I came across this in a book some time ago:
In Scandinavia, it was very important to keep a piano in the house in the old days, before TV ruined all creative impulses. Scandinavians were divided into four social classes:

Those who had education and piano.
Those who had education, but no piano.
Those who had piano, but no education.
Those who had no education and no piano.

I'm afraid the piano lately has fallen by the wayside as a measuring stick of one's ranking in society, although as a proud Estonia owner, I still feel a cut above my neighbors who only have education.

It's ashame that the piano has fallen to such diversions as TV and video games. The U.S. piano distribution (retail sales) has fallen over the years from over 200,000 annually down to the area of 75,000 yearly (if memory serves me correctly).

Fifty years ago, there was a piano in nearly every household here in the United States. It was a status symbol of sorts! There were literally hundreds of piano manufacturers here in places like New York, Boston, Chicago, etc! Nearly everyone one is long, long gone with only Steinway, Baldwin & Chas. Walter remaining.

I am 62 years of age and have been playing pianos since I began lessons at the age of 5! Why am I playing piano today? Because the home that my parents bought in 1944 came with an upright piano! What a concept!

Thanks for posting that information!

Paul

Well, for better or worse, we as a human race can't dictate what gets left behind as we progress from generation to generation. 50 years ago music reproduction was through vinyl lps and record players. The current generation uses CD's and CD players. The next will use Ipods and mp3's.

As an LP lover, I can bemoan the fact that LP's are a sort of dead industry or I can realize that the LPs that are currently being pressed are mainly state of the art in qualilty.

Likewise, the quality of pianos produced today is probably generally much higher than 50 years ago where everybody and his brother was trying to get into the home piano entertainment business.

Today and rightfully so, most people are no more interested in the popular entertainment from fifty years ago anymore than people from the 1940's were interested in the popular entertainment of the 1890's. However, I'm pretty sure acoustic pianos will be around in some form until the planet ceases to exist. Hopefully, anyway...

Piano is a total discretionary purchase.

I hope most of us don't view our Piano as something that establishes our rank/economic status?

The thing that has changed, people with discretionary funds find other activities to spend their money on to show their place.

So you are correct, so many other things impress the neighbors beside haveing a Grand in the livingroom. Whats in the garage, whats in the family room, what your zipcode is... where you vacation, and whether you have a tan.

Cheers

Irony: Most of the neighbors know little about pianos and would be equally impressed by a Wyman as a Bosendorfer

I seldom have visitors and couldn't care less whether any of my neighbors know that I have a piano.

BTW my car is a 1997 with 120k miles on it, but I thought my money better spent on a new grand.

To answer the original question directly...

I have both education and piano, but these days that doesn't mean much!!

Education is expensive and pianos are expensive, so you can imagine where my money now resides!

I don't know where your $ is but apparently in Scandanavia, you would be considered high society material. Ever thought about relocating, lol!

GC

Ahh it is sad my money was not well spent for status. Only two names seem to move the Ignorant in my neck of the woods they begin with S and Y in that order!

I did drive my last car 15 years till the engine died...

Oh well.

Charles

We are thankful that although pianos are no longer considered a "status symbol" here in the United States, people are finally beginning to realize that music education (particularly playing the piano) is a wise thing to do for their children!

Years ago, Yamaha began a study entitled, "Music and the Brain". Through the research of many educational professionals, it was discovered that music helped develop portions of the brain. Certain types of music listened to prior to taking a test in school ("classical" for instance), the student would actually test higher.

They have since proved that studying music helps improve the test scores of children (mostly "math"), they become much smarter (brighter) and become more well-rounded in social skills.

Here in retail circles, we have seen a definate increase in parents purchasing pianos (both digital and acoustic) because they want their children to take lessons. They realize it is good for them and they also want to give their children the opportunity, which they feel they missed when THEY were young.

Finally we can lay claim to something top tier[/b] as we fit in the "have education and piano" group!

Ignorant Husband said: [/b] But of course it does.[/b] Class is alive and well in America. Owning something top of the line, living in the *best* area, driving the best vehicle, graduating from college, earning top dollar, even coming from a certain family very much establishes ones "rank" in society. .. even among pianophiles.

Personally I am proud of all the material things we have, (lower tierred that they typically are ) because unlike so many that need to make payments on everything, we actually own [/b]. ..

However different strokes of course.

Having a piano must still have the ability to impress lots of people. Advertisements for homes, elegant condos, expensive windows, etc. often include a piano as part of their chosen image of fine and refined living. My piano must be slumming.

Personally, I wasn't given the oppurtunity to take lessons or have a piano at home as a child. I never learned anything about classical music or composers in school. But when I first heard the "Raindrop Prelude" played on an accoustic piano I feel in love with the music and the instrument.

I like pianos because I like the music they make and learning piano has taught me a lot about music in general and introduced me to musical styles that I never listened to before. Having a piano doesn't make me better than someone who doesn't have one, in fact, my social status has nothing to do with my piano. I play piano because I love it, plain and simple, it allows me to express a side of myself that my normally rigidly analytical mind cannot impart and for that I am grateful to have discovered it.

I would like to think that anyone who truly loves music would not see a piano as just a status symbol at all. If anything I would use your passion to influence other people to learn more and appreciate music from a different perspective.
If you want a status symbol buy an expensive sports car in a flamboyant color, it's hard to lug a piano around just for showing off ;->

~pianocliff

Do we even have classes in our socialist, egalitarian Scandinavian societies..? (as a left-leaning sociology/development studies student I should probably shut up.. )
Seriously, I think that survey/way of categorizing probably was dead on 40-80 years ago but not anymore
- I forget what they use as indicators now - I think we have around 20 piano stores in Denmark nationally - there are NOT a lot of new pianos being sold (and remember that the sales of new pianos in Western Europe as a whole equals those of the state of California) - no wonder piano styling more and more reflects American and Asian rather than European taste..

Tyrri, I was not aware that relatively few pianos were being sold in Europe. Why do you think that is?

One of the reasons, as I understand it, is, that there is no prestige in having a piano in the house here anymore (as there to some extent still is in the US, afaik). Another reason is that we simply don't have enough room to put a grand piano in a "normal" size European home (apart from concert rooms and conservatories (churches here don't buy pianos - remember how non-religious Europeans are compared to many Americans)) private grand piano sales are next to nothing here..) - also, if people do choose to play the piano home they buy a digital instead.. (the vast majority does..)

Pianos are definitely a discretionary expense and to have a grand piano here in the US suggests something to most people -- especially if you don't really play all that well. Like me!

I don't really care about my neighbors as much as I care about myself. I find the music I am able to creat really affects me in a way that nothing else does and in that way my piano is very much mandatory as opposed to a luxury.

I am also very value conscious and feel that getting the highest quality piano that will cost me (and my family) the least amount in the long run outweighs the minor inconvenience if owing a couple thousand dollars. I own my cars, have about 75% equity in my home, and I know I only live once.

BTW, both my wife and I have educations from one of the top public Universities, since you asked.

In the real world none of this really matters, does it?

- also -

…and through it all tyrri sounds even a little sad about it. Americans maybe used to have some romantic notions about our European cousins across the water. Nowadays, take a six, seven or eight hour flight from the east coast and you can be in the homeland of the great classical musicians and then amazingly, hardly anyone even knows who they were, what music they created, etc. Imagine going to France, playing piano for a group of people maybe fifteen to twenty years younger on average, and you play a program of all French impressionists and they think you are playing something American! They don’t even know their own music! Oh, they liked it all right. But it’s all very sad somehow. And the great piano making companies of Europe, so many of them and they are all so small. They survive by staying small, limiting how much they can make, pricing everything very carefully and they must still meet the incredible competition from the economic dynamos in Asia. But Europeans have smaller living spaces anyway and can’t find room for grand pianos and they must live so close together (for warmth if for nothing else) and “if people do choose to play the piano home they buy a digital instead.. (the vast majority does..)” And actually it is mostly the same here too. I know lots of people with digital keyboards, far fewer with actual acoustic pianos, very very few even here with grands and most are often the fairly small kind. And how many people play what I play? I have to laugh. Nobody, well almost nobody, even likes any of it, unless I play something really loud and fast. Yes, so what class am I? Education that isn’t technical in nature is practically worthless. Pianos…. The same. There are really classes like these now:

1. People who can buy a luxury car (or piano) on their credit card and pay it off completely next month. Oh yeah, there are such people. And many of them don’t have “an education” to speak of.

2. People who are living from paycheck to paycheck who are striving to keep pace with changes in their families and the outside world. Those who invest in either education or a piano are the brave sorts. There are probably a lot of people like that here in America.

3. People who might have “an education” but they have no need or desire for a piano because their “education” hasn’t translated itself into higher pay and somebody told them when they were young that they should forget about becoming a musician because they never earn good money (are rock stars, punk rockers, rap artists, musicians? A top rap artist just bought a $30 million house in some plush suburb in New Jersey. What does THAT say to the up coming generation concerning class and status?).

4. People who have computers with high speed internet connection and know how to use them …..

5. People who don’t.

And we still see threads on here and elsewhere about why isn’t classical music popular? Why then don’t more people play the piano? What’s wrong with the world?

“I think we have around 20 piano stores in Denmark nationally - there are NOT a lot of new pianos being sold (and remember that the sales of new pianos in Western Europe as a whole equals those of the state of California) - no wonder piano styling more and more reflects American and Asian rather than European taste..”

Yeah well, Denmark is a small country, you could drive through it all in a single day maybe. Western Europe, a week’s drive and you could drive around a lot of it. But size is only one point. The other is, THIS IS WHERE PIANOS AND CLASSICAL MUSIC STARTED, and look what’s happened there? Their kids, a lot of them anyway, seem to want to become more like Americans! Oh no!

Let’s talk about class: We ought to ask our European friends about the generation gap over there that seems wider than here: a man told me in a frank tone of voice, “Our children mostly despise us, and we mostly return the courtesy.”

[QUOTE]Originally posted by tyrri:

The reason is that we simply don't have enough room to put a grand piano in a "normal" size European home.

Well, I don't know about that. Our American home is 900 square feet, and we still have ample room for a studio grand. I guess it all depends on what you REALLY want in you home.

Are there any pictures posted of that?

I'm European. I live alone in an 1100 ft² home and I would not have room for a grand. Too much other furniture in my house. Hardly any in yours? How can you do it?

Folks, there have been books written about this -- one the "Role of Pianos" or something like that.

It all started with Jane Austin's novels in the 19th century featuring a cultured household with a piano and ladies who knew how to play.

These were times with no TV, radio, stereo, ipod, movies, cars and the piano was the focus of entertainment, and courting.

At the turn of the 20th century, 1 in 12 jobs in NY were related to the piano -- this was the biggest industry -- more akin to cars of PCs today.

The piano was a reflection of culture, society and even lower middle class families aspired to own at least an upright.

Paul is right, many adds show a grand piano in homes. However, most people today probably buy a piano more for the pleasure it gives, as there's a lot less learning involved in playing the stereo, taking a drive, going to the movies, watching tv and the like.

Besides, it's slightly easier carrying an ipod (Walkman for us older folks) than carrying a 600 pound piano around.

Men, Women and Pianos : A Social History by Arthur Loesser an absolute MUST read for piano buffs.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Eins:

]Are there any pictures posted of that?

Yes, try my website, it has the whole house and garden AND grand pianna. Amazing what you can cram into a small house. I lived with a Yamaha U1 for 15 years before I realized I could make room for a grand. And as Miss Piaf said: Je ne regrette rien.

We have 1100 s.f. and are expecting our 6-foot grand in a few weeks. Wow do we do it? Well, sacrificing some other furniture, for example not have a large dining table. It's just a matter of priorities!

Are pianos expensive? I'm increasingly focusing on a new Yamaha U1 - sorry . It will cost me roughly 1.5 months net salary, but then I have a reasonably good salary. As a reference point, it lists at about roughly 7 months gross salary at the legal minimum wage (here in France).

Up to you to decide if it's expensive or not.

For me, the bigger issue is the abysmal level of music education, particularly here in France. They're still in the dark ages as far as teaching is concerned, and have managed to take my enthousiastic daughter and put her off the instrument in one year. Music education here is expensive, elitist and serves to foster a classical snobbism that disgusts me. The music system here measures your boredom threshold, not your love of music or your musical ability.

By the way, the drop out rate from music in France is very high, mainly because it's so boring and so badly taught.

To give a simple example, I was listening while my daughter practiced a piece at the end of her first term of piano (at the age of 7). She was obviously getting it wrong as it was horrible with no melody, rhythm, structure or anything, so I yelled from the kitchen "Start again", as you do. The same. So I go and look. She's been given exercises to work her dexterity: 4th-2nd finger jumps, 4th-5th etc. No tune, no nothing - and three lines of it. Probably not even her tenth lesson, poor kid. Her opinion - "C'est nul, papa". So I spent some time teaching her "chopsticks" - it ain't le conservatoire but it's fun, and that's the most important thing.

If your first experiencesof learning the piano is a soul-less wade through finger exercises, then is it any wonder that as an adult you don't go out and buy a decent piano?

Improve the teaching, produce a young generation of happy pianists, and once they start earning they'll be off the the piano shop with the grubby mitts full of dollars/pounds/Euros or whatever.

nick

I admit I am always curious when someone posts that their home is small- how well it actually accomodates a grand piano. I went to your website ChatNoir, all I can say is what a lovely home. Love all the art work. Apparently your 900 sf is very well designed to accomodate everything so elegantly!

Regards

Thank you, Mamma2my3sons, for your kind words. It hasn't been easy furnishing this little crow's nest, but a lot of shopping around and a lot of measuring assured the grand piano's place in our life. And as I have always said: A home without a piano is no home. (Opinionated? Who? Me? Impossible!!)

Nick,
Your lengthy post was such a good one that it begged me to respond to it...

To those who need nothing else, the ultimate piano is never too expensive and that goes for those out there who may be buying themselves something really very expensive like a Fazioli. But there are so many really very good pianos out there at more reasonable prices that I have always had serious concerns that people not bankrupt themselves to have a really very fine piano that will do for them most of what the very expensive ones will do. As Nick is pointing out, this may not be the primary concern.

Emphasis mine. This is a clarion cry to do what most people in France are seemingly reluctant to do because through their history they are aware of how acutely excesses can go too far. Reform is clearly called for, but when an irresistible force meets an immovable object, well something's gotta move. There would be some in France that might be so rash as to condemn the Paris Conservatory system in whole and total. What would they put in its place? Better to have something than nothing is what one hears. Radicalism is decried because there IS a radical element in France and very strong feelings can be aroused, and what then? Nobody wants a brush with violence. So they put up with whatever they have and feel it is fruitless and possibly stupid to oppose "system;" what has always been done, and has worked for those who weren't bored stiff by it.

This MAY be a universal problem with MANY subjects as they are tought in France. I do not know.

Ah, you are showing radicalism, my friend. Were I there in person I would congratulate you with a smile, a wink, shake on it, etc. If it isn't fun, there is no interest and without interest, "C'est nul," and that may go for everything, not just music. Tell everyone here how a certain class of people in France seem to view their position as the use of power to bore as many others as possible into a desperate state of ennui that they talk about and write about and complain about when they can. Of course there are others who spend a tremendous amount of time struggling against them until sometimes the massive system arrayed to keep things as they are bends enough to make the human and even the humane possible.

Mais oui, qui ne préferait pas?

Hummmm.... En France, Ils besoin meilleur professeurs de piano peut-être.
Je croisée beaucoup de personnes en France qui avoir du talent pour musique, mais de richesses de leur musique, qui n'est attentif pas. Quel dommage!

Hi David,

Thanks for the excellent reply. I got on one of my soapboxes - music teaching - and got a bit carried away

I feel very radical about music teaching. Music is something fundamental to all societies. It has rhythymed human existence for thousands of years, it is known to bring psychological benefits etc etc etc... and it's just a plain, straightforwad pleasure. Yet the learning of it has, in most cases, become a tedious chore. The ABM in Britain seems to have seen the light and now apparently includes jazz options in its curriculumn, though I don't know how successful this has been. Unfortunately, this idea hasn't spread to France, and I find music teaching archaique.

There are some teachers of the Yamaha school, and I'd be intrigued to know if they get better results... which begs the question of what the aim of music teaching is... which is probably the topic of another post.

As for your other points, I find France an extremely conservative society, with a left wing that fights tooth and claw to preserve the working and social conditions it has gained through decades of struggle, and a "ruling class" that seeks to preserve it's own elite position (lost in its own ivory tower, IMHO). An inherently conservative population leads on the one hand to the continuation of the "cute" provencal ways that so many anglo-saxons find alluring, and on the other hand to an extremely reactionary education system that is many decades behind the UK (My main point of reference).

Sorry to descend into politics. Moderator, feel free to blow this away if it offends.

nick

Nick, please join us on any of the following alternative discussion groups:

http://www.armleg.com/forum/index.php?mforum=pianosinc
http://s10.invisionfree.com/The_New_Coffee_Room/index.php?act=idx
http://well-temperedforum.groupee.net/eve

There are some of us in the Anglo-Saxon fold who find France alluring without comprehending the deep struggles of the French people who often seem to us carefree and even indolent. There are others of us who have bothered to get to know a few Frenchmen and care more about what happens to France and France's cultural treasures. There are some discussions on the other forums about the EU, etc.

As for this forum, the Pianists Forum might be a better place to begin a discussion on music teaching techniques, how they are today and how they might be in the future. I'll look for such a thread and participate in it.

Again Nick, thank you for your contributions to this forum.