The following is an advertisement regarding an upcoming sale at a local college (TCNJ).


>During the past school year, our Music Department has had the use of a number of
new pianos and digital pianos at no cost to us. These instruments are part of a national loan program that provides pianos to participating
institutions. These instruments must be sold for us to receive our allocation of new
replacements. These pianos and pianos from other universities will be on display and available for purchase.
The selection includes quality grands, baby grands, player pianos, uprights, studios, consoles, spinets, and digital pianos. Pianos used in our department include Schimrnel, Prarnberger, Kurzweil and Roland. Other used
pianos for sale include Steinway, Yamaha, Baldwin, Petrof, Kawai, and others. Every
piano is tuned, warranteed and ready for delivery. Many are less than one year
old and carry full manufacturer's warranties. Special arrangements have been made for
financing, delivery and warranty through Bucks County Piano. There are two ways to view and purchase these pianos:

1. BY APPOINTMENT: You may attend along with our faculty and staff, a special "pre-sale" prior to the frnal general public day on Friday, May 9 or
Saturday, May 10. This gives you priority in selection and price reduction. To arrange and
secure an available time, call (609) 730-3933.

2. Attend the general public sale on Sunday, May 11 from 12 to 5pm in the Music Building on campus.


Is anyone familiar with these types of sales, and if so, can you share any insights?


Thanks in advance,
Alan

In general, I would be cautious of music dept sales. The pianos offered would have heavily used by music students on a daily, continual basis.

Run!

One of the oldest tricks in the book. Most of the time you end up paying more for a piano than you would just going into a store on a normal day. The sales are generally supplemented with more inventory from the store putting on the sale. The prices on these are jacked up, but the customer is under the impression that they are used and are getting a great deal. I agree with Kenny RUN!

I'm generally a skeptic of these events, but the skepticism can be overdone. I would skip the appointment part of it because I really don't like the pressure. And if you are a novice piano shopper with limited information I would truly avoid high pressure sales tactics.

Most of the pianos you see there will not be from the school, or from other schools. They will be pianos from the dealership(s) that participate. If you want to browse among lots of pianos at the public showing, go for it. Just don't fall for any nonsense about special pricing. Any price they offer you on that day can likely be had on any other day as well by visiting any dealership's sales floor.

Some of these events are more on the level than others. At my school, one local Yammie dealership sponsors the event and the bulk of the pianos are from his store. They don't seem to import a set of traveling salespeople, relying instead, for the most part, on their regular staff. Some of the traveling road shows have a really bad reputation for being staffed by aggressive and often deceitful sharpies.

Lastly, the pianos on offer tend NOT to be the student practice pianos that have had the carp beaten out of them for years. I know, once again from my school, that the used pianos on offer have been in faculty offices. Yes, they have been used, but they have not been brutalized.

That's not true at all you guys. I service for a local college here. Each year for the past 15 years, the local dealer has been providing the college with the use of at least 35 brand new pianos for absolutely nothing. No strings attached, pardon the pun...

At the end of the school year, the dealership holds an annual piano sale attempting to get rid of the pianos on hand. Now, in my colleges case, it is NOT necessary for them to have to sell all of the pianos in order to get new ones. They simply place the ones that do not sell back in for one more year. No big deal... So, that part may be bogus for you but, I can't say as I do not know this dealer.

It is NOT the college that is holding the sale. It is the dealership that holds the sale at the college. Most often, at least for mine anyway, the prices are extremely reasonable. If the pianos cases are beat up on, the dealer spends upwards of $4,000 or more yearly to repair the finishes on these pianos before the sale even takes place.

I service these pianos at least 5 or 6 different times throughout the year keeping them in tip top shape so, by the time the sale comes around, they are not much more used than many other pianos you might look at elsewhere.

Unless this particular dealer you are referring too is not to be trusted, I would not hesitate for an instant to check out these pianos but, be sure you have an independent piano tech look at them first to make sure the one you like is okay.

Also, contact the university directly to see how they like this dealership. Talk to the person in charge of the music department. They will have the most knowledge about the dealings with these dealer.

I would just like to back up Jerry's very accurate comments. I've been involved in these sales for the last ten years, as a tech, and often the reluctant sales help. I have noticed one extra advantage for my tuning customers that I thought I'd mention. If you get one of the loan pianos, they are nicely broken in, having been tuned repeatedly over the first year. You get a warranty that starts when you purchase the piano, but less cost and aggravation associated with new strings.

As long as you're dealing with a reputable dealer, you'll be okay!

The school sales around here are exactly as I described them. I should have stated that yes some of these sales are ok. However, from my experience the bulk of them are not. I'll cite an example. A dealer had one of these events at a local high school. They put TWO pianos in the school a year earlier and had around 40 pianos at the sale. They advertised that these pianos were all used and the proceeds would help the school. A customer came into our store to look at our prices to see if they got a good deal. After talking with them we looked up the full retail of the piano they bought in the Ancott book. This customer paid almost twice the full retail value of the piano. Thankfully after some arguing they were able to return the piano and got one from us instead. Now if this wasn't bad enough the company running the sale did not have a store in this particular city and did not have a business license. This is a problem because that means the taxes they collect did not go to the city that the sale was in. They advertise the event making it seem as if they are helping the schools out, but the schools aren't getting a dime even from taxes. Now like I said all of these sales may not be like this, but from my experience they usually are. Be very cautious. Do your homework and you should be able to spot a swindler.

Sounds like you might have a traveling sales store or something that sells out of their trucks. We have one of those come in from time to time that claim things like, going out of business sales and bogus things like that. These same travelers, sell lots of gray market pianos too. People like that give everyone else a bad name.

Of course, the colleges and universities that do have reputable piano dealers handling the sales will bring in outside pianos to also sell. Many of these are either brand new, from previous held sales where the pianos didn't sell so, they try again or pianos that were in the college for more than one year.

It's hard to believe my first post ever is identical to Alan's. My experience was not good. Although some have expressed positive experiences, I think most posts about college sales have been negative.

Interesting... Thanks folks; I'll do my homework and then decide if it's worth checking out. If nothing else, it's a good opportunity to try out a number of pianos.

Sadly Jerry it is a local dealer. We deal with bogus college and going out of business sales on a pretty regular basis!

Sorry--my computer is acting up--duplicate post.

There are several other threads on this subject that you should be able to find. Most of the posters (including me) are negative on these sales, which involve high prices and enormous sales pressure. They can be fun and allow you to try a wide variety of pianos--but your plan should NOT be to buy a piano. I have been to one or two that have been good, although I did not buy a piano. The quality of the sale is directly proportional to the quality of the dealer who is running it. If you cannot tell from the promotional material who is running the sale, check out the financing materials, which should tell you who is running the sale.

Alan,

Why not check out a local dealer with a much wider variety than will be available at TCNJ's sale? One that will stand behind the piano the way that few can and who sells with total transparacy in pricing. In fact, the staff carries the Fine book around with them during their presentations.

I am referring to Cunningham.

(Please forgive this blatant self promotion, but since this poster lives in my town and is considering going OUT OF TOWN to a college sale run by outside folks that I know, I thought this would be appropriate. I hope all agree)

Several years ago I was shopping for a car for my wife. I found the model and price I was looking for and drove about 45 miles to this dealer. I had called to be sure this car was still available. The lot had loud rock music blaring from loudspeakers, and the salesman had me walk the lot looking for the car. It was not there, and I was not happy.

We went inside and after a call discovered that the car I wanted to see was at the body shop and would be available that afternoon.

With that, the salesman said, "If I get you this price, are you ready to buy right now?"

That did it. I unceremoniously stood up and said "not from this dealership" and as i was leaving the salesman sarcastically said in a loud voice, "good luck finding a car for your wife."

You see, all of these warnings about those evil college sales, make the assumption that the customer won't leave if they don't like the situation. Nobody is held against their will and an informed consumer will have enough sense to "walk" if he doesn't like the situation. sit

Through manufacturer support, Selection, price, and special finance rates all can be more attractive than an the normal deal.

Rich,

Totally appropriate, and I appreciate the invitation. I've been to Cunningham, quite recently, actually. It was like being the proverbial kid in the candy store, and I could've easily spent a couple of more days there trying everything out.
I was intereseted in the TCNJ thing because I've taught there in the past, and this would give me the opportunity to check it out prior to the general public sale. I was also under the initial (and as I now see, erroneous) assumption that I might be able to get some kind of stellar deal because of my former affiliation with the college.

I'll agree with Rich on this post that you'd be better off visiting a piano store - I'd differ with him however on suggesting you take a visit to our store : )

I have no doubt that there are some well run college sales where the dealer that holds it gives good service and fair prices... However here's the down sides.

•It's not the college that's selling the pianos it's the dealer that placed them that is! Why can't they say that? Because the impression they want to give you is that it's the college that's selling the pianos.
•A common thread with most off site sales is that the prices are limited to a particular day the sale is held.
•In my experience with talking with people who have been to area sales the price you pay will be HIGHER than what you typically would pay if you visited a piano store.
•There's limited time that you have to look at the pianos and get advice on what to get.
•The sales are based on impulse buying. Reminds me of times I've been to a time share presentation and gotten a "one time offer" that will go away the minute I step out the door.
•You're choosing from a limited selection.
•The pianos typically do not get prepped the same way we would prep a piano before it's delivered.

I've heard from one customer who had a Young Chang grand replaced under warranty in the Philadelphia area. He happened to go to a college sale with his friend and saw his former piano being sold along with the other pianos — and not as a used piano.

On the point of prepping the piano. Realize that the pianos are delivered right from the college to your home. I've spoken to some piano tuners and touch up guys who do a lot of follow up business off these sales because there just isn't the time to prep all the pianos on site before delivery. When someone buys a piano here it goes back in the shop, our finishing guy will find something needing attention even on pianos right out of the box. There's also tuning, regulation and voicing the piano if needed. There's just not enough time to do all this on each piano at a typical sale before it's delivered.

Frequently we'll take advantage of some special deals from piano companies on models that were discontinued or were at a college sale. We're upfront on the age of the piano, how it was used and pass the savings along to the customer.

Again, save some time and shop for your piano at a piano store.

FWIW after spending 10 years on Pianoworld Rich is one of only two or three people I trust so much that I'd buy a piano from him sight unseen from across the country.
And I am the ultimate untrusting piano snob.

You are lucky to live so close to Cunningham Pianos.

Glenn,

I think it appears to give these dealers more credibility if people think the college is actually holding the sale themselves rather than the dealer. Me? hehehe, I tell all of my customers that it is NOT the college but, the dealer that is holding the sale. I'm still surprised at how many of my customers are surprised by this fact.

I agree too in that not nearly enough prep work is given prior to the delivery of these pianos to the colleges when they arrive from outside of the college for the sale. Usually, that prep work consists of a simple tuning. And, fast crummy ones at that.

In fact, the pianos that are delivered to me to tune for the remainder of the year, come directly unpacked, still in the box, with not one ounce of prep work. That leaves a ton of extra work for me to do which I do not care for. That is, unless they happened to have not sold a few pianos in which case, these will probably go back into the college for the next fiscal school year.

Always, always, talk to the college technician, independent technician, music department individuals to see about the reputation of your local dealership that might be holding these sales and in particular, talk with the technicians about the quality and condition of the piano prior to purchase. This applies where ever you decide to make your purchase.

If these dealerships would participate in the Public School Piano Loan Program, it would be MUCH better for everyone.

I was tempted to buy a used Yamaha from my old school but hesitated due to good advice on the piano forum. I found out the dealership conducting the sale for the school was a reputable dealer.

Even if I thought it was a good deal, I would have an independent technician not affiliated with the school or the dealership with me for an independent assessment.

- Mark

I get those invitations all the time from my university, and I agree that the prospect of getting first dibs on the pianos to faculty/staff is appealing on the surface. Of course, one year I happened to notice a large advertisement in the local newspaper offering appointments to EVERYBODY on the same day as the allegedly "special" faculty preview day. :rolleyes:

I'm not saying that is necessarily the case in your situation; it just happened that way here.

The one time I went to a college sale I found it a very disappointing experience. Not at all conducive to trying out pianos and lots of sales pressure.

Alanp: listen to kenny!!!! He is absolutely correct in his assessment of Rich at Cunningham. As I have good reason to know over many years of piano purchases, Rich is the soul of honor, and he has wonderful pianos for sale at his store. You should get over there and buy a piano!

Steven Cohen posted, Assuming of course that the fast-buck artists who run many of these "sales" would not be doing everybody a favor by just switching to used cars.

Questions from an ignorant foreigener:

1) if I as potential client ask where a particular piano comes from (ie whether it is ex college or from a dealership) do I have the right to get the right answer (ie rescind the purchase if they lied to me) and how can I verify? If there's no way to verify the entire expression "college sale" becomes a joke.

2) Is not the expresssion "college sale" anyway misleading is the sale is not made by the college? In a country with apparently so much consumer protection I'd expect a more aggressive protection of the truth before than of the client?

3) If i like a piano and I know that it comes from a dealer, why in the world should I buy the piano on that day? I know perfectly well that if I don't buy today, the day after tomorrow the piano will be at the store, unsold, the negotiation now much more interesting....... (if one acts on the belief that the piano is going to go away that day there' s no redemption for him anyway).

4) An opinion from the techs: how much damage can "brutal music college treatment" make if it has gone on for only one year? At the end of the day, 8 hours a day for a year should give approximately the same wear and tear than 1 hour a day for 8 years, right? Still, an 8 year quality piano would still be considered a child....

Thanks
Innominato

Innominato,

1. I can't tell you all of the information because I do not know. Others here will know more along those lines than I can tell but, Yamaha for example, if the serial number starts with the letter T it was made in THOMASTON Georgia. Kawai has certain things stamped on them that will tell us where they are made too. At least, that's how it is here in the USA...

More input on this from others?

2. Yep. IMO, our country is no longer for us, it's for them.

3. Here in GR anyway, people are waiting for the piano sales instead of just going into the stores to make the purchase when they want the piano. The stores know this and also know the price should be lower because, after all, it is a sale or they may not buy it regardless.

And yes, there are always plenty of other sales throughout the year too...

4. Not much brutal damage occurs at all. The worst damage we have on our pianos is simple carelessness. Setting water on top and spilling. Scratching the finish. Kicking and intentionally doing damage to the outside of the piano. The insides holds up rather well. They are built to take a lot really.

Got questions about the piano? This is the place to ask them.

(For questions about playing the piano, please visit the Pianist Corner) Please do not use this forum to advertise your own business or pianos for sale.[/b] We have an excellent source for selling pianos through The Piano Exchange .

This guideline is copied from the top of the Forum. It seems quite clear to me. I would have to take issue with Rich and his blatant advertising because someone who lives "in his town" is going to a University Piano sale.

Those of us in the manufacturing side of the industry are quick to be scolded if our toe steps over the "information" line. What is different here?

Rich is a really nice guy, and his store is a quality operation. That, to me, is not sufficeint to justify winking at the rules. After all, there are other nice guys with quality operations that do refrain from stepping over the line. In that regard, I like to see a level playing field.
Fair treatment for all.

I bought my piano at a university sale, and so did one of my students. It's nothing special, really, except for a small discount that we received for being the campus "alumnus" and "friend of alumnus."

It's just like going to any piano stores during their sale. There are going to be good pianos and bad pianos. In fact, at the particular university sale I went to, there were plenty of bad pianos. It took me a while to find a good one. We did save some money, though.

No doubt there are a certain percentage of pianos at every university sale that were actually on loan.

Does anyone know what the business model is for the free use of pianos to a university? Is it the loan is in return for the ability to have a university sale or is it a more complicated model that includes outright sale of some pianos combined with the marketing value of having the pianos visible to students and the university sale itself? Maybe the manufacturer adds to the equation too?

The dealer and university seem to benefit from the relationship which is not necessarily a bad thing. The question is what is the public's understanding of the sale and what percent of pianos are from the loan versus brought in for the sale.

On some level the dealer doesn't want to have to drag the loan pianos back to the store after having loaned them. On another level the university is allowing its name to be used in what appears to be a mutually benefiting relationship which may or may not be fully understood.

Pure speculation on my part, perhaps someone knows what the potential relationships and arrangements really are.