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#285510 - 09/25/07 05:28 AM Need advice on Yamaha C1M or Boston GP163, thx
iamgoobie Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 08/16/07
Posts: 11
Loc: Hong Kong
Hi everyone,

Have been here earlier on asking about Boston grands and now....have come to the final stage of choosing between a Yamaha C1M (a newly refined model based on the C1 ) and Boston GP163. They are just an inch difference - C1M: 5'3/ GP163: 5'4 and just enough to fit into one corner of my house....in HK. I wonder if anyone would have any suggestions as to which one is better or more reliable. I've tried both and found both equally impressive in terms of tone and touch. Please advise and many thanks!

BTW, does anyone know the difference between Yamaha C1L and C1M? I've looked at both specs and found similar except the white and black keys are different in materials used. Please correct me if I'm wrong.
iamgoobie

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#285511 - 09/30/07 03:15 AM Re: Need advice on Yamaha C1M or Boston GP163, thx
Pianomadam Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/18/07
Posts: 416
Loc: Southern United States
I am not sure if the C1 has a soft-fall fallboard (it does not slam on your fingers), but that would be one difference. Quality-wise they are both fine pianos. The Boston does have a wider soundboard for the same size Yamaha, as they have a wider rim tail than the C-series Yamahas. Boston tapers the soundboard which gives more flexibility and potential to the soundboard. The rim of the Boston is thicker and thus gives a little more projection. There are more details I could get into but I don't want to be long-winded. Keep in mind, Steinway & Sons' (they design the Boston piano) passion is pianos...that's all they do. Yamaha builds a lot of products (boats, engines, motorcycles, drums, etc...) and thus has its focus on multiple things. Good luck with your decision!
_________________________
PianoMadam

Family of Steinway-Designed Pianos (Steinway & Sons, Boston, Essex) Dealer

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#285512 - 09/30/07 04:24 AM Re: Need advice on Yamaha C1M or Boston GP163, thx
schwammerl Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/16/06
Posts: 2011
Loc: Belgium
 Quote:
Yamaha builds a lot of products (boats, engines, motorcycles, drums, etc...) and thus has its focus on multiple things.
Let's at least stay serious and fair. Yamaha is as dedicated to piano bulding as any piano manufacturer can be. Making pianos since about 1900, their acoustic piano devision, as a completely independent business unit within Yamaha Global, has set standards in piano manufacturing in many areas (http://www.yamaha.co.jp/english/product/piano/kakegawa/index.html)

And if one wants to play that "dirty" game any how then I could say Steinway & Sons, which outsources the production of two of their brands -Boston & Essex - to Kawai, P.R resp., is part of Steinway Musical Instruments Inc., which ownes amongst S&S also band and percussion instruments and many other activities (http://www.steinwaymusical.com/brands.php). So is there here the also a lack of focus?

So that quoted statement is complete nonsense! Btw, I cannot be supected as being partial to Yamaha: I never owned a Yamaha piano and am not going to won one in the near future.

 Quote:
BTW, does anyone know the difference between Yamaha C1L and C1M?
iamgoobie, you could have a look at: http://www.yamaha-europe.com/yamaha_euro...anos/index.html

schwammerl.

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#285513 - 09/30/07 04:01 PM Re: Need advice on Yamaha C1M or Boston GP163, thx
iamgoobie Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 08/16/07
Posts: 11
Loc: Hong Kong
How thankful I am to both of you for taking the time to offer your advice, Pianomadam and schwammerl! Today, I went to another branch of the piano shop that sells both brands and had a really good try on both again. Sadly and honestly, they aren't really my cup of tea. Next to them was a Petrof NIV (I suppose it's a newer version of PIV) and I played on it and instantly fell in love with it. My Gosh! What a difference! The touch was fantastic compared to the blurry touch of Boston GP163 and stiffly touch of Yamaha C1M.

Having done mths of window-shopping for the right grand, I'm pretty tired of having to do that again. I'd say Petrof is going to be my cup of tea for this moment.

Now, I have a few doubts and hope there are experts here who could advise on them.

Q1. What is the difference between the Petrof NIV and PIV? The dealer told me that the NIV is an improved version of PIV in quality and so on. Is he right? I've heard that in the last 5 to 10 years, I suppose, the quality and reliability of Petrof uprights and grands are pretty unfit. From which year onwards are the Petrofs being improved?

Q2. As my house (a part of it) is not spacious enough to accomodate a P/NIV, I could still place it there if I want to but frankly, there's hardly any room for walking in and out. I wonder if the Petrof N/PV would be a better choice? Has anyone tried or owned a Petrof N/PV? What's it like? Is it worse than the N/PIV?

I'd really appreciate if anyone could spare time to offer your advice on both versions N and P and IV and V. Please, please help! Thx soooo much again for advising,everyone.

iamgoobie T_T

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#285514 - 09/30/07 08:19 PM Re: Need advice on Yamaha C1M or Boston GP163, thx
Craigen Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/01/05
Posts: 1815
Loc: West Coast
I am confused with all the letter prefixes and suffixes you are asking about. All my experience is in the U.S. There may be some sub-models not distributed there.

Are these pianos new or used? Often manufacturers will add a letter to delineate an itteration modification to an existing model in their line up. Most have ceased this process in recent years.

Here is my recommendation. Source the actual serial number to find the year of the build. Newer pianos will always incorporate evolutionary changes that don't warranty a new "model" designation. Nearly all brand and models of pianos improve as time marches on.

The Petrof model IV is a 5'8". Bigger pianos nearly always have a bigger sound. The Petrof is European and will have that charastic European sound. The Yamaha and the Boston are Asian and will have that charastic Asian piano sound. These are distinct genres in sound. Not better or worse, just different.

The only era when the Petrof pianos were poorer quality was during the Soviet era. This technically ended in 1989. It took several years for the Petrof family to regain complete ownership and retool the factory for moden manufacturing up to Western standards of quality and performance. Petrof's came into their own after about 1995.
_________________________
Piano Technician, member Piano Technicians Guild.

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#285515 - 10/01/07 12:56 AM Re: Need advice on Yamaha C1M or Boston GP163, thx
Axtremus Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/29/03
Posts: 6150
iamgoobie,

I'm very curious about the Hong Kong market. What are the prices like for the pianos you're considering? Are the prices for Yamaha C1, Boston GP163, and Petrof IV all about the same on Hong Kong?
_________________________
www.PianoRecital.org -- my piano recordings

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#285516 - 10/01/07 01:25 AM Re: Need advice on Yamaha C1M or Boston GP163, thx
packa Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/05/05
Posts: 1397
Loc: Dallas, TX
 Quote:
Originally posted by Pianomadam:
Keep in mind, Steinway & Sons' (they design the Boston piano) passion is pianos...that's all they do. Yamaha builds a lot of products (boats, engines, motorcycles, drums, etc...) and thus has its focus on multiple things.[/b]
Gosh, this is sleazy.
_________________________
Paul Buchanan
Estonia L168 #1718

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#285517 - 10/01/07 04:33 AM Re: Need advice on Yamaha C1M or Boston GP163, thx
Pianomadam Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/18/07
Posts: 416
Loc: Southern United States
"And if one wants to play that "dirty" game any how then I could say Steinway & Sons, which outsources the production of two of their brands -Boston & Essex - to Kawai, P.R resp., is part of Steinway Musical Instruments Inc., which ownes amongst S&S also band and percussion instruments and many other activities"

---Good to hear from you, Schwammerl. I would not consider it a "dirty game" to state what is a fact. Do you see the Steinway & Sons, Boston, or Essex name on anything but a piano? Iamgoobie was asking for some differentials and I, thus, gave him/her some. Good day...

Iamgoobie, I would certainly encourage you to try more than just one or two of the respective models you are considering. As you may know, each piano has its own character and it is worth trying several before dismissing one model or the entire brand. Just my 2 cents! Have fun in your search!
_________________________
PianoMadam

Family of Steinway-Designed Pianos (Steinway & Sons, Boston, Essex) Dealer

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#285518 - 10/01/07 07:28 AM Re: Need advice on Yamaha C1M or Boston GP163, thx
schwammerl Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/16/06
Posts: 2011
Loc: Belgium
 Quote:
---Good to hear from you, Schwammerl. I would not consider it a "dirty game" to state what is a fact. Do you see the Steinway & Sons, Boston, or Essex name on anything but a piano? Iamgoobie was asking for some differentials and I, thus, gave him/her some. Good day...
What disturbed me was the statement:
 Quote:
Yamaha builds a lot of products (boats, engines, motorcycles, drums, etc...) and thus has its focus on multiple things.
, insinuating the Yamaha piano devision may be distracted from doing what they are supposed to do - building pianos - just because they are part of a larger corporation with multiple diverisfied activities!

The fact that Yamaha corportaion is using just one name "Yamaha" to brand all their products -whether pianos, motocycles or drums - is pointless. This is just a global strategic marketing choice and Steinwaymusical has chosen to have multiple brand names (Steinway, Boston, Essex, Conn-Selmer..), that's fine. Whenever possible also Steinway tries to draw benefits from the Steinway brandname recognition, and that's fine too: "the Family of Steinway Designed Pianos" (which stands for S&S, Boston, Essex).

Although the various business units whithin a global company may be completely independent, the corporate structure will have to take strategic decisions all the time. But as the S&S workforce is not involded in the production of e.g. band or percusion isntruments, so is also the workforce in Yamaha's piano factories not tweaking on motorcycles, thus leading to a lack of focus.

schwammerl.

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#285519 - 10/01/07 12:19 PM Re: Need advice on Yamaha C1M or Boston GP163, thx
Axtremus Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/29/03
Posts: 6150
 Quote:
Originally posted by Pianomadam:

--- ... Do you see the Steinway & Sons, Boston, or Essex name on anything but a piano?[/b]
Yes, please see http://www.steinwaylyngdorf.com/

The "Steinway & Sons" name now also appears on a hi-fi sound system. \:\)
_________________________
www.PianoRecital.org -- my piano recordings

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#285520 - 10/01/07 01:44 PM Re: Need advice on Yamaha C1M or Boston GP163, thx
Keith D Kerman Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/12/03
Posts: 3262
Loc: Gaithersburg, MD (Washington D...
 Quote:
Originally posted by Pianomadam:
Keep in mind, Steinway & Sons' (they design the Boston piano) passion is pianos...that's all they do. Yamaha builds a lot of products (boats, engines, motorcycles, drums, etc...) and thus has its focus on multiple things.[/b]
 Quote:
Originally posted by Pianomadam:

---I would not consider it a "dirty game" to state what is a fact. Do you see the Steinway & Sons, Boston, or Essex name on anything but a piano? Iamgoobie was asking for some differentials and I, thus, gave him/her some. Good day...
[/b]
Pianomadam,

http://steinwaycollections.com/catalog.asp?CategoryID=2126

Please explain to us how Steinway pianos have deteriorated, since they have lost their focus and are making umbrellas, golf equipment, sunglasses, bags, clothing etc. All with the Steinway name and/or logo.
_________________________
Keith D Kerman
PianoCraft
Rebuilding & Sales of vintage and pre-owned Steinway and Mason & Hamlin
New Steingraeber, Estonia, Charles R. Walter, Brodmann, Feurich
www.pianocraft.net
http://www.youtube.com/user/pianocraftchannel/videos

keith@pianocraft.net 888-840-5460

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#285521 - 10/01/07 02:53 PM Re: Need advice on Yamaha C1M or Boston GP163, thx
Axtremus Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/29/03
Posts: 6150
Oooo! Good one, Keith! I forgot about those Steinway and Sons paraphernalia! \:D
_________________________
www.PianoRecital.org -- my piano recordings

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#285522 - 10/01/07 03:44 PM Re: Need advice on Yamaha C1M or Boston GP163, thx
Pianomadam Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/18/07
Posts: 416
Loc: Southern United States
"insinuating the Yamaha piano devision may be distracted from doing what they are supposed to do - building pianos - just because they are part of a larger corporation with multiple diverisfied activities!"

---The problem does lie in the multiple focuses of the company and how keeping investors satisfied ultimately ends up hurting the product (e.g. you have a bad year in piano sales so you pour more money into motorcycles). Everyone knows that Yamaha is more of a marketing company than it is an R&D company.


Axtremus & Keith:

Oh, come on...you know that making a stereo system and having some clothes/pins to advertise your product is totally different than manufacturing multiple genres of products and trying to be an expert in all of those genres.
_________________________
PianoMadam

Family of Steinway-Designed Pianos (Steinway & Sons, Boston, Essex) Dealer

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#285523 - 10/01/07 04:28 PM Re: Need advice on Yamaha C1M or Boston GP163, thx
Piano*Dad Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/12/05
Posts: 10297
Loc: Williamsburg, VA
 Quote:
Oh, come on
What an apt self-diagnosis! \:D ;\)

In any thread that mentions an Essex or Boston piano your posts almost invariably are a sell job. You present 'facts' that often aren't (they're opinions instead), or which are clearly selective. We understand your point of view, but a sales rep doesn't garner much credibility here by so obviously sticking to the sales training sheet.
_________________________
Grotrian 192 #156455

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#285524 - 10/01/07 07:02 PM Re: Need advice on Yamaha C1M or Boston GP163, thx
Keith D Kerman Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/12/03
Posts: 3262
Loc: Gaithersburg, MD (Washington D...
 Quote:
Originally posted by Pianomadam:

---The problem does lie in the multiple focuses of the company and how keeping investors satisfied ultimately ends up hurting the product (e.g. you have a bad year in piano sales so you pour more money into motorcycles). Everyone knows that Yamaha is more of a marketing company than it is an R&D company.
[/b]
Sounds a lot like Steinway.
I have to say that nothing says sales weasel more than putting down Yamaha pianos not based on what is missing from a particular model, but because another division of their company makes an unrelated product.
Do you let your prospects know that Steinway would make better pianos if only they were more focused on pianos rather than also having another division of the company making band instruments? Or perhaps you inform your prospects about how Steinway is a publicly traded company and "how keeping investors satisfied ultimately ends up hurting the product."
Every post you make, PianoMadam, sets a new standard in worthlessness. And, I know your answer will be " give me an example of my worthless posts". Well, we are all waiting for you to give an example of a thoughtful post that isn't some rehashed nonsense out of the Steinway/Boston/Essex sales training or from a brochure. It is getting old. Also, please don't play the "poor me, everyone hates me because I sell new Steinways." That is old and transparent as well. It is not what you sell, it is the garbage you write here.
_________________________
Keith D Kerman
PianoCraft
Rebuilding & Sales of vintage and pre-owned Steinway and Mason & Hamlin
New Steingraeber, Estonia, Charles R. Walter, Brodmann, Feurich
www.pianocraft.net
http://www.youtube.com/user/pianocraftchannel/videos

keith@pianocraft.net 888-840-5460

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#285525 - 10/01/07 11:44 PM Re: Need advice on Yamaha C1M or Boston GP163, thx
Axtremus Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/29/03
Posts: 6150
 Quote:
Keith D Kerman wrote:

... Also, please don't play the "poor me, everyone hates me because I sell new Steinways." That is old and transparent as well. It is not what you sell, it is the garbage you write here.
Remember Luke's Dad? Now he was a good Steinway salesman. But he sells Yamaha now! \:D

BTW, I looked up Yamaha's 2007 financial report and Steinway's 2006 10k filing. I tried to compare their marketing and R&D expenditures, but couldn't because (1) Yamaha reports R&D expenditure but does not report marketing expenditure, and (2) Steinway reports marketing expenditure but doesn't report R&D expenditure.
_________________________
www.PianoRecital.org -- my piano recordings

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#285526 - 10/02/07 12:20 AM Re: Need advice on Yamaha C1M or Boston GP163, thx
Jeff Bauer Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/28/03
Posts: 1718
Loc: Los Angeles
Iamgoobie:

Here in America Yamaha has redesigned the C1 and C2 models to be identical in construction and features to the C3 and up. I don't know if this is the same model you are referring to (I suspect it is), because Yamaha doesn't have an L or M designation on the models for North America. I will list the changes to the new C1 here, which perhaps you can verify with your dealer in Hong kong:

- Stronger plate flange
- Harder rim materials (not sure what exactly, my guess is more maple in the rim), Yamaha lists the benefit as giving the piano a more powerful tone and better sustain
- New music desk style (cosmetic)
- Brass lid prop cups (cosmetic)
- Smoother inner rim (cosmetic)
- New plate color (cosmetic)
- Maple bridge caps
- Ivorite keytops
- Wood composite sharps
- Vertically laminated bridges

We just got one in and it is an improvement over previous C models.


In response to PM's assertion that Yamaha doesn't focus all of it's 5 billion dollar company into pianos, all I have to say is:

NO DUH.


Well, prehaps a little more:
You show me any piano manufacturer that reports an annual gross sale figure of over 5 billion, soely from the sale of acoustic pianos. Of the 150k (rough number I recall from a trade magazine) new pianos reportedly sold in the US in 2006, even a manuafacturer with 100% market value would have to have sold EVERY ONE of those instruments with an average wholesale selling price of 33.4k.

fOr those who are unaware...
Yamaha has been building pianos since 1900, and it wasn't until 1954 that Yamaha started to build anything other than musical instruments (motorcycles). Before that, they were strictly organs, guitars, and pianos. You look at any Yamaha motorcycle emblem, and it's 3 tuning forks in a circle (don't tell that to the rider unless you feel like holding a steak to your face).

Anynone interested in learning more about Yamaha, it's history, or products, should visit their global gateway:
http://www.global.yamaha.com/about/index.html
_________________________
Jeff Bauer | Keyboard Concepts

Yamaha | Schimmel | Bösendorfer | Knabe | Seiler | Restored Steinway

BauerHouse Productions

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#285527 - 10/02/07 03:16 AM Re: Need advice on Yamaha C1M or Boston GP163, thx
iamgoobie Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 08/16/07
Posts: 11
Loc: Hong Kong
A million thanks to ***EVERYONE*** who took time to share your views here! This is amazing! I'm sooooo grateful to you all! I've really learnt sooooo much about pianos here. Keep up the PASSION you have for music & piano! With limits to budget, accomodation and consideration to very high humidity in HK, Yamaha C1 is so far the only choice I have. But as i've mentioned earlier, I didn't quite like the stiffly touch. Boston is definitely out of my list...sadly, given all the comments and personal experiences I've heard through friends, technicians, professors and read online. As I've tried the Petrof P/N IV, I'd say it's the best among the three. But sadly again, P/N IV is a little too big for my house.

Now, the only choice I've is the P/N V version.
I'd say if nothing better pops up in the next few weeks, Petrof P/N V is the deal! If anyone has tried or owned this model, do you mind sharing your views on it? THX again to you all for your advice. Hope u are all enjoying your life off line too!

iamgoobie

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#285528 - 10/02/07 05:05 AM Re: Need advice on Yamaha C1M or Boston GP163, thx
Pianomadam Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/18/07
Posts: 416
Loc: Southern United States
"BTW, I looked up Yamaha's 2007 financial report and Steinway's 2006 10k filing. I tried to compare their marketing and R&D expenditures, but couldn't because (1) Yamaha reports R&D expenditure but does not report marketing expenditure, and (2) Steinway reports marketing expenditure but doesn't report R&D expenditure"

---so, then, I guess this proves nothing until you are able to get both figures from both companies. Also, isn't comparing two different years statistically unreliable?
_________________________
PianoMadam

Family of Steinway-Designed Pianos (Steinway & Sons, Boston, Essex) Dealer

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#285529 - 10/02/07 05:14 AM Re: Need advice on Yamaha C1M or Boston GP163, thx
Pianomadam Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/18/07
Posts: 416
Loc: Southern United States
"In any thread that mentions an Essex or Boston piano your posts almost invariably are a sell job"

---what would you have me do instead, PianoDad? That's like telling Tiger Woods not to show up to a Nike Conference because you want people to do their own research on what shoes to wear.
_________________________
PianoMadam

Family of Steinway-Designed Pianos (Steinway & Sons, Boston, Essex) Dealer

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#285530 - 10/02/07 05:30 AM Re: Need advice on Yamaha C1M or Boston GP163, thx
Axtremus Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/29/03
Posts: 6150
 Quote:
Originally posted by Pianomadam:

---so, then, I guess this proves nothing until you are able to get both figures from both companies. Also, isn't comparing two different years statistically unreliable?
Oh... I didn't mean to imply that it proves anything. I was simply disappointed that I couldn't get Yamaha's marketing numbers and Steinway's R&D numbers. I am quite willing to believe that Steinway had appreciable R&D expenditures recently, given their recent tweaks for Model B and resurrections of Models A and Model O in their NY factory. \:\)

If you have Steinway's R&D numbers, though, do share. Same for any one who might have Yamaha's marketing numbers for musical instruments.

Comparing different years are actually OK, in this case, because Yamaha's financial year and Steinway's financial year starts in different quarters (six months overlap, I think), and I only meant to compare marketing and R&D expenses as percentages of sales, not comparing absolute numbers. \:\)
_________________________
www.PianoRecital.org -- my piano recordings

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#285531 - 10/02/07 05:34 AM Re: Need advice on Yamaha C1M or Boston GP163, thx
Pianomadam Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/18/07
Posts: 416
Loc: Southern United States
"I have to say that nothing says sales weasel more than putting down Yamaha pianos not based on what is missing from a particular model, but because another division of their company makes an unrelated product"

---Hi Keith, good to hear from you. Sales "weasel"..ouch! As I have stated before, this (focus of a company) IS a huge issue. To minimize it is beyond me. On one hand you have a Steinway-designed Boston piano, designed by THE NAME in pianos, and on the other hand you have a Yamaha C-series. I'm sorry, but serious musicians are going for the Boston much more often than for the Yamaha C-series. If your experience shows you otherwise, so be it. I can only speak for my store.


"Every post you make, PianoMadam, sets a new standard in worthlessness. And, I know your answer will be " give me an example of my worthless posts"

---Yikes! Someone really is having a bad day. The stronger the statement the more it needs to be backed up with specific evidence. In the scientific community statements like yours would be thrown out and completely discredited without clear examples. This is especially the case for someone such as yourself whom is obviously biased, never supporting my statements (when they are deemed to be worthy by yourself) but, instead, criticizing unconstructively due to the knowledge that I sell a different product.


"Well, we are all waiting for you to give an example of a thoughtful post that isn't some rehashed nonsense out of the Steinway/Boston/Essex sales training or from a brochure"

---examples please! You are coming dangerously close to being, in the scientific world, an outcast!
_________________________
PianoMadam

Family of Steinway-Designed Pianos (Steinway & Sons, Boston, Essex) Dealer

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#285532 - 10/02/07 05:57 AM Re: Need advice on Yamaha C1M or Boston GP163, thx
U S A P T Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/20/06
Posts: 1645
Loc: An Indiana University
You are a real piece of work there PianoMadam.
_________________________
Full-Time Music/Entrepreneurship Major: (Why not compose music AND businesses?)
Former Piano Industry Professional
************
Steinway M
Roland Atelier AT90R
************
All Posts are Snarky Unless Otherwise Noted
************

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#285533 - 10/02/07 06:52 AM Re: Need advice on Yamaha C1M or Boston GP163, thx
turandot Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/27/07
Posts: 7089
Loc: torrance, CA
(predictably) from Pianomadam]
 Quote:
On one hand you have a Steinway-designed Boston piano, designed by THE NAME in pianos, and on the other hand you have a Yamaha C-series. I'm sorry, but serious musicians are going for the Boston much more often than for the Yamaha C-series.
Congratulations, Pianomadam!

You have saved others the bother of giving examples of a perfectly worthless post by providing yet another sterling example on your own. 'THE NAME' in pianos is right up there with the 'bragging rights', the 'Ooooh, you have a Steinway factor', and the 'doctors prefer Steinway' line.

'Serious musicians going for Boston' is laughable as well. What is a serious musician? Is it anyone who goes for a Boston? Does buying a Boston prove one's seriousness? Are musicians who buy a Yamaha C series frivolous pretenders who don't know from diddly about the Steinway mystique? Is that your role in life, to pass judgment on who is a serious musician and who is not?

You have the rare talent to offend and insult everyone on all sides of a question. To non-Steinway owners, you are no doubt highly irritating, but to Steinway owners you are more like a plague on their house.

And then to put a bow on the package, you have the gall to spout this gibberish and simultaneously talk about standards of proof in the scientific community.

Steinway doesn't need this drivel. Steinway doesn't need you. You should button your lips and let Steinway pianos speak for themselves.
_________________________
Will Johnny Come Marching Home?
The fate of the modern wartime soldier

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#285534 - 10/02/07 11:41 AM Re: Need advice on Yamaha C1M or Boston GP163, thx
Piano*Dad Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/12/05
Posts: 10297
Loc: Williamsburg, VA
 Quote:
You have saved others the bother of giving examples of a perfectly worthless post by providing yet another sterling example on your own.


Thanks William, that made my morning!


PianoMadam,

You might want to examine the posting history of a number of people here. Rich Galassini is one, as is Keith, who is not shy about expressing his irritation above \:D . No one expects you to throw rocks at the line of products you represent. On the other hand, the best examples of sales representatives who post here rarely tout their own wares. And when say anything about a model they carry or a change in one of their products, they are usually very circumspect about it. These posters also rarely, if ever, engage in hyperbole, and they have too much respect for the industry and the instrument to say anything negative about other makers absent very strong evidence or very strong provocation.


Iamgoobie,

I forget whether you have actually played the Petrof V, or just the IV. I have not played the V. For my tastes, the model IV's that I have played have varied quite a lot in tone and touch, and that scared me. Also, for my personal taste a 5'3" size is too small to appeal to me. I find that grand piano scale designs lose their appeal at much under 6'. The Mason AA may be one of the only exceptions. I'm also wondering if the Yamaha that you played was not in really good condition. The Yamaha action is usually very consistent. I would not describe it as stiff or sticky. That has been more my experience on the Petrofs, actually. The new Yamaha C series pianos that I have played have had very responsive actions, even the C2 size which is not my favorite.
_________________________
Grotrian 192 #156455

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#285535 - 10/02/07 12:12 PM Re: Need advice on Yamaha C1M or Boston GP163, thx
PoStTeNeBrAsLuX Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/31/05
Posts: 2618
Loc: Geneva, Switzerland
turandot:
You have the rare talent to offend and insult everyone on all sides of a question. To non-Steinway owners, you are no doubt highly irritating, but to Steinway owners you are more like a plague on their house.[/b]

Well said.

-Michael B.
_________________________
There are two rules to success in life: Rule #1. Don't tell people everything you know.

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#285536 - 10/02/07 02:27 PM Re: Need advice on Yamaha C1M or Boston GP163, thx
Steve Cohen Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 10346
Loc: Maryland/DC/No. VA
PianoMadam,

Go to the bottom of this post and click on the word "Posts". It will show you my last 50 posts. In my stores I carry Samick products along with Petrof, and Kawai digitals.

I think you will see that what I carry has little effect on how I respond to posters questions. That isn't to say that I haven't tauted our lines, after all, I choose to carry them because I felt they were "best buys" in their price range. But, I consistantly support considering other brands as well.

You, on the other hand, focus strictly on Steinway, Boston and Essex. And, you do that poorly!
_________________________
Piano Industry Consultant- http://www.linkedin.com/pub/steve-cohen/6/b92/b80

Consultant & Contributing Editor - Acoustic & Digital Piano Buyer

Jasons Music
Maryland/DC/No. VA
Since 1937.

www.jasonsmusic.com
My postings, unless stated otherwise, are my personal opinions, not those of my clients.

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#285537 - 10/03/07 04:41 AM Re: Need advice on Yamaha C1M or Boston GP163, thx
Pianomadam Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/18/07
Posts: 416
Loc: Southern United States
"'THE NAME' in pianos is right up there with the 'bragging rights', the 'Ooooh, you have a Steinway factor', and the 'doctors prefer Steinway' line."

---In my experience, these are the reactions I do get from most customers and, just people in general. I am not sure if you are in the piano business, Turandot, but if you are I'm shocked that this has not been the experience of many, if not most, of your customers. From the concert stage, which piano do you see up there being played by the concert pianists more than any other? The STATISTICS show: 98%, as of 2006. Yah...I think that qualifies as THE NAME.


"You have the rare talent to offend and insult everyone on all sides of a question"

---Statistically-speaking, there are just a few that repeatedly attack or nit-pick my comments on this forum. Most do not. I would not consider that "everyone". Others will sometimes jump on the bandwagon of the "finger-waggers" for whatever motivation they have. Sometimes, I admit, I have deserved some of the criticism. When I make a mistake I'll admit it. Let's not go overboard, however, Turandot.


"You should button your lips and let Steinway pianos speak for themselves"

---Sorry, no can do. Few others are really sticking up for the product on this forum. I don't know if others have attempted and left or what the deal is. I wouldn't blame them. This forum gives me a chance to inform others of the "not rated highly in Larry Fine" and "priced highly because of the Steinway name" Essex and Boston pianos that oh, so many, are ready to downplay as simply "marketing tools of Steinway".
_________________________
PianoMadam

Family of Steinway-Designed Pianos (Steinway & Sons, Boston, Essex) Dealer

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#285538 - 10/03/07 12:35 PM Re: Need advice on Yamaha C1M or Boston GP163, thx
Toddler2 Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/09/04
Posts: 760
Loc: Hillsborough, NC
 Quote:
---Sorry, no can do. Few others are really sticking up for the product on this forum.
That is too funny! How can you not see that you just made Steinways sound like pianos which are unable to stand on their own merits?

The reasons so many Steinways are used on concert stages is as much a product of their marketing as it is of their quality. They make a great piano, true, but they also do everything they can to prevent pianists from performing on anything other than a Steinway. Despite Steinways predatory actions, several of the greatest who can make choices despite Steinways's behavior, have still chosen to perform on Fazioli or Bosendorfers. It's also interesting that when they have the money, they are also buying them. And while Steinway dominates the stage in the US because of the ready supply of D's available to any performing pianist who becomes a "Steinway Artist", the variety is much greater in Europe and elsewhere where Steinway can't withhold the only available piano in so many places.

from the NYTimes:
 Quote:

"''It was enormously vindictive,'' Mr. Ohlsson said recently about the aftermath of his comment, on the eve of a 1972 Alice Tully Hall concert, that Bösendorfer was ''the Rolls-Royce of pianos.''

Steinway swiftly retaliated by trucking away the concert grand Mr. Ohlsson was about to play. Mr. Ohlsson ended up performing on a Bösendorfer borrowed at the 11th hour, but Steinway barred him from using its instruments for some time.
"
So if Steinway provides the only adequate piano to 98% of the venues around the US, how many pianists can afford not to play them?

 Quote:
"According to Steinway, some 1,300 performing concert pianists in the world, more than 90 percent, are now formally associated with the company, including Mr. Ashkenazy, Emanuel Ax, Murray Perahia and Mitsuko Uchida.They all own Steinways and are expected to perform exclusively on the company's instruments. Affiliation as a Steinway artist ensures performers access to an array of instruments for recitals and recordings.

more examples?

 Quote:

Angela Hewitt, a leading interpreter of Bach, was removed from the Steinway roster two years ago after she purchased and performed on a Fazioli, even though her recordings to that point had all been made on Steinways. ''It's a shame that it gets a bit dirty,'' she said. ''A lot of people don't know there are wonderful alternatives out there. The Steinway is beautiful, but it doesn't give you the subtlety or the finesse that you get from a Fazioli.''

Nikolai Demidenko, who was also dropped from the Steinway roster, asked, ''Did anybody ever complain to Paganini that he used a Guarneri and not the Stradivari violin?''

Complain is just what Steinway did when another of its artists, Louis Lortie, performed on a Fazioli -- to rave reviews -- at Carnegie Hall last November. ''I was shocked to see him playing the Fazioli,'' said Mr. Goodrich, of Steinway. The firm gives leeway to artists when a Steinway is unavailable or when the one at hand is in poor condition. But this was certainly not the case at Carnegie Hall. Mr. Lortie could have had his pick from a bank of superlative concert grands at Steinway's flagship showroom, just across the street. ''I don't want anyone on our roster,'' Mr. Goodrich said, ''who doesn't want to play the Steinway exclusively.''

??? exclusively ??? Seems like Steinway is doing everything they can to prevent their "Steinway Artists" from having the freedom of choice to play the piano they want.

This is the last blurb I'll quote, because I like the last line of it:

 Quote:
While concert artists say they are pleased that competition drives up standards, some still feel that Steinway's hegemony has left them with too little choice, since they believe that certain repertory sounds better on another instrument. ''It is brainwashing,'' said Andras Schiff of Steinway's market strategy. He went on several European stages last winter playing both a Bösendorfer and a Steinway in the same concert, changing with the piece. He added, ''It's as if the car industry were such that everybody was obligated to drive a Mercedes.''

Valentina Lisitsa, a Ukrainian-born pianist who prefers Bösendorfers, said she had encountered roadblocks to playing one at some of her American concerts. ''They created all kinds of difficulties,'' Ms. Lisitsa said of the response to her insistence on playing a Bösendorfer with the Atlanta Symphony in October. ''Steinway tried everything to get me to play Steinway, including some Steinway representative waiting for me in my dressing room right before the concert and asking me in not a very polite way why would I choose to play another piano.''

Steinway's Southeast district sales manager, Victor Geiger, confirmed that he spoke to Ms. Lisitsa in Atlanta. ''Whenever an artist is in the vicinity, I always introduce myself and ask whether we can do anything,'' he said. ''We believe an artist has the right to play the instrument that best suits their needs.'' The administration of the Atlanta Symphony, which owns two Steinway recital instruments, denied that there was any difficulty.

Bösendorfer established a new foothold last June when it became the official piano of the Blue Note, the famous jazz club in Greenwich Village. A news release announcing the Blue Note's decision included an endorsement from the pianist Billy Taylor, a Steinway artist who had played a Bösendorfer at the club.

''Steinway went ballistic,'' said Steven Bensusan, the club's owner, and another release was issued without Mr. Taylor's name.

''I liked that particular piano,'' Mr. Taylor said after the switch. ''But I prefer the Steinway.''

I don't know if Mr. Taylor was presured to say that, but I do know there will be many artists who really do prefer the Steinway to the Bosendorfer. Of course, given equal access to Steinway, Fazioli, Steingraeber, Bosendorfer, and others, we all know it wouldn't be close to 90%.
_________________________
M&H AA (2006)

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#285539 - 10/03/07 02:12 PM Re: Need advice on Yamaha C1M or Boston GP163, thx
turandot Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/27/07
Posts: 7089
Loc: torrance, CA
 Quote:
"You should button your lips and let Steinway pianos speak for themselves"

---Sorry, no can do. Few others are really sticking up for the product on this forum. I don't know if others have attempted and left or what the deal is. I wouldn't blame them. This forum gives me a chance to inform others of the "not rated highly in Larry Fine" and "priced highly because of the Steinway name" Essex and Boston pianos that oh, so many, are ready to downplay as simply "marketing tools of Steinway".
Pianomadam,

Do you really feel that Steinway products need someone to stick up for them here? If so, you should by all means do that. But I think it would benefit Steinway if you chose a different tack. Members here are more apt to be persuaded by fact than by such statements as "Serious pianists are going for Boston, and not for Yamaha".

If you defend Steinway with hype and image, objective readers will begin to wonder if Steinway is more image than substance at this point, and if it has abandoned product quality for marketing hype. Surely that is the last thing you want.

To answer your question, I do not sell pianos. I respond to your posts as a consumer. When you constantly talk about company image, I suspect that the image is hiding some deficiencies.
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