Posted by Gryphone:
No, but it was sold by the same dealer, under the "special circumstances" I referred to in my last post.


This is a good question.
Pianos are being delivered from the factory when their actions are to certain specs. These, change within a short time and certain things need no be readjusted. When a tech is very familiar with one brand or another, it is much easier for him to anticipate the specific changes that will occur to this piano because he knows the work that is done in the factory. It is also not limited necessarily to the action alone.
Since you, gryphon are also a member of Estonia world, you can check some of my posts in that site regarding technical issues that were asked. You’d find, that I responded and gave the most probable reasons for different problems without ever seeing the instruments involved, and still as it turned out was usually right about the cause of the issue.
This isn’t because I‘m some kind of a “super tech” but because I know these pianos in and out.
Usually these issues sourced in unsatisfactory prep, and sometimes it isn’t because the dealer had skipped on the prep, but because the tech they had couldn’t anticipate the issues, and didn’t do anything to prevent from them from ever happening.

Familiarity with the instrument is important because often a tech, even a competent one, may assume the source of an objectionable issue is because of one thing when in fact it is another.
Few solutions can be offered to a certain problem. Some may have a cost in terms of other aspects of the piano’s performance, while others won’t.

Estonia specifically is using the premium Renner Blue hammers, and a good tech that has experience with these hammers can do a lot with them. Techs that are not as familiar with these hammers, or that are not sure what kind of sound a certain piano brand is aiming to produce can easily damage things.

This is not to say that one needs a tech that is “special” for each brand of piano. Not at all. But during the preparation of the instrument and the first year of it’s life, a piano can benefit greatly from a tech that is a true expert and that is also very familiar with the instrument.
One of the advantages of buying from a local dealer with a good reputation is that your chances of getting a tech that is competent and also familiar with the instrument are significantly higher.

Compliments ladies/gents, this is perhaps the most rational discussion of pricing I have seen on the forum. Everyone starts with a common basis in Fine's 05-06 prices and the most recent Ancott listing. Commonly applied discounts get everyone on the same basic page plus or minus a few K. The recent increase in the list price for Estonias is out in the open. The likely cause is diagnosed (a high demand and no inventory). Somebody mentions "replacement cost" as a reason why models on the floor command the same price as ordered pianos. And we can all comment on the special circumstances that might make certain deals special.

Now, if someone can still get an ebony Estonia 190 for 20K more power to them. And anyone who wants to look into an Estonia seriously, and who reads this thread, will come to a dealer well armed with the facts and also willing to buy quickly if they find the right piano.

David F

Piano Dad,
You made some points in your post that requires a reply. Please except my comments in good spirit as they are given in one.

First, there was no "recent" price increase regarding Estonia pianos, that is unless recent is the End of January 2005.
The street prices though have a way of adjusting up only after the instruments are getting to the dealers and after most of the "older" inventory is gone.

Second, the reason for the price increases wasn’t due to high demand...Estonias were in high demand also 18 months ago. They were due to many gradual improvements and changes that the company implemented in recent years and they had to increase their prices accordingly, usually a short time after the changes were made.

And thired….
In the beginning of the thread, the original poster gave us a quote of what he has been asked to pay for an Estonia 190. It was $29,700 or 10% under the list price.
I think that we can all agree that this the dealers starting point for negotiations and that the consumer may do better then that.

Now, if one follows the Larry Fine guidelines for real street prices, the biggest discount for an Estonia, which is usually reserved for the concert grand will get the buyer to around 25K.
Then however came a poster, suggesting that 25K is very good ("doing pretty good job" negotiating) but added, that he would assume that 20K is possible.
Well, I know that you bought recently a Grotrian 192, and if 20K for the Estonia is possible, then buying a Grotrian 192 for 25K is also possible.

I didn't just pull the 25K Grotrian price out of my hat. I took the list price as it appears at the Larry Fine book, applied the discount that he suggests for some German pianos, and then took another 20% off. This is the same discount one would have to get for the Estonia 190 to be 20K.
So.. if you paid 25K for your Grotrian then “all the power to you”...but somehow I think you paid a bit more (assuming this was a new 2005 instrument).

This may be a civilized discussion, but it isn't realistic nowadays to get a brand new Grotrian 192 for 25K or an Estonia 190 for 20K.
Saying so creates false expectations. Try to call your local dealer and see if you can get any of these two instruments for these amounts.
Good luck.

Now, if everyone looking to buy a Grotrian 192 would walk into the dealers expecting to buy brand new, fully prepped Grotrian, including an artist bench and delivery for 25K they may be very disappointed.
The same would happen if they were to expect to buy Estonia 190's for anywhere near 20K.
It isn't realistic.
So if consumers read threads like this and walk to the dealer with an "all the power to them" approach expecting to pay 25K for a Grotrian, is it good for anyone?

If they'll be thinking when asked to pay 30K for the Grotrian that they are being "robbed"... is it good for anyone?

If you got your Grotrian 192 for under 25K then "all the power to you", but don't expect all other shoppers to be able to do the same.
And if you paid more then this...well, now you know the feeling when you read that others "think" that they can get a Grotrian 192 for under 25K.

One more thing.
List prices or MSRP are very poor indication of anything. Some companies inflate their list prices while others don't. If one can get 20% off one brand of pianos he may actually be doing much better then getting 30% off another brand. Larry Fine tries to create a formula that will equalize the "list price" with the wholesale cost. Sometimes he succeeds, but often he doesn't get the "real" prices as policies of certain companies is to offer discounts to their dealers based on volume, few instrument purchases, cash buying or what other excuse they can think of, while other companies simply won't do it and charge the same for every dealer.

The Ancott prices are usually what ever the manufacturer will provide the book. The prices there will be either equal or higher then the Larry Fine prices. They won't be lower. The Ancott book isn't a "consumer friendly" book but rather the opposite.
The companies that like to "inflate" their prices can thrive in this book giving whatever price they like.

So when shopping for pianos, compare instruments and their actual selling prices... compare the price you can get one piano for to other instruments rather then to the percentage of discount of the "list price".

Consider the instruments sound, feel and quality (how long it will perform as you like it and as it supposed to perform) in regards to the price you have to pay for it.
This will give the shopper the best indication of what's the best value or "deal" for them.

If the Estonia really has gone up 30% within 12 months, then feel free to ignore my other comments. But I doubt that is honestly the case. That would mean that the Estonia 190 list price in the 2006 supplement would clearly exceed the 2006 list price for the Charles Walter 190, which you can also get below 25k. If anyone can tell me that's true, then ok. I'd be surprised, but ok. I'd be sad that Estonia had priced itself out of its previously attractive price/performance pocket.

I definitely do not agree that the price range for the 168 would go as low as 15k though. That's way too low.

Ori,

I think you misunderstood my mild sarcasm. When I said "more power to you" in my earlier post, that was a polite way of saying "good luck, you don't have a chance at getting it that cheap." Reread my second paragraph where I refer to "looking at an Estonia seriously[/b] ."

Your very long discussion of the possible pricing on my new Grotrian seems to have been based on your misunderstanding of my use of language. For that I apologize, though in my defense I presume many others did understand me.

I wish you had used a less "in my face" approach in discussing pricing, however. There was nothing in my post that warranted your condescending tone.

Now, when I was shopping earlier this year an ebony Estonia 190 was listed at $29,300 in the 04-05 edition of the Piano Book supplement. John Ruggero whipped out a more recent Ancott and showed me that it had gone up to 33K (if I remember that rightly). By the way, the Ancott price for all the other brands I was looking at was spot-on the Larry Fine price. He commented that Estonia prices were rising rapidly, and that was a 13% rise over earlier Ancott prices. A 25-30 percent discount is not impossible, which puts a plausible strike price in the neighborhood of 24K to 26K.

Lastly, you assert that it is the technical improvements that have pushed up the price. This is possible, but so is a recognition at Estonia that they may have been underpricing their instruments relative to the demand. Both explanations would lead to a higher price and without data on cost we'll never know which was more important. John Ruggero said nothing to me about technical improvements driving up price. His thought was that Estonia just decided to price to market more than they had in the past when they were trying to earn their place in the piano firmament. We're all in somewhat of a fog here about causality.

tunesmith,
I detailed before the price increases dates for Estonia pianos and the fact that these dates applied to the times where shipped from the factory. It takes some time until pianos actually get to dealers showrooms and until some older inventory is gone and dealers adjust their prices. This "lag" can be three to five months.

The Larry Fine supplement goes to print every June. In his 2003/2004 supplement the list price for the 168 was $21,402 and for the 190 it was $26550.

In his 2005/2006 supplement, the list price is $27,000 for the 5'6 and $33,000 for the 190.

It is a price increase of about 26% for the 5'6 and 25% for the 6'3. In fact, a 5'6 now cost more then a 6'3 did before the price increases started. All these increases occurred between early April 2004 and late January 2005 over a period of less then 10 months. The average "lag" for adjusting will suggest that most street prices went up in the same percentage between August/September 2004 and May 2005.
Some may have done it sooner, others a bit later but this is about the time period these increases took place. There were no other price increases between the publications of the 2003/2004 and the 2005/2006 supplements. The 2004/2005 edition listed the increases for April and June 2004 but not the September and January increases.
There was no price increase since the end of January 2004 (the NAMM show) and there are no plans o increase the price as far as I know again until this coming January and the 2006 NAMM show. This is the time where most piano makers increase their prices yearly to keep up with inflation and rising costs of materials and transportation.

By the way, before these price increases, the shipping to dealers around the country was included in the price of the instrument, now, dealers have to pay for it separately, which brings the true price increase to almost 30%.
I hope that all helps to convince you and clear up the matter. You can check for yourself if you have the Larry fine price supplements for the relevant years.

In any case as I mentioned before, when piano shopping, consumers should look at the true street price of an instrument from as they can get it from their local dealer and compare it to other instruments on the market. Inflated list prices means very little.

If Estonia will inflate the list price of their model 190 to 45K, would it make it a better piano?
If the dealer will offer then a huge 35% discount and sell it for $29250, is it a better "deal" then getting the same instrument at $26400, which is "only" 20% from its uninflected list price of 33K?
Which is the better "deal" out of these two choices?

It also seems that many piano shoppers and even commission based industry sales people that have truly very little knowledge of pianos will equate a higher price tag automatically with higher quality. While certainly true that this is the rule of thumb, some pianos may be grossly overpriced (whether in list or street prices) while others will offer greater value.
Different efficiency levels of the factory workers, cost of SKILLED labor, tax systems by the local governments, shipping expenses, distribution expenses and the cost of doing business n the country of origin can all be very different. This can result in a price difference between 2 instruments of the SAME quality that is dramatic.
This will leave one instrument as the better value. If a consumer likes the less expensive instrument better...then good for him, he got the same quality for less money. If the consumer likes the more expensive piano better, then he will have to pay for it as it is what he likes.
Some consumers though, would buy the more expensive and prestigious (sometimes prestigious even only in their minds) instrument, for more money, in spite of it being inferior to the less expensive one...just because it is more expensive and they feel that by this they ensure a higher quality.
If the sales person in the store can’t explain the consumer WHY one instrument is of “higher quality” then another, besides the obvious difference in the cost, then either he doesn’t know the difference and should learn about the instruments he sells, or that there is NO difference.
Assuming always that a higher priced instrument is “better” (objectively speaking from a stand point of quality…design, parts, materials and workmanship) is a mistake.

I would only like to point out that this is only regarding NEW pianos. One have to consider all the parameters I mentioned, that sometimes can conflict with each other. When talking about rebuilt or restored pianos, these factors are actually contradicting most of the time, and the rule of thumb saying "you pay for what you get", is as true as it gets in the rebuilt market. No rebuilder has ALL the advantages, or enough advantages to make a significant price difference when we are talking about two SIMILAR quality rebuilding jobs.

Pianodad,
I apologize if I appeared to have a condescending tone, it wasn't my intention at all. I value you and your contribution, appreciate your posts and only wanted to demonstrate what kind of a price reduction we're talking about in order to get to the unrealistic price levels that were discussed.

I know you must have paid more for your piano even if you got the "best" deal as the prices mentioned were not realistic.
I didn't mean to appear rude in any way with an "in your face" approach...I guess that's what it looked like and I apologize for that again.

Indeed, we agree that 20K for a new 190 is quite unrealistic ...unless it is damaged!

Oh, and I did indeed get a good deal on my Grotrian

Best,

David F

I freely admit that I have never gotten down to brass tacks with a dealer about the final price of an Estonia 190. My judgments are based off of the following data:

1) The comparison between Fine list prices for the Estonia 190 and the CW 190. Estonia has always been cheaper
2) Estonia's reputation as a lower-margin maker, even though the margin has increased with its reputation
3) Estonia's relative quality level to the Charles Walter - in my opinion, comparable, although I (subjectively) think Charles Walter is superior in some ways
4) Street price of the Charles Walter
5) Very preliminary discussions of Estonia 190 price 12-14 months ago.

And in my subjective opinion, if the Estonia 190 has increased enough in price that it cannot be bought for less than the price of a Charles Walter, and that it's very unlikely to be bought at 25k, then it is at a less attractive price/performance point than I first assumed. If it really is possible to get a Grotrian for under 30k, I'd probably start looking there.

Tunesmith,

You cannot get a new Grotrian 192 for under 30K. I suspect you'd be hard pressed to find one for 40K now. Ori was making a calculation on the Grotrian that would yield a similar percentage discount a person would get if they managed to buy an ebony Estonia 190 for an unlikely (or impossible) 20K. A Grotrian 192 probably lists for over 54K now. I don't have my 05-06 supplement yet, so I don't know for sure.

Best,

David F

Just my quick 2 cents. I was offered a new Charles Walter 190 for $20,000. I'm guessing from this discussion that this was a pretty good price (this is not a rhetorical question - please comment)?

i was very serious about the CW 190 back in 2001 and i was offered one for $21K back then. and that was considered a very good price back then.

if you love this particular CW 190, then grab it! but don't ever buy a piano just because it is a good deal. you'll forget what you paid very quickly, but you'll live with its personality for a very long time.

I think the dealer pays $24k for a CW190 now! Up until about 4 months ago, dealers were paying $19k for the CW190.

20k sounds like a smoking deal fow a new CW190 in new (up to standards) condition.

If I could get a Walter 190 like the one I got for 20k, I would go ahead and buy it just to have a spare!

rick:

I'm sorry to tell you but you made several mistakes:

1] Never buy a piano that doesn't speak to you in the first place! A tech is to *complement* what is already *there*: he is not *creating* it !

2] The store's technician should have been your first[/b] resource, not second. Technicians often use very different methods and the second guy tends to often *blame* the first one of what was perhaps not done right. If these guys happen to know each other....things can get muddled up out there....

3] Your piano was with fairly great certainty not a recent model. Current Estonias require no more than 2-6 hours work tops. Our last 6'3 grand was *perfect* after only 2 hours. So, sorry, I have a hard time to buy 2 days work here....

4] Go back to the dealer and tell him your malaise. Estonia is getting quite particular who they choose as dealer and it would be his interest to make things right for you.

Obviously the man has agreed to help you now.

Why only *now* - remains a mystery....

Best of luck!

norbert

Norbert,
Rick unfortunately is the person I spoke about earlier in this thread.
His piano is a fairly new production piano and indeed it seem to have suffered from having much work with little results, or worse...unwanted results. As for the dealer, as I explained before he was in the process of no longer being an Estonia dealer even before Rick got this "deal" for his piano.

Read Ricks post again...the dealer that agreed to help him now is his local dealer, not the one he bought the piano from. His local dealer is where he saw a beautiful Estonia piano, yet it was a bit too much than what he wanted to pay.

I think that it's nice of the local dealer to help. After all it was his inventory and piano preparation that brought Rick to search for a better deal thinking that the prep needed to bring a piano to the level that he had seen would take only a few hours by any "good" tech.

By the way, for me it takes quite a bit longer to get the piano to perform to at its maximum ability then the time it takes to your technicians.
Yet I agree that if all that is to be done is go over the instrument and make sure everything perform correctly and without interruptions it shouldn't take too long.
With some more work though, and a patient attention to each note these pianos can truly shine.

Regarding Ricks piano, as it is now more relevant, I copy the comments I made about this matter here again:


For example, If you're from the Northern part of the country, then let me tell you that it is my understanding that there was a dealer in that area that was about to be cancelled as the company didn't have enough instruments, and had to cut a few dealers. For a while, this dealer told the company that he had "pre sold" a certain amount of instruments, and the company agreed to supply him these pianos for a certain period of time. This dealer however, as I understand, didn't really "pre sold" nearly as many pianos as he claimed, and was trying to sell as much as he could in the short time he had been promised to be supplied.
His prices then were a true "bargain".
He tried to sell them for whatever he could get, even if it was only a bit above wholesale, otherwise, he would have had nothing.

I think that the last piano this dealer got was in March or April, and in fact, the person that bought one of his last (if not THE last) pianos, contacted me asking for advice as his piano wasn't prepped and he, although got an amazing price wasn't very pleased.

It cost this person a lot of money and considerable aggravation trying to get his piano to perform the way it should have had from the beginning. The techs that he hired, weren’t familiar with the Estonia, and although they were highly recommended made a mess of his action and hammers, while doing a lot of unnecessary, time consuming, and counter productive things.
Last that I spoke to him he was hoping to get things fixed for the third time. Needless to say, by this point, from every angle that you'd be looking at it, he also paid more then the average buyer although his piano escaped the last price increase and although he got this amazing "bargain".

I hope that the buyer of this piano, who is a forum member (although I didn't see him here for awhile) will read this thread and contribute as to his experience.

Regarding this specific dealer...well he is no longer getting any Estonia pianos and is not an Estonia dealer anymore. Although I’ve heard that he still tried to claim, even after he was cut off, that he can get them...he can't and he won't.

Now from time to time there are opportunities regarding all pianos. Dealers that are going out of business may be reducing their prices and trying to get whatever they can for awhile before they sink, just to keep the cash flow... but when one is buying from a dealer that is going, or is about to go out of business they probably will get the short end of the stick regarding prep and especially after sale service.

[/b]
And:

Pianos are being delivered from the factory when their actions are to certain specs. These, change within a short time and certain things need no be readjusted. When a tech is very familiar with one brand or another, it is much easier for him to anticipate the specific changes that will occur to this piano because he knows the work that is done in the factory. It is also not limited necessarily to the action alone.
Since you, gryphon are also a member of Estonia world, you can check some of my posts in that site regarding technical issues that were asked. You’d find, that I responded and gave the most probable reasons for different problems without ever seeing the instruments involved, and still as it turned out was usually right about the cause of the issue.
This isn’t because I‘m some kind of a “super tech” but because I know these pianos in and out.
Usually these issues sourced in unsatisfactory prep, and sometimes it isn’t because the dealer had skipped on the prep, but because the tech they had couldn’t anticipate the issues, and didn’t do anything to prevent from them from ever happening.

Familiarity with the instrument is important because often a tech, even a competent one, may assume the source of an objectionable issue is because of one thing when in fact it is another.
Few solutions can be offered to a certain problem. Some may have a cost in terms of other aspects of the piano’s performance, while others won’t.

Estonia specifically is using the premium Renner Blue hammers, and a good tech that has experience with these hammers can do a lot with them. Techs that are not as familiar with these hammers, or that are not sure what kind of sound a certain piano brand is aiming to produce can easily damage things.

This is not to say that one needs a tech that is “special” for each brand of piano. Not at all. But during the preparation of the instrument and the first year of it’s life, a piano can benefit greatly from a tech that is a true expert and that is also very familiar with the instrument.
One of the advantages of buying from a local dealer with a good reputation is that your chances of getting a tech that is competent and also familiar with the instrument are significantly higher.


[/b]

so Ori -if you wrote a little tech manual for Estonias, I'd buy one... for instance we only have about 4 Estonias in my metro. My well respected tunertech met mine and has worked on a couple of the early ones... that's all.

truly excellent points, ori.

Gryphon, Didn't you get your 190 for closer to 17k 4-5 years ago?

I haven't been around much for the latest round of increases, or much at all for that matter, but its sad to read this thread and find Estonia is ramming though price adjustments as stiff as 25+%.

Ori, you are a nice, educated sounding dealer. I'd like to respond to a couple of the things you've said in your posts:

Having first read this and then the subsequent post from the customer, it looks like his whole issue surrounds an incompetent tech. It looks like this person can't tune pianos, so never mind anything else. Maybe I'm wrong and Estonia has come up with some kind of exotic new tuning pin, but the point here is how different can the Renner equiped Estonia be to a competent tech? The answer is "not very". The felt compacts...the let-off changes...the springs need more tweaking..strings stretch. Routine stuff for a new piano. If there is anything that isn't routine, it speaks to the quality of Estonia.

A raw specimen and a good tech can be THE formula for some. It may not beat the quintessential buy the piano in its final form philosophy, but one also has to consider not all areas selling Estonia feature finely prepped ones. Even the ones that do are going to be approached by customers who have a different idea of what they want from those Renner Blues. In any event, the price difference can be thousands while quality tech prep work is generally in the hundreds.

It's tough to go to a piano store, pick up the finely printed greeting card price tag and hollar "but what is the true street price". People generally don't want to get worked by one, or two, salesmen and then put on an act before closing in on the "true street price". They get the MSRP, come to a place like this, get feedback and PM's on the lows paid, read long treatices on price increases and ballpark their way back to the dealer.

The last I looked, 30k was a different league in piano quality from what one could get a few years ago for 17-21k. If Estonia is now there, I can only hope for their sake that all of the other european names have similarly risen.

Chris W1

2.5 years ago. $17.8K delivered on March 15, 2003 (warrantee birth date of November 25, 2002). No chance of finding them anywhere near that price nowadays!

ChrisW,
First let me address your comments regarding the price.
Gryphon is an excellent example for what has happened to Estonia prices. He bought a piano that was made in the end of 2002, and avoided the January 2003 price adjustment that occurred after that years NAMM.
At the time, prices in the upper teens for Estonia pianos were relatively common.
However, I took out my calculator and added the early 2003 price increase to the others I mentioned before, and also added the extra shipping cost that dealers have to pay now into the mix and came up with...$24,765.
This is the equivalent of the price Gryphon paid then in adjustment to the price increases and keeping up with the same dealer margins.

A very good deal by any means for today’s Estonias, and somewhat less then what the average buyer pays around the country, but still this is a price that won't raise too many eyebrows as not being realistic.
The delivery/purchase date of Gryphon's piano also may have had something to do with the better then average price of the time. It was March 2003, a time that due to the war in Iraq piano sales have slowed down considerably around the country for a period of about a month and a half and great deals could have been had at the time, as many dealers were getting nervous.

In any case, calculating street prices isn't so hard with the Estonia.
Larry fine offers in his supplements a guide suggesting how to calculate street prices and by his suggestions in the 2005-2006 supplement the median street price is $26,400.

I agree that if someone is paying at this time 30K for an Ebony Estonia he is paying considerably more then the average buyer, but in all likelihood most buyers don't pay these prices. The true range is much closer to the Larry Fine suggested street prices, and although can be a bit higher or a bit lower, a drastic discrepancy from his suggestions to either way rarely occurs...at least in regards to Estonia pianos.

Many other European pianos also went up in their prices. It is common to see a yearly price increase of 3%-4% for reasons of inflation and the necessity that manufactures have to keep up with increasing costs of materials and workmanship.
To this though, there was an additional factor.
between the end of 2003 and the end of 2004, the dollar weakened considerably compared to the Euro and the Japanese Yen. Many manufacturers had to increase their prices considerably, more then just to keep up with rising costs due to this fact...and this wasn't limited only to imported pianos, as even some American pianos have parts that are made elsewhere (Renner actions for example).
I would estimate that the average European piano increased by about 15%-20% during the last three years. Estonia though, as mentioned before went up even considerably more.

Many think that the decline of the Dollar was a reason that contributed considerably to the increases in the Estonia prices, but this isn't accurate. Yes, Estonia was affected by the drop in the Dollar value, but there was a factor that offset this issue almost completely.
In the summer of 2001, The president of the company, Dr. Indrek Laul went from being the majority owner of the company to being the full 100% owner of the company. This allowed him a lot more freedom in decision-making regarding the direction the company was to take, and also freedom to have the factory more efficient.

In 2002 Estonia produced less then 350 pianos a year with almost 150 employees. Today, production is closer to 400 made by only about 100 employees.

The efficiency of the factory workers increased by almost 40% and this was offsetting the decline of the Dollar. The timing of the reorganization in the company was also excellent as it was done just before Estonia joined the European community and had to abide by their workplace rules that make it very costly to cut back on employees.

So if the increase in efficiency of the factory workers was offsetting the decline of the Dollar what made the Estonia price go up?
Well, Dr. Laul made a calculated decision about the future of the company and where he'd like his pianos to be in the market in terms of quality and performance. He wanted to have his pianos compared in their build quality to the best of the best. After his he acquired 100% and full control of the company in 2001, and after restructuring the company and keeping only the best work force he was free to do so.

Pianos such as Gryphon bought were already beautiful instruments, but Indrek wanted to increase the build quality and improve performance even more.
The instruments today have been improved in many ways.
The soundboard material is different, the bridges are different, the plate is different, the plate's finish is different, the 5'6 rims are different and the fitting of the soundboard to the rim is different, the bass strings are different, the hammers are different, the veneers for the wood finishes are different, the hardware is different, the wood for the lyres and legs is different...

And actually I should have said in regards to all this different and more expensive, yet necessary if the Estonia is to be considered a true tier one quality instrument. Increased quality comes at a price.

I remember discussing with Indrek about many of the coming changes well before they were implemented and he usually asked..."do you think we should do it?" and "do you think it will improve the performance of the instrument?” My reply was usually..."yes, it will make it better, but how much more will it increase the price?’ Indrek though seemed to be less concerned then I was about the matter and usually replied with something like this:
"As long as we are increasing the efficiency of our factory and can sell all the instruments that we can make easily, cost isn't much of an issue. Yes, the pianos will be more expensive, but we'll be competing in a different segment and since the average cost of the instrument we'll be competing with instruments that are much more expensive, we'll stand out even more as being the best value in the industry and won't have any problems to keep on and sell our instruments".

In my opinion, Dr. Laul's predictions were right on the money. Although some people, especially those that are not very familiar with current production of Estonia pianos seem to try and insist that these instruments should be compared to the same instruments that Estonia was compared with 5-6 years ago...the reality is that most serious buyers are often looking at today’s Estonias as the non compromising performance pianos they are, and comparing them in terms of performance to the best pianos around.
I also think this to be true, and although I work with a few high-end brands believe that Estonia is comparable to them in terms of performance and still the best value in the industry. Today, even more so then it was three and four years ago while being sold for considerably less.

After all, Estonia still doesn’t have any problems in selling their production and still have a problem in meeting with the demand for more instruments. Estonia isn’t appointing dozens of new dealers around the country although many are banging on their doors. This is a unique successes story in today’s piano market, and I believe it shows that Estonia prices have still much more room to grow.
It could very well be that in much of the same way that prices in the mid twenties, which were outrageously high only three years ago, are considered now a great bargain…prices in the 30’s, that are considered outrageously high now, would be a great bargain only a few years down the road, as Estonia continues to increase it’s reputation and is getting more and more excepted into the ranks of the world premier manufacturers.
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As to your other comments regarding the technical aspects, I already answer them in my previous post before.
Here is the part that should answer your questions AGAIN:


Familiarity with the instrument is important because often a tech, even a competent one, may assume the source of an objectionable issue is because of one thing when in fact it is another.
Few solutions can be offered to a certain problem. Some may have a cost in terms of other aspects of the piano’s performance, while others won’t.

Estonia specifically is using the premium Renner Blue hammers, and a good tech that has experience with these hammers can do a lot with them. Techs that are not as familiar with these hammers, or that are not sure what kind of sound a certain piano brand is aiming to produce can easily damage things.

This is not to say that one needs a tech that is “special” for each brand of piano. Not at all. But during the preparation of the instrument and the first year of it’s life, a piano can benefit greatly from a tech that is a true expert and that is also very familiar with the instrument.
One of the advantages of buying from a local dealer with a good reputation is that your chances of getting a tech that is competent and also familiar with the instrument are significantly higher.


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"Many think that the decline of the Dollar was a reason that contributed considerably to the increases in the Estonia prices, but this isn't accurate. Yes, Estonia was affected by the drop in the Dollar value, but there was a factor that offset this issue almost completely."

Ori, you make a good point here. Estonia became part of the European community in May of 2004. The devaluation of the U.S. Dollar versus the Euro and other currencies was instituted mainly to serve as a catalyst for foreign investors, as their currency could effectively purchase more U.S. dollars and goods as a direct result of the devaluation. Further, Japan is the largest purveyor of U.S. Bonds, which finance our government's endeavors. So, in essence, we needed to spend more dollars to purchase the same amount of Euros and Yen based products than before the devaluation took place. You are also correct in stating that this would have less impact when one considers the enhancements that Estonia has instituted over the past 5 years; specifically, exclusive use of Siberian Spruce in all of their soundboards (quarter sawn), their rims are much thicker than most of their Japanese counterparts and constructed from laminated Baltic birch, use of Roslau strings and of course, Renner actions with Renner blue hammers. Finally, their special scaling design (based on the collective research of scientists from the Estonia Piano Factory, the Estonian Institute of Cybernetics and several European scale design specialists) clearly resulted in the "singing" quality found in these finely crafted instruments. Even the 168 is most remarkable when compared to competitive counterparts in the same (and even higher) price ranges. Of course, there are other reasons, as you stated. And their convenient locale, being adjacent to the Baltic sea, precludes the need for costly ground shipping to reach an adequate port, thereby enhancing Estonia's ability to keep transportation expenses under control and further provide the ability to re-invest profits back into the company.

To the readers of this thread, I'm not a dealer. Just someone who is doing my homework before purchasing my first acoustic.

Roger,
Thank you for your explanation of the international currency markets.
Couple of quick points though...Estonia pianos are no longer using Siberian white spruce.
Since 2001, they’ve been using on their concert grand pianos white spruce that is sourced from the mountains of the Alps. The boards are supplied to Estonia by a German company that works with a few other high end European manufacturers, and to the highest specs as demanded by Estonia. During 2002 and 2003 there was a gradual move to these soundboards for their other models too. In the past year or so, all Estonia pianos (the 5'6, 6'3 and the concert grand) have already been built using these soundboards.
Also yes, Estonia is using Roslau wire strings, but so does many other companies. Treble strings are relatively inexpensive and there are only a few wire suppliers for much of the piano industry. So although this is true, it isn't a good measure to asses the parts quality.

Other reasons that the company can be so competitive other then the no need for ground transportation are:
A different and more friendly tax system in Estonia, the lower cost of labor over there, lack of almost any advertising budget (no need for it) or any kind of costly concert and artists programs, and the fact that they are doing their own distribution in the US, essentially cutting off the middle man.

Ori,
Thanks for the update on the sound boards and their marketing strategy. Also, I realize that the Roslau strings are not a unique selling point, but I was rather just pointing out that Estonia has clearly made a proactive attempt to address details in all aspects of their products. Certainly, they are to be commended to being able to quickly and effectively incorporate new ideas and methods in their vigilant attempt to further outperform their competitors. If they continue on their present tack, there's no doubt that they will eventually obtain the notoriety they deserve.

Dear Roger,

The Estonia piano has been recognized by many professionals and institutions already. In Philadelphia, it is the main recital instrument for WRTI, the classical station for the city. The Director of Villanova University's music program uses one in his home, Marc-Andre Hamelin plays one in his Philly home - it is just the general public that hasn't quite caught up to the professional community as yet.

Interestingly, when so many have good things to say about the pianos, it spills over into the general population pretty easily. I have had many amateur musicians consider these instruments simply because of the good word of a respected professional. For most of these people, the Estonia piano never would have been considered if they hadn't heard a professional praise it.

Of course, once they PLAY the piano, they don't need to hear from others. They have ears... and that is all they need.

*Good ears*...of course!

norbert

Yes, buy the CW190 for 20k. Best I've been able to find an ebony for is 22k, and even that is an extremely good deal. As it is, 20k almost sounds suspicious. I hope your dealers aren't hurting themselves.

Wow, very, very interesting posts!

I'm curious. I thought I had Renner blues, but can I infer from your post they might be reds? How can I tell? (Not that it'll matter as I already love the way it sounds). Just curious. I don't even remember the difference between the two. My RPT is coming in a couple of weeks for a tuning/check-up. Maybe I'll ask him if he knows. I know the bass was enhanced in the newest 190 models and by all accounts everyone likes the improvement.

I am a dealer who just took on the Estonia line in the Pittsburgh Pa. market-I'm very excited about what this piano has to offer someone looking for a concert quality piano at a price you'd normally pay for a piano of far less quality-I've sold Baldwin in the past and just recently parted ways with the company-Estonia will take the niche held by Baldwin's Artist series in my store and frankly,offer a superior piano (in my opinion) at a lesser price-