grands to be had.....

Didn't I give out the toll free number of one of our local competitiors here before?

norbert