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Sorry -- originally posted in the wrong forum.

After a fair amount of research and shopping, my wife and I have decided to buy a Yamaha GC1 grand piano. We had been looking at Kohler & Campbell and Story & Clark 4'7 grands, but found there to be a significant step up in feel and sound to the Yamaha without busting the budget.

We're also going to have a player system installed, and basically have a choice between the Disklavier version of the GC1 (the DGC1A) or the Pianodisc 228CFX. I know that the Disklavier basically comes with similar features to the 228 with all the optional add-ons (sound card, record strip, mute rail, extra storage sound chip). However, as the dealer is pricing the two, the Pianodisc would be about $1500 less, fully loaded (and we probably wouldn't be adding the record strip, mute rail, extra-storage sound chip or symphony feature right away, making the price difference for the initial sale closer to $3800).

Anyone have any thoughts as to the differences between these two systems? Is the Disklavier going to be worth $1500 more in a configuration with extremely similar features?

Thanks in advance.

Just a thought here. The GC1 is a "budget" Yamaha. It doesn't have a sostenuto pedal, it has thinner rims and less bracing than the C series Yamaha.

Why not consider the "Millenium" series K&C or Pramberger, Knabe,or Sohmer pianos? These are "top of the line" Korean products and many techs. and players prefer them today over the "middle of the line" Japanese products. You may even save a few $$$.(by the way many musicians simply would not consider a piano without a sostenuto pedal)

As far the player system, with proper installation the PDS system works well, so does the Disklavier. Choose what you like on that front.

Good Luck,

I'm with Rich. Keep shopping.

Thanks for the advice. Actually, we had decided to purchase the GC1 on the advice of a sales clerk who told us it was the exact same as the C1 (which I had really liked) in a case without a lock and some other minor features. After I came home and did some research on Pianoworld and other places, I realized that buying the GC1 would have been a mistake.

I went back and played a number of Yamaha C1s which I did truly enjoy and we've decided to jump up from the GC1 to the C1.

I think you still owe it to yourself try some of the other pianos, especially in an instance where the salesman was dishonest and gave you misinformation. As Steve said, for less money than a C1 you can find nicer pianos by YC Pramberger, Knabe, Kohler Millenium, etc...

Another possibility: the Kawai RX-1, which usually costs a bit less than the Yamaha C1 but has a warmer tone.

Osakans, I think you'll find that in general this Forum rarely recommends Yamahas. I personally really like them. As for the GC1, the differences between it and the C1 are (1) Case (incl. fallboard, locks, etc.), (2) Bass Sustain vs. Full Sostenuto, and (2) Hammer weight. Am I missing anything? Anyone?

Don't know about missing anything but I went through the same process and preferred the C1 over the GC1 (so went with that). Main creria for me was a "silent" system (not the full Disklavier) and I've not heard good things about retro-installing generic silent systems so the decision was partly taken for me (to go with the only factory installed, guaranteed, grand silent system I could get here).

When Bluthner, Boesendorfer, Steinway or Fazioli build a "silent system" grand max. length 180cm, I'll buy one immediately (not a joke). Until then, the Yamaha C1 is the best "bang for my buck" for me until these top brands drag themselves into the 21st century.

Yes, the people here very rarely recommend Yamaha. It's a bit like a Daihatsu car - no-one seems to admit to buying them but they are everywhere and very popular (at least in Europe). You can argue about the tone etc. but at the end of the day, I think there is a slight stigma associated with the name Yamaha...

Regards,

Gary.

DigJazz wrote:
Hi Dig,

I am not at my office right now and can't quote exact specs., but there is also a difference in structure, specifically in rim construction and material. This information comes from Yamaha tech. support (it isn't in product spec.) so I know it is accurate. I hope that helps.

Osakans, as to your original question... The answer is no. Go with the PianoDisc. It's the world's best selling player system, and has the advantage of (as you noted) modular upgrades, which to my knowledge Yamaha does not.

We've sold many dozens of PianoDisc systems with excellent results, no problems, no complaints. (The only problems I remember having, originated with the piano's action not being properly regulated.)

Also, although I think Yamaha is a consistently well-built piano, and a veritable workhorse, you may still end up with a better sounding piano if you opt for a larger model (within the same price range as a C1) Pramberger (Young Chang) or K&C Millenium (Samick). 5'3 compared to 5'9 or 6'1! And quality of build on these pianos is nothing to sneeze at, either, having improved quite a bit in the last 15 years.

BTW--when did Yamaha start retro-fitting their Disklavier system? I was under the impression it was only available factory-installed...unless they're sending the pianos back to the factory?!

-Jimbo

Note in reponse to Gary P

When Bluthner, Boesendorfer, Steinway or Fazioli build a "silent system" grand max. length 180cm, I'll buy one immediately (not a joke). Until then, the Yamaha C1 is the best "bang for my buck" for me until these top brands drag themselves into the 21st century.

Comparing a Yamaha C1 to any of the brands mentioned above is an uneducated exercise. Yamaha makes a good production piano that many people find attractive, but to suggest that they make instruments on par with Fazioli, Bluthner, or Bosendorfer is wishful thinking. The Yamaha C1 is a fairly good production instrument - that all.

What have you heard regarding retrofits? My experience is that a good system, installed by knowledgeable installers is every bit as good as factory installed. Yamaha used to have a big pitch against retrofits vs. factory installed, but i was smoke and mirrors. In the United States, Piano Disc is the top selling player system and includes a silent system. Currently, we sell 25% of our grands with them, and have had very few problems and complaints. The few problems we have had were easily rectified.

However, if you are looking for a better performing grand with the silent system, may I suggest you visit your local Seiler dealer? They do have a very effective silent system.

Thanks for all the help. To answer the various questions/suggestions that people have raised:

1. We decided to purchase the C1 during one of those "music conservatory sales" that piano dealers sometimes hold. We had gotten a letter in the mail suggesting that our local store (which is a reputable location, part of a substantial chain, and has been in the same location for at least 15 years) would have a large number of one-year used pianos on display. As I suspect all of you know (and I now know) that's not how these sales run, and they're really more opportunities for the stores to offer a few used pianos and a large number of new pianos at better discounts than they would ordinarily offer up front. (Albeit not discounts that wouldn't be available through decent negotiation at another time)

2. We had previously been to this dealer a few times and had been working with the store manager, a lovely gentleman who has the softest sell I've ever experienced. He's a person who obviously loves pianos, loves playing them, and loves spending his days around them. He also steered us away from a number of bad choices that would have made more money for the store and was the person who suggested that we would be nuts to buy a piano without playing the actual instrument (as opposed to just one of that model). Unfortunately, because the conservatory sale works somewhat differently at this store, we got paired for the sale with a different sales person who (after all was said and done) confided that his true passion is for drumming. He's the person who told us that the GC1 is basically the same thing as the C1 without the soft fallboard and locks. Thank goodness for "The Piano Book" and these forums. I wasn't 100% comfortable that I was getting accurate information at the store and before we committed to anything I told the salesman that we wanted to check with the resources we had at home, including sites like this. At the end of the day, we were able to work it out so that this person's involvement was minimized on our return to the store and we were mostly dealing with the store manager.

3. Our choice/comparison was between the Disklavier DGC1A/DC1A and the GC1/C1 with a PianoDisc retrofit. To my knowledge the Disklavier is still only available as factory installed.

4. The only differences anyone in the store could articulate between Disklavier and PianoDisc were 1) factory installation vs. retrofit and 2) 16 track sequencer on the Disklavier vs. 1 track on the PianoDisc. The store manager suggested that the only reason we'd get the Disklavier is if we wanted to use it to compose multi-track compositions.

5. I took 5-6 years of piano lessons as a child, but wouldn't pitch myself as a competent player. I can (with significant practice) play things like the Maple Leaf Rag, but that's really pushing my level of ability. Given my work schedule, I know it would be a fantasy to expect to be able to spend lots of time practicing -- this is likely to be a recreational instrument.

6. We actually don't have room with our room layout for a piano much larger than 5'3". The 5'3" size was a step up from the 4'7" Samick pianos we had been looking at and we were willing to do so because there was a quantum leap in touch and sound. We didn't perceive the same jump in going from 5'3" to 5'8".

7. Our key discriminating factors were a) touch and tone; b) whether or not the piano needed a lot of tweaking to make it sound the way it should -- something that immediately knocked out all the Indonesian made pianos even though I understand they may be just fine after a year or so of tweaking; and c) initial quality control and long term reliability. With those taken into account, and reading the entries in the Piano Book for some of the other brands people have recommended, my sense is that the only other option that would have served our needs as well would have been the Kawai RX-1 and we preferred the Yamaha to the Kawai.

Thanks again for all the help!

--Jeff

What happened to Gulbransen? Is that still around?

Uneducated exercise??? I never suggested that they were on par at all - they are way ahead (IMHO) of Yamaha. Having played some of them extensively (particularly Bluthner which is still in the family), I am fully aware of the difference. My statement was simply that my lifestyle, family, neighbourhood etc. does not permit a piano that cannot handle silent as well. However, I did want a grand that, when the weekend comes, I can play and have it sound okay. Hope that clears up any misunderstanding.

In terms of retrofitting silent systems (and pre-empting the next question to me in this thread), I have 2 dealers in town that say they've tried it and had nothing but problems over time. One of the dealers is the main Steinway dealer in Geneva and supplies many pianos for all of the concerts here so I tend to pay attention. He, in fact, now refuses to install any of the systems. The other will install but provide no reasonable guarantee. Since the conversations were in French, I was unable to get too buried in details but basically it came down to continual regulation of the silent system components required.

I'm curious though - how many people here (or that you know) have had silent systems retrofitted on the serious pianos (e.g. one of the 4 I mentioned earlier)? Any techs out there that regularly work on these systems and can confirm that there is no effect after the initial install/regulation?

Regards,

Gary.

Thanks for the information "Luke's Dad" - that's very interesting (and answers already some parts of the note I just posted). Do you retrofit any of the 4 that I mentioned earlier on a regular basis?

I wasn't going to start researching this stuff again until early 2004 when, with the deal I have on the C1S, I was going to review "silent" system pianos again to see what's changed and, if appropriate, swap it in for the agreed price or keep it for another year or two (i.e. until the right "silent" piano comes along).

Interesting what you say about Seiler - one of the local dealers here sells Seiler (I played one while I was on his shop floor) and he told me that the only factory installed, guaranteed systems were from Yamaha. Either they are not available in Switzerland or he was lying. In any event, I did buy there because a> the pianos in the showroom were badly prepared / tuned and b> dealing with him didn't feel right to me (despite his suit, he came across as a used car salesman).

Regards,

Gary.

We did stop installing the old Piano Disc Quit Time system a while back, I'm not even sure if they are still manufacturing them. However, the Piano Disc 228 system has a feature that can be installed that works pretty well. They install a mute rail where a bar prevents the hammer from striking the strings. Combined with a midirecord strip under the keys, and the symphony pro feature, you then have the equivalent to Yamaha's Silent Piano. Of course, the sound is only going to be as good as the sample and the speakers or headphones, so you may want to shop for an additional tone module and speakers as well. Give me a couple hours and I'll get you more info on Seiler's system.

We have installed many systems on Bosendorfers, Steinways, Mason & Hamlins, Knabes, Charles Walters, Estonias etc. both new and used and with great success. I would very strongly recommend that if you are in the price range of a DC1 Yamaha to consider an Estonia with a player system. The prices should be fairly close and I think that most people on here would agree that it is a higher quality piano (without going into the whole hand-made vs, mass produced thing).

Read the article in the current issue of Forbes magazine about the Estonia Piano Company, read what people are saying on here, and try to find a dealer in your area that can show you one before you make up your mind. Good luck and keep us posted!

Gary P, The name of Seiler's silent system is DuoVox. There is a great explanation of their system on Seiler's websight DuoVox

Also, I'm sorry, I didn't mention it before, but about 20% of the Steinways we sell have the PianoDisc 228 system with the mute rail.

Thanks RJ, that's good information. Actually, I'm not so much limited in money as fussy about not having to worry about when things go wrong (as I heard about the retrofit silent systems up until now). When I lease/purchased the C1S (not the Disklavier), I had already prepared to buy a Bosey they had on the shop floor which was a fantastic piano. It was then that I started hearing about the unreliability of silent systems which pushed me into the Yamaha. The whole reason I lease/purchased was precisely so that I had an agreed (and reasonably priced) option of changing if a piano I really liked came along with a silent system.

As I said, it's approaching time to start researching - I only have about 5 months before my "deal" runs out

I have played an Estonia by the way - it certainly wasn't a bad piano

Regards,

Gary.