I had just bought an old piano and was ready to start practicing.
Via the yellow pages I called a piano tuner.
He came and told me that it could not be tuned and that he had to be rebuilt. He quoted $2,700.00 and wanted to know when he could pick it up.
What he did next was really rotten. He loosened a bunch of pins so the piano become useless.
That was three years ago and I am still playing the same piano.

How do you know the tuner loosened pins intentionally? Has it been tuned successfully since?

I hope you mean he tested a few pins for tightness, but didn't put them back on pitch. Still not a nice thing to do.

What was it that made you decide to report this three years later?

Lew

Where you correct on another thread when you said you paid $75.00 for this piano?

If so how did you get the tuner to come see it?

Since we don't know what you actually own, one cannot pass judgement on the situation.

On the lighter side, there are many people who buy old pianos which would really need a complete rebuilding job.

For a a lot more $$[/b] than what this tech quoted you......

Norbert

You bought a 75$ piano and think the tech was being crooked when he said it needs a rebuild? LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

If the piano couldn't be tuned he should have charged you for his time and explained the problem. Did he recommend the rebuild or just tell you what it would cost if you wanted the work done? Most pianos like this are simply not worth rebuilding. To be honest $75 is less than it would cost to have it taken away and destroyed. I think you should ebay it for virtually nothing just to get someone to come and take it off your hands. Other than this you could take it outside and demolish it yourself (can be quite satisfying!). Then if you are serious about playing the piano invest in a decent quality instrument.

Greetings, I called another tuner and he just used larger pins and it tuned it. As I wrote before, I have been playing it for three years. It has been a great beginner piano. The reason that I know that he deliberately loosened the pins is because it was playable before he got here and not when he left. I filed with Utah Consumer Protection, but they took no action. (If I were a crook---not the kind that pulls a gun at 7-11---- but sets up a business to steal money, I would work in Utah. Consumer protection is close to non existant)The reason that I write about it now is because I just joined your forums and wanted to find out if others have had this problem. (I joined the forum because I am looking to upgrade to a $100.00 piano!! :-) :-))
Thanks for your input, Lew.

Lew

What damages are you claiming? Is it that he ruined your $75 piano by maliciously loosening pins that then had to be replaced, or that he took a piano that was playing in tune and left it out of tune?

What did tuner #2 say about tuner #1? How many pins had to be replaced and at what cost?

Utah doesn't much make the news so you have an opportunity to educate a lot of people on how things really work in your state.

"What damages are you claiming? Is it that he ruined your $75 piano by maliciously loosening pins that then had to be replaced, or that he took a piano that was playing in tune and left it out of tune?"

I am not claming damages. I have a perfectly playable piano that I have been using for three years. He made it not playable and told me that i have to spend $2,700 on it to be able to use it. To me that seems to me to very unethical!! I thought that was a rotten thing to do.

"What did tuner #2 say about tuner #1? How many pins had to be replaced and at what cost?"

Tuner #2, didn't say much about tuner #1 other than he had heard rumors. I count 5 pins that he has replaced. I think that he charged me $12.00 for a pin plus instaillation. That is over three years.

Hey buddy the only unethical thing that Tuner did was that he didn't do you the favor and junked that piano himself with a sledgehammer!


No but seriously, if you really want to upgrade to 100$ piano check Craigslist, members here are constantly finding free grand pianos or very cheap grand pianos over there that people are trying to get rid of. Just go to craigslist.com and click on your state, but make sure to check surrounding states as well because there might be a good deal that will be worth the slight drive.
I had already found several people giving away free uprights around here but haven't had the chance to snap one up yet.

Just curious, what brand of piano is it. I think that many people experience what you did. At best, the tuner wanted to upgrade your piano to a level that was beyond your needs. At worst, he didn't offer you less extreme options because he wanted to drum up business for himself. I have seen many cases where someone bought (or was given) an in-expensive piano that certainly needed work but could be made quite playable w/o huge repairs. A tuner/tech who worked in my area years ago would go for a tuning on an old upright and, whatever the brand, would tell the customer that they had a rare and extremely valuable piano... if only they'd allow him to rebuild it! On the other hand, there are techs who are extremely accomodating. They'll explain what you have, what it needs ideally, and what he can try to make the piano serviceable w/o major work. Some people are genuinely looking for a $75.00 piano. Some people can only afford a $75.00 piano. And there are pianos that can fit that bill nicely if their owners can find a tech that realizes that and can work on that basis.
Also, It would be a shame to trash your piano (as was suggested previously). When you no longer want it I'll bet another family would love to have it! Walt

Good this worked out for you!

One question: the repair and tuning obviously cost you more than the piano itself?[/b]

Lucky boy...... or??

Norbert

I'm still having trouble understanding what happened, are you saying he stripped the pins in order to make work for himself...i.e. a new pinblock?

If he did that wouldn't he have to allege that when he turned them to tune that they stripped? and then he didn't tell you that it was possible to put larger pins in? or he wouldn't just do that?

Putting in larger pins to get enough torque to keep certain strings in tune -
is a tell-tale sign of a piano that basically *had it*......

No offense,you can still play it - but it's days are basically numbered.

Next: replace all[/b] pins and[/b] strings - provided the pinblock itself is still good enough - and continue, while you're at it - with new hammers, new felts and,and,and,and......

Hey, good new[/b] pianos start at $ 3 k today!

At least in Canada......

Norbert

Norbert name me a single "good" new piano for 3k. I hardly consider U1 good...

Heretic

Depends on the relative context. What would you recommend for a beginner adult or parent with young children who has 3K or less to spend?

"No but seriously, if you really want to upgrade to 100$ piano check Craigslist"

Sorry, I was joking about upgrading to a $100.00 piano. i did join the forum to learn about pianos and will probably buy something between $2500.00 and $5000.00. Because of my low level of skill, I don't think that I need to go to any better piano.

"Just curious, what brand of piano is it."

It is either a SM Miller or SW Miller. (hard to read) 1921 I think.

"I'm still having trouble understanding what happened, are you saying he stripped the pins in order to make work for himself...i.e. a new pinblock?"

All that I know is that the piano was somewhat in tune before he got here and after he left several wires were so loose that it could not be used.
I should add that I got it because a neighbor was moving and sold me it for $75.00. Because I had always wanted to learn piano, I bought it.
Also, it certainly has given me great service as I have plaid it one hour a day for three years.
i am enjoying this input. Thanks, Lew

father then I'd probly recommend the aforementioned yamahas as they're pretty decent but for me personally I have them at school to practice on all the time and I'm just so tired of it mostly because of weak it is, no sound whatsoever, no bass no treble no nothing its strings must be like 40 inches or less. The action is pretty nice though, albeit at the school they're so used and banged up that most of it is uneven but when I played something a little better like Forster upright it sounded so much deeper and louder and better. But for a beginning I guess the yamaha is a good bargain..

Heretic :

Don't (necessarily) judge Yamahas on the basis of the ones you play at school. Is it possible that these are older Yahamas that have had the heck beaten out of them and have not been properly maintained?

Yamahas are fairly good instruments for the money and the U1 - for what it is - is considered by many as a pretty decent instrument.

Regards,

Bruce that's the big myster that I'm really really curious about and hope to answer soon...I constantly hear people talk so highly of the U series here and yet at school when I first played them I thought it was some of the cheapest rubbish I've ever touched. And so this disparity makes no sense to me at all and I really started wondering if maybe the ones are school are just beat up as you said because they have had so much use but on the other hand I wonder but what are the chances that every single one at school just happens to be a lemon and has no bearing on what a newer one sounds like?? Because every single one at school sounds identical.

So it's either A. my standards are super high or
B. the pianos at school are really beat up

Lew

Congratulations on your progress and commitment, thats the important thing and your 2.5-5K upgrade is going to give you great pleasure. I wouldn't worry about that initial tuner experience or the Utah Consumer Protection dept. I'm not sure I would want my tax dollars used to protect a $75 piano, but it would make for a fun Judge Wapner or Judge Judy show...if only you threw the bench at him it might even make Jerry Springer.

and what about your neighbor, it would have cost him more than $75 to have it carted away...

but back to the good news, your 3 years of effort is about to pay off when you lay your hands on your next piano.

Finally a hypothetical question about the Utah Consumer Protection dept...if I went to a school for bird shooting and was mistook for a quail by the teacher could I place a claim into the Utah Consumer protection dept?

Lew - Are you telling us that you played the piano for 3 years untuned?

Something doesn't smell right here.

Lew I think there is a possibility that the pins in question, though "listenable" to previous to the first attempted tuning, may have already been loose. Continued manipulation with the tuning hammer to try and get them in order to get a stable tuning at pitch, probably just made them worse, at which point the tech made the call that the piano could not be tuned. Was this the right call? I can't say since I wasn't there, but I could hardly call him dishonest from the situation as you described it. I'm curious, did you ever try to contact him again to try and remedy the situation, or did you go straight to consumer protection?

"I wouldn't worry about that initial tuner experience or the Utah Consumer Protection dept. I'm not sure I would want my tax dollars used to protect a $75 piano, but it would make for a fun Judge Wapner or Judge Judy show...if only you threw the bench at him it might even make Jerry Springer."

I would agree except for the fact that a crook is a crook is a crook. I look at it as a $2700.00 scam.

"Lew - Are you telling us that you played the piano for 3 years untuned?"

I brought another tuner in right away. When he is in the area he has an open order to come by and tune mine. He is probably here every 9 months.

LEW - don't listen to many of these guys giving you hell about your decision to report the tuner and other things. The way I see it is, if a tuner comes to the house of an obvious piano newbie, who has just purchased his first piano, it is his resonsibility and obligation to inform the person in a completely clear and non-underhanded manner what the deal is with the piano from all perspectives. He should have informed you if 1. it would be playable at all without the 3,000$ rebuild, which he should have obviously assumed you are not willing to dish out because it's only logical that someone who purchased the piano for 75$ is not going to be willing to pay 3000$ for a rebuild of it because for that much you can get a much better used or new piano. and 2. If the piano absolutely requires the rebuild he should tell you about it and give you room to decide and not attempt to sabotage it on purpose, 3. If it doesn't REQUIRE a rebuild but he would suggest one anyway then, again he should do so without pushing or being forceful in his attempt to get you to shell out your hard earned money.
As for as I can see from your story he did none of those things and unless you are misunderstanding what exactly occurred then I completely agree with your decision to report him.

However, on the other hand, to slightly play devil's advocate and defend the tuner's possible honor, I think it IS POSSIBLE that the pins were already loose/stripped enough but the strings themselves didn't have the tension yet to make them spin out of tune but slight pressure applied by the tuner in an attempt to turn and tune them resulted in the surface tension being broken and thus the strings tension now being uncontrollable and thus the pins now unable to be properly turned and thus the piano not being able to be tuned any further without the use of aforementioned members' methods such as bigger pins, glue, new pin block, etc.

Just FYI, when we join the Piano Technicians Guild, we agree to abide by its code of ethics: honesty and integrity when doing business.

If this tuner was a PTG member, please report him:
http://www.ptg.org

--Cy--

Sounds like one of a couple scenario's are possible:

1. Tuner comes to house, sees junker piano is disgusted with himself for taking the call but soon realizes the owner is a newbie and tries to make a quick buck and redeem the day and his self esteem.

2. Tuner comes to the house, and while making a diagnosis turns a few pins and in moving each of them strips them from the rotted wood. Ever try and take a bolt off a rusted screw?

So, this could be kabuki theatre where your opinion depends on what vantage point you are looking at it from. Both Lew and Tuner #1 could believe they are in the right. Also, isn't it at all possible that the next tuner in his own disingenuous way besmirches the prior guy to curry favor? (Scenario 2a) Think about how many times we have heard someone give that shaking head I'm sorry but the prior advice you got was just plain misguided tale.