As a new Estonia dealer (Pittsburgh,Pa.)-I would like to hear from anyone about their experience with Estonia-724-981-5786 ext 13.

Gryphon,
The switch to the Renner Blue from the Renner red was done as I recall sometime in 2003. I don’t remember exactly when though. It could be that the new hammers were already in instruments that left the factory in late 2002 and arrived to dealers early 2003...so your piano may have the Blues.

It's very easy to check. Just take off the music desk and look at the hammers through the strings. The hammers have a strip of colored felt around the wooden part. If the color of the strip is Blue then you have the Renner Blue. If the color is red...well, then it's the "red" that you have. A flashlight may help you to see the colors better but it's pretty obvious anyway.

Ah, yes, I see it. There are a couple of strips of red felt, plus red pins, on each hammer's action. No need to remove the music desk at all, but the flashlight helped tremendously. It appears that I have Renner reds.

So would you remind all of us what the difference is between the reds and blues? If one is harder/softer, would the strings' tension be correspondingly lower or higher to complement it or what? I would assume there is a reason to produce more than one type of hammer.

Estonia wanted to get a bit more power and projection from the Bass section at the time. The switch to the somewhat harder Renner Blue hammers was for this reason. The power did increase, but not as significantly as it did when the bass strings were also rescaled some months later. The length of the bass strings remained the same but the diameter of the copper winding and the method by which strings are made now is different. The combination of the hammers /bass strings resulted in a much more powerful bass section.

Ori,

On the hammer scale, where do Abel hammers fit in relation to Renner red and blue?

Ori, I was mistaken. I didn't understand what you were telling me. I looked at the action last night and the only felt I saw was red felt on the non-hammer action parts. But looking at it today in the light I now see what you mean.

There *is* a strip of BLUE[/b] felt between the hammer wood and the hammer felt itself. I didn't notice that last night at like 2:30 am. I should have used a better flashlight.

Gryphon,

'tis truly a sad, sad day when it's 2:30 in the morning and you're shining a flashlight into your Estonia to see what color the hammers are!

But, on the other hand, it's truly a sad, sad day when I comment on it!


George

Edit: Dupe

I'm an idiot!

:rolleyes:

LOL, I think we are all guilty of this kind of behavior, after all, aren't we all just a little 'nuts' about pianos?

Ori, I am curious as well about the differences between Abel Encore hammers and Renner Blue's. On my 1925 M&H RBB restoration, we put in Able Encore's. ...the piano is not back from the restore's yet, so I can't comment on whether I like the Abel's.

Gpman

I've not got my forum clock set right. Actually I think it was only 1:30 am. That's much better.

Both Renner and Abel make some excellent hammers. Unlike the New York Steinway hammers, the hammers by these companies don't usually need hardening with chemicals.

Both Abel and Renner make different quality hammers, some are better and more expensive then others. The Renner Blue is the top of the line Renner hammer, it is used by companies like Mason & Hamlin and the Hamburg Steinway in addition to Estonia. I'm not really familiar with the Able "encore" to form any opinion but some of their hammers are remarkable and wonderful to work with.

There are al kinds of hammers in the market, and although the better hammers will use finer wool and will be uniform and consistent in density this is only part of the story.

The hammer actually have to match the piano design and to reflect the intentions of the designer as to how the piano should sound.

You can see from the pictures Gryphon posted of the Renner Blue that the wood moulding inside (I believe it's mahogany) is getting gradually thinner towards the treble side for a better evenness of sound potential. Some hammers are getting thinner in their wood moulding only large segments.

Grandpianoman,
Some rebuilders have preference for one kind of hammer over another. They get used to work with a certain hammer and can get good results with it.
We usually install New York Steinway hammers on our rebuilt Steinways and sometimes do this also with the rebuilt Mason & Hamlin.
In other Mason & Hamlin pianos we install the Renner Blue hammers. I'm sure that a good rebuilder that is accustomed to work with Abel encore hammers will get good results with them.

Ori, the Premium Blue is not Renner's top shelf hammer. The Renner AA Würzen felt hammers made for Bösendorfer, Bechstein, Blüthner,and Hamburg Steinway are considered higher quality.
Abel makes many different types of hammers for the European market. The Abel Encores are made to the specification of the US distributor Wally Brooks, and are not the same as those which can be ordered from their factory catologue.

Let me also add that Louis Renner lists over 250 different hammer types are available, or can be manufactured to order. Blue and red are only the color of the underfelt. Orange, green, and several other colors are also used.
The type, quality/density, and how the felt that covers the hammer,and how it is pressed, is what is most important.

Curry,
Interesting that you note that, I'll check with Renner if indeed the Hamburg Steinway Renner hammer is actually different then the Renner Blue or if it is only the name that's different...
If there is a difference then thanks for the correction. I’ll return the favor by letting you know that the Bluthner hammer isn't made by Renner but rather by Able specifically for Bluthner.
These are cold pressed hammers with walnut molding.
The interesting part in regards to the Bluthner hammer is that it is bored straight in the section near by the break and the hammer itself is cut at an angle in order to fit the strings. In every other piano as far as I know the hammers are straight and they are bored in an angle at this section.
It is a wonderful hammer to work with.

Thanks Ori and Curry for the info....I was told that these Able Encore's are pretty close in sound and a good match to what M&H used back in the 20's for their BB's.... ....looking forward to hearing the piano when it's finally finished in a few weeks!

Gpman

True enough.

In a discussion with Norbert Able few years back, Norbert pointed out that there are sometimes great variations in the actual felt the hammer makers receive from the felt companies.

Air pollution,less than ideal packing and a myriad of bleaches, import required desinfectants and other chemical goodies, conspire to constantly bring variance to the raw material the hammer makers have to work with.

I guess, a similiar challenge as wine makers in the various parts of the world have to grapple with.

Or was that 'graple'??

norbert

I would have loved to hear that conversation:


Norbert - > Squared!






George

curry,
I wrote this before:
Which is very similar to what you said above.

Now, the underfelt color IS just a color and plays no part in the hammer quality, yet these are the colors/names Renner chose to distinguish between the different quality hammers they make.
If there wasn't any difference in the underfelt color there would have been quite a confusion when hammers need to be ordered.

So the underfelt is kind of like the screen name on PW...I'm Ori and you're Curry, and if we didn't have the screen names by our posts then everyone would be very confused when reading our posts.

Ori, correct on the Abels that Blüthner uses. I also feel that their design principle of hanging hammers cut to the correct bore angle, instead of just hanging hammers bored to the correct angle. They say this allows equal distribution of the power of the hammer blow across the strings. I feel this is evident in how the piano sounds and feels.

Yes it does, but there is also a mechanical advantage. I don't have the time to explain now but think backchecks...

Just out of curiosity, has anyone seen the Estonia 9 foot concert grand on Ebay?

http://cgi.ebay.com/Estonia-9ft-Concert-...1QQcmdZViewItem

Don't know anything about it. This seller also has a 6'7" Schulze Pollman for under $20K. I have been curious about ebay pianos. Too bad a PW member who lives close to the seller can't check these out and report back. A great deal or total BS?

that older Estonia has shown up before

As apple mentioned, this piano has been discussed before.

Generally speaking, Estonia pianos from the mid 90's have very little in common with anything that Estonia is producing today. Not only the production, parts and materials are very different, but the instruments were completely redesigned in 1999 (the redesigned pianos were mostly seen in the US from the year 2000) and as we discussed, even these redesigned instruments were greatly upgraded.
The concert grand was redesigned in 2001.
Pianos of the 90’s vintage are not considered to be nearly as good as anything produced from the year 2000 and on. Late 90’s pianos were also better then mid 90’s production.

It is interesting to note that in 1995 these pianos very inexpensive, one could buy the concert grand for roughly the price of this used one now. I think in 1995 these concert grands were sold in the mid twenties

Ori,

I think the most interesting aspect of the one on ebay, and the part of the story that seems the most suspect, is that the piano was supposedly rebuilt by Estonia in their factory in 2002-03. How does this change your observations?

Wow! Great reference, Apple. If the Estonia was considered a good buy given all the discussion of model changes, then the much newer Schulze Pollmann for $18K (6'7") looks to ba a steal.

Treeman,
It doesn't change my observation and it doesn't really matter what the seller of the piano is saying. This instrument was NOT "rebuilt" by the Estonia piano factory and COULD NOT be brought to today’s standards anyway for the following reasons.

1. It is a different design.
2. The major parts in the instrument are original. The soundboard (most likely the pin block too, as there isn't any specific mentioning to it) and the action for example.

There was probably no reason to change the board or block and the instrument may be a very good instrument and a very good "deal", yet it has very little to do with current production Estonias.

The scale design, the rim, the framework, the soundboard, the pinblock, the plate and it's finish, the action, the bridges and even the hardware are all different.
The workmanship level that built this piano is different too, so what’s left?

As I said in the other thread before, I'd rather pay 50K for a used 2-year-old Estonia concert grand then 25K for a 1994 Estonia even if it was refinished and restrung at the factory, along with some other mostly cosmetic upgrades.
In essence this piano is much closer to a 1994 production then it is to current instruments.
Yet, if anyone has the space, and is limited by budget yet want to have a concert grand this MAY be a good opportunity.

I can't comment on it further without actually seeing the piano myself.
However, and not specifically in regards to this instrument, I found that often the Internet is not the best medium to search for a piano. One must be willing to travel far, have the ability to asses the instrument while there and be willing to have a piano that have no “father” to take care of if the need arise.
One must try the piano and listen to it before forming an opinion. A concert grand is not what most piano buyers weigh to have in their homes anyway. Usually who ever is looking for one knows the important of trying the instrument personally and will trust their ears.

treeman,
I can't really comment in regards to the SP as again, this is (by the seller) an instrument that was made at least 4 years ago and wasn't in a showroom since he got out of business in 2003. I don’t know where it’s been and how it was maintained.
This may be a great opportunity or not, depending on how the piano was maintained and what is its condition.

This however isn't the reason that I'm responding to your comment.
I'm doing so because it seems to me that you are very focused on the "deal" rather then on the instrument.

I've seen people before thinking that if a piano has a list price of X, then half of that is a great “deal” not to be missed.
Great “deals” are there all the time, and quite often the buyer doesn't have the full story.

“deals” are often found on pianos that have been damaged, returned or some that have been rented before to many venues, where different techs "worked" on the instruments trying to get it to sound as they would like to... I have seen pianos that were used by bands in clubs, where the band "tuner" was trying to figure out how to tune the piano with a pair of pliers and the lid was used as a candleholder.
Pianos such as these find their way sometimes to unsuspecting consumers as "great deals" on new pianos and usually feature some "minor scratches" in their finish (there is no need for the dealer to repair the finish until the piano is sold because until this happen he may rent it few more times and it would get scratched again anyway).

What is even more disturbing is that instruments as I just described above are not as easy to "spot" at first look EVEN by a tech. The somewhat more grooved hammers may be slightly filed and the instrument can be re regulated to feel good again and that's it.
Yet the pins that were pulled, pushed and twisted by amatures won't hold in the LONG run as those that were in home or showroom setting and have been maintained by a professional. The hammers may have been "killed" by over voicing and a tech inspecting the piano often won't comment on this.
I guess that the tech feel that there is no reason to do so. After all, the person who asked him to look at the piano must like the sound of it otherwise he wouldn't ask him to look at the instrument in the first place...

The point I'm trying to make is that when people are looking to purchase, first they should look at all their options, and only after finding the right piano look for that "deal".

Good pianos don't turn to pumpkin after midnight and a piano that spent three or four years in a dealer's inventory is quite likely to be there also after next weekend... and if it won't be, then there will be a "deal of a lifetime" on another instrument somewhere else.

Now sometimes there is nothing wrong with buying instruments like these, but other times it is ill advised to do so. What is unfortunate is that the consumer often doesn’t know the truth behind the instrument and the “special” price…That is assuming that in fact there IS something special about the price at all.
Most “deals” are not even that.

"Yer never spoken ther truth morr than sat"!

norbert