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#28182 - 02/24/06 06:27 PM Sold my piano, how do I take the final payment?
music4me2 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 146
Loc: Northern California
Hello,

I sold my Steinway and I received a deposit check. The movers are scheduled for next week. Do I ask the buyer for a cashiers check for the balance ($30K) on that day, or a personal check before? What is standard? Any advice would be greatly appreciated, thank you!

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#28183 - 02/24/06 06:32 PM Re: Sold my piano, how do I take the final payment?
curry Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/17/02
Posts: 3769
Loc: Hamilton Twp, NJ
Ask for a certified bank check.
_________________________
G.Fiore "aka-Curry". Tuner-Technician serving the central NJ, S.E. PA area. b214cm@aol.com Concert tuning, Regulation-voicing specialist.
Dampp-Chaser installations, piano appraisals. PTG S.Jersey Chapter 080.
Bösendorfer 214 # 47,299 214-358

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#28184 - 02/24/06 06:36 PM Re: Sold my piano, how do I take the final payment?
PoStTeNeBrAsLuX Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/31/05
Posts: 2618
Loc: Geneva, Switzerland
music4me2,

Personally I'd do a written contract, signed by both parties (together with copies of ID and proof of address, etc.), stating that funds should be wired to your account and confirmed as irrevocable before the instrument leaves your possession.

- Michael B.
_________________________
There are two rules to success in life: Rule #1. Don't tell people everything you know.

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#28185 - 02/24/06 06:37 PM Re: Sold my piano, how do I take the final payment?
FogVilleLad Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/02/05
Posts: 4680
Loc: San Francisco
music,

Please don't let that instrument out of your sight until the check clears.

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#28186 - 02/24/06 06:48 PM Re: Sold my piano, how do I take the final payment?
ftp Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/10/05
Posts: 2365
Loc: Philadelphia
music4me2,

Google "Bill of Sale" on the internet and find an appropriate legal document for the buyer to sign which relieves you of all legal obligations and also further acknowledges that the buyer owes and has paid you the cost of the piano.

This is in addition to the advice above.

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#28187 - 02/24/06 06:55 PM Re: Sold my piano, how do I take the final payment?
Cy Shuster, RPT Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/18/05
Posts: 3448
Loc: Albuquerque, NM
Even a cashier's check might not actually clear for days. Check with your bank.

--Cy--
_________________________
Cy Shuster, RPT
505-265-4234
www.shusterpiano.com
www.facebook.com/shusterpiano
Albuquerque, New Mexico

Registered Piano Technician
Dampp-Chaser Certified Installer
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#28188 - 02/24/06 07:24 PM Re: Sold my piano, how do I take the final payment?
kokomo61 Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/21/06
Posts: 678
Loc: Herndon, VA
There are so many cashiers' check scams going today, I would ask them to accompany you to the bank for its deposit, and then, not let the piano out of your possession until they verify its authenticity....way too many people have been burned to take any chances.
_________________________
Estonia 190, #6098

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#28189 - 02/24/06 07:37 PM Re: Sold my piano, how do I take the final payment?
LeadFingers Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/19/06
Posts: 178
Loc: Salem Oregon
Google "piano scams"
One of the latest scams involves fraudulent cashiers checks.
The bank processes the phony cashiers check, posts the amount to your account,then some time later (maybe even up to 6 months)when they realize it's phony they hold you liable for the whole amount!!!

I would follow "Post's" advise on the contract,
and set up a new account to have the funds transferred to, before the movers got in the door.
Upon receipt of funds, transfer it to my account
(or stuff it under the mattress) and close the new account.

Much trouble...sure!
Are these people reliable...More than likely!
BUT if you take no precautions and get burned...Need I say more.

LeadFingers
_________________________
"The Oxen are slow, but the Earth is patient" Chuen

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#28190 - 02/24/06 07:43 PM Re: Sold my piano, how do I take the final payment?
music4me2 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 146
Loc: Northern California
Thanks for the quick replies. I called the bank and they told me 1) wire transfer or 2) cashier's check with contact information so that the bank can quickly verify the funds.

I emailed the buyer and told her that we needed to have the funds clear before the piano was moved. I gave her the two options above. If she chooses 2) then I will go to the bank with the check before the movers come & have the funds verified.

Do I need a "new" account to put the money into, or will my current one be okay? Is there a risk in giving out a routing number and account number? They are printed on my checks, so anyone I've paid has access to them.

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#28191 - 02/24/06 07:44 PM Re: Sold my piano, how do I take the final payment?
music4me2 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 146
Loc: Northern California
Thanks for all of your help!

Farewell piano!

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#28192 - 02/24/06 09:04 PM Re: Sold my piano, how do I take the final payment?
ChatNoir Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/19/05
Posts: 1475
Loc: Encino, California
Oooooh, it looks lovely.
_________________________
Some men are music lovers. Others make love without it.

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#28193 - 02/24/06 09:21 PM Re: Sold my piano, how do I take the final payment?
Stevester Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/04/03
Posts: 2851
Loc: New Jersey
I would ask my lawyer.
_________________________
"The true character of a man can be determined by witnessing what he does when no one is watching".

anon

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#28194 - 02/24/06 09:22 PM Re: Sold my piano, how do I take the final payment?
jollyroger Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/23/05
Posts: 848
Loc: Houston, TX
music4me2,
Speak to your banker. It's quite possible they can provide you with an internal "omnibus" account where you can have the money wired to. Then, they'll simply move the money to your account so you'll be able to maintain the level of discretion you desire with the person buying your piano. BTW, what model Steinway is that? Possibly an "S" or an "M"?

Good luck.
Regards,
Roger
_________________________
Music is the wine that fills the cup of silence.
Estonia 190 - Serial # 6561

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#28195 - 02/24/06 09:36 PM Re: Sold my piano, how do I take the final payment?
Piano World Online   blank



Registered: 05/24/01
Posts: 5586
Loc: Parsonsfield, ME (orig. Nahant...
Hopefully, everything is on the up and up.
But...
You should check this out, just in case.
http://www.pianoworld.com/scams.html
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#28196 - 02/24/06 10:22 PM Re: Sold my piano, how do I take the final payment?
Christopher P. Smith Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/13/05
Posts: 1306
Loc: Timonium, MD
VERY nice!
_________________________
Representing Yamaha, Story and Clark, and other fine instruments
Menchey Music Service
Associate Member of PTG
Serving Central Pennsylvania and the Greater Baltimore Area

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#28197 - 02/24/06 11:06 PM Re: Sold my piano, how do I take the final payment?
music4me2 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 146
Loc: Northern California
 Quote:
Originally posted by jollyroger:
BTW, what model Steinway is that? Possibly an "S" or an "M"?[/b]
M.

I think I will play a bit before the movers come on Tuesday...

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#28198 - 02/25/06 07:12 AM Re: Sold my piano, how do I take the final payment?
Stevester Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/04/03
Posts: 2851
Loc: New Jersey
What are you replacing it with?
_________________________
"The true character of a man can be determined by witnessing what he does when no one is watching".

anon

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#28199 - 02/25/06 11:36 AM Re: Sold my piano, how do I take the final payment?
music4me2 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 146
Loc: Northern California
 Quote:
Originally posted by Stevester:
What are you replacing it with? [/b]
Hi, it's undecided still. I'm doing some research & will find a good quality acoustic upright sometime soon, I hope.

I haven't heard back from the buyer about the final payment since I asked for a wire transfer or cashiers check...I suppose it would be an exciting twist of fate if the deal fell through. Then I would get to keep it! :-)

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#28200 - 02/25/06 11:55 AM Re: Sold my piano, how do I take the final payment?
BruceD Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 18018
Loc: Victoria, BC
 Quote:
Originally posted by music4me2:
!
I haven't heard back from the buyer about the final payment since I asked for a wire transfer or cashiers check...I suppose it would be an exciting twist of fate if the deal fell through. Then I would get to keep it! :-) [/b]
If you "would get to keep it :-)", which the word "exciting" and the smiley face suggest is a desirable option, then why are you selling it in the first place?

Regards,
_________________________
BruceD
- - - - -
Estonia 190

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#28201 - 02/25/06 01:11 PM Re: Sold my piano, how do I take the final payment?
music4me2 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 146
Loc: Northern California
Good question! Well, we are in need of the cash to pay off some growing debt due to the costs of therapies for our special needs children (high functioning autism with anxiety disorder and motor delays). I'd love a chance to keep it, though, and I would not be upset if the deal miraculously fell through right now :-). I was offered a reasonable price and decided to take it with much regret & sadness.

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#28202 - 02/25/06 01:18 PM Re: Sold my piano, how do I take the final payment?
jollyroger Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/23/05
Posts: 848
Loc: Houston, TX
Hi music4me2,
You are indeed quite an individual to share such personal information with us. I believe I speak for all in saying that YOU ARE A VERY SPECIAL PERSON and you have our very best wishes, regardless if you sell the piano or not.
Best and warmest regards,
Roger
_________________________
Music is the wine that fills the cup of silence.
Estonia 190 - Serial # 6561

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#28203 - 02/25/06 01:22 PM Re: Sold my piano, how do I take the final payment?
neciebuggs Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/30/04
Posts: 620
Loc: Chula Vista
That is so sad. I applaud you for your dedication to your children. I have 2 ADHD and LD kids, I have a great upright. I hope I never have to make the choice to sell my piano. It would kill me. Hugs and well wishes to you and yours.
_________________________
Denise

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#28204 - 02/25/06 01:47 PM Re: Sold my piano, how do I take the final payment?
ftp Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/10/05
Posts: 2365
Loc: Philadelphia
music4me2,

Your spirit is a wonderful reminder to all of us to embrace with vigor and positive outlook whatever life presents to us.

Your character clearly can not be broken, the character of the buyer is the only thing in question.

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#28205 - 02/25/06 04:45 PM Re: Sold my piano, how do I take the final payment?
ChickGrand Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/02/03
Posts: 3210
Loc: Midwest U.S.
 Quote:
Originally posted by jollyroger:
music4me2,
Speak to your banker. It's quite possible they can provide you with an internal "omnibus" account where you can have the money wired to. Then, they'll simply move the money to your account so you'll be able to maintain the level of discretion you desire with the person buying your piano...[/b]
This is what the banks involved did when I bought my last house for cash with wire transfer. We used just such omnibus accounts at both ends so neither the seller's nor my account numbers appeared to anyone outside our respective banks for a wire transfer. There was no fee for the service either, and more importantly, no question at either end about the funds being legit.

(When I bought the last piano, I didn't want any such questions about certified checks or what not and wanted possession immediately, so I took stacks of the green stuff shoved in every pocket.)

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#28206 - 02/25/06 07:03 PM Re: Sold my piano, how do I take the final payment?
music4me2 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 146
Loc: Northern California
Stacks of the green stuff...wow!

The buyer contacted me and told me that they were leaning toward either a personal check that clears before the moving company shows up, or a cashiers check that I can verify on the moving day. Either way, it sounds fine to me & so I guess the piano is nearly sold unless they change their mind, which I doubt.

Thank you for all of your advice! I'll let you know how it all turns out and what my replacement piano will be!

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#28207 - 02/25/06 07:21 PM Re: Sold my piano, how do I take the final payment?
jollyroger Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/23/05
Posts: 848
Loc: Houston, TX
music4me2,
I don't want to appear pushy, but Frank's earlier email containing the link about frauds, specifically those entailing certified checks should give you great pause.

Since the money is for such an important purpose (especially so), my suggestion would be to err on the side of caution. Speak to your bank and explain the situation. They can arrange for a wire transfer without you revealing any of your personal account information to the buyer. Your bank can make the arrangements with the buyer's bank to effect the wire transfer. As an officer for one of the largest investment banks in the country, I can fully attest that any check (certified or otherwise) may look good on the surface and actually appear to clear; only to find out weeks (even months) later that it was either fraudulent or lacking in sufficient funds to cover it.

I won't pester you any more about this. But I would be woefully remiss if I did not advise you of the risks involved here, especially with something as valuable as a Steinway M. And especially so with regards to what the funds will be used for.

I wish you all the best and I sincerely hope everything works out well for you and your family. You are a VERY SPECIAL PERSON!

Warmest regards,
Roger
_________________________
Music is the wine that fills the cup of silence.
Estonia 190 - Serial # 6561

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#28208 - 02/25/06 07:32 PM Re: Sold my piano, how do I take the final payment?
music4me2 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 146
Loc: Northern California
Roger,

Thank you and everyone at PW for your concern. It is well appreciated and needed. Believe me, I am trying to be cautious. But let's say I receive a personal check in the mail, deposit it in my bank account, and wait for it to clear. If it clears, and then the movers show up, isn't that enough? Obviously I would not let the movers take it if the money was not in my account. I would simply not let them come in and carry it away. Are you saying that even if my bank calls their bank and verifies the funds, and then the funds are officially available in my account, that something could still go very wrong and the funds reversed?

I read the links about fraud and this does not appear at this stage to be like any of those. But like I said, wouldn't it be a miraclous twist of fate to somehow get to keep my Steinway? With the piano in my home now and the deposit check cleared, I can't see a downside...yet.

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#28209 - 02/25/06 07:50 PM Re: Sold my piano, how do I take the final payment?
jollyroger Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/23/05
Posts: 848
Loc: Houston, TX
"Are you saying that even if my bank calls their bank and verifies the funds, and then the funds are officially available in my account, that something could still go very wrong and the funds reversed?"

Yes, this is possible. The funds could be subsequently withdrawn during the clearing period. Scam artists will generally do this by wire to a third party bank where the money is then withdrawn before the "process" catches up with them. There are so many flavors of new check "kiting" schemes, fraudulent check scams etc., introduced on an almost daily basis, that they make my head spin every time I hear of a new one. If you arrange for your bank to have the seller's bank wire the funds, then they are not only "Fed Funds" (same day clearance) but because banks have verifiable routing numbers (found at the bottom of your check next to the account number), they are accoustomed to these types of inter-bank transactions. In fact, it's the mainstay for how banks operate and will give you the peace of mind you deserve. The worst that could happen is that your bank may charge you a wire transfer fee (generally about $25 dollars). If a problem did occur, then the buyer's bank would have to chase the person who bought your piano, NOT YOU. When banks wire funds, it's as good as hard cash. Banks CANNOT wire funds they don't have. This is regulated by the FED. The onus is on them.

This is also the way that importers/exporters work. Before a seller consigns any shipment, the buyer deposits the funds in a bank who then issues a "letter of credit" and segregates the funds. Once the buyer receives the merchandise, his/her bank releases the funds to the seller's respective account.

Call me cautious, but if it were me, this is the way I'd handle it. It's safe, easy and actually faster as the funds clear "same day".

And if the buyer had any problems with this, then that's all the reason you'll ever need to realize that they're not trustworty enough to do business with.

Hope this helps.

My very best,
Roger
_________________________
Music is the wine that fills the cup of silence.
Estonia 190 - Serial # 6561

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#28210 - 02/28/06 06:29 PM Re: Sold my piano, how do I take the final payment?
music4me2 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 146
Loc: Northern California
Just an update. The buyer & the technician hired by the buyer came to check out the Steinway today. He seemed very pleased, said it was "perfect, absolutely perfect."

The buyer gave me a cashier's check & the contact information at her bank. The movers aren't scheduled yet, but could be coming sometime later this week.

Ah, I knew my piano was wonderful :-).

I'm still sad, but finding a replacement will be fun, right?

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#28211 - 02/28/06 06:55 PM Re: Sold my piano, how do I take the final payment?
wolfindmist Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/12/04
Posts: 1478
Loc: In a state full of Volcanoes
Music4me2;

I would take Jollyrodger's reccomendations re. using the wiretransfer. Better to be safe than sorry on something as big as this transaction is for your family. Please take a gander at Jollyrodger's post to you ....

You wrote:
"Are you saying that even if my bank calls their bank and verifies the funds, and then the funds are officially available in my account, that something could still go very wrong and the funds reversed?"

1st part of Jolly Rodger's reply:
Yes, this is possible. The funds could be subsequently withdrawn during the clearing period. Scam artists will generally do this by wire to a third party bank where the money is then withdrawn before the "process" catches up with them. There are so many flavors of new check "kiting" schemes, fraudulent check scams etc., introduced on an almost daily basis, that they make my head spin every time I hear of a new one. If you arrange for your bank to have the seller's bank wire the funds, then they are not only "Fed Funds" (same day clearance) but because banks have verifiable routing numbers (found at the bottom of your check next to the account number), they are accoustomed to these types of inter-bank transactions. In fact, it's the mainstay for how banks operate and will give you the peace of mind you deserve. The worst that could happen is that your bank may charge you a wire transfer fee (generally about $25 dollars). If a problem did occur, then the buyer's bank would have to chase the person who bought your piano, NOT YOU. When banks wire funds, it's as good as hard cash. Banks CANNOT wire funds they don't have. This is regulated by the FED. The onus is on them.

Jollyrodger's advice makes good sense....
given that there are som many people out there who make a living scamming people out of their precious possessions and money.
Wolf
_________________________
I have my own weapon of mass destruction in the form of a "teenage" German Shepherd. Anything she spies and can get ahold of is fair game.

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