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#343570 - 12/23/07 08:33 PM classical piano and piano jazz
christoff Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/28/07
Posts: 40
Loc: FRANCE
Hello,

What do you think about piano jazz versus piano classical ? The piano jazz could bring any good things to improve the rythm, the undertsanding of harmony ?...

Chris
_________________________
Jouer du piano, oui mais en chantant!

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#343571 - 12/23/07 09:59 PM Re: classical piano and piano jazz
pianojerome Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 9868
Piano classical encompasses a wide range of styles, just as does piano jazz. Neither is particularly narrow-minded, and they even share certain traits: complexity, standards survive the test of time, strong training, even in conservatories. Of course, they also merge stylistically with each other, because no man is an island:

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=vDWeGp4UE6M

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jW2l0BxDqMM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rvadPqgZc2A


Also, people often say that the major difference is that jazz = improvisation, and classical = playing exactly what's already written by others. Of course, this is not always true. Many pianists who play jazz can't improvise themselves, or don't want to -- they prefer to play the standards that were transcribed/arranged/composed by others. At the same time, many classical pianists/composers create their own music through improvisation, and by writing down these improvisations. Mozart improvised his own concerto cadenzas, and modern pianists Horowitz, Bolet, Cziffra, Pletnev, and Hamelin made up their own arrangements/improvisations based on classical pieces. Bartok and Rubinstein claimed to never play the same composition the same way twice, and Bartok freely changed notes/rhythms/registers etc in some of his recordings.

I think part of the valley between jazz and classical is man-made, too: the classical world immediately seperated itself from jazz; jazz was always mocked in the conservatories as child's play, "popular" music, therefore not "real" music, etc. Overtime, that man-made valley might get smaller, again because society demands it... or maybe not.
_________________________
Sam

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#343572 - 12/24/07 12:22 PM Re: classical piano and piano jazz
Gyro Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/24/05
Posts: 4533
In my view, they are about the same. The
basic principles are similar: chord progression,
melody, harmony, etc. I'm mainly a
classical player, but recently I've been
trying to get into jazz/popular playing in
a fairly big way. I've found that they
complement each other nicely: the strict
technical requirements in classical
help in jazz, which is maybe not so
strict about some of those things; while
the accent, "swing," and rubato needed
in jazz helps in classical, which has
gotten away from emphasis on those in
favor of flawless technique above all--to
its detriment.

Note that when you learn jazz/popular piano,
you are, paradoxically, taking a step
backwards in time to a more old-fashioned
approach to the piano than in classical piano.
This is how the classical composers learned
piano in the 17th to 19th centuries:
theory, composition, improvisation, ear
training. Pianists in that era played
their own compositions and were expected
to improvise on the spot. Today classical
pianists play music exactly as written
on the score, note perfect, with no notes
left out or added, and from memory. This
is a rather odd approach to music, and
classical piano is unique in that way.
Today there is no classical composition
or improvisation, so there is no need
for theory, improvisation, or ear training
in classical piano lessons, and classical
pianists are the worse for it.

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#343573 - 12/26/07 06:04 AM Re: classical piano and piano jazz
Disciple Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/27/07
Posts: 288
Loc: NYC
Same notes, same piano. Anything found in jazz, from linear to harmonic stretches and every phase in between can be found to have already been played/composed in "classical" music.

The language is identical. It's the inflection, the pronounciaton, and the propulsive breath given jazz that is the only audible difference. Yet this inflection, so subtle at times, changes this common language into a completely differing dialect.

In my Youtube video attached to my signature, you'll find that the aggregates comprising the harmonic counterpoint, sometimes of up to 15 notes, can all be found somewhere in late 19th through 20th century classical literature's piano or symphonic music. Ives, Honneger, Bartok, Varese, Xenakis, etc. It's the way they are put together in my performance and the inflections given each stretch in what I bring to the piano that make the playing pure jazz.
_________________________
My expansion of Lennie Tristano's Scene & Variation:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=5C5gnAqgttY&feature=user

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#343574 - 12/26/07 06:13 PM Re: classical piano and piano jazz
christoff Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/28/07
Posts: 40
Loc: FRANCE
That's right, we could say 'same notes, same piano'. But then what is the jazz exactly ? That is not one music but several musics ?

What is the difference in the method to work the piano beetween a classical pianist and a jazz pianist ?

I find the imrovisation of Disciple a little 'hard' with a langage complex.

for Disciple :
I don't understand exactly your idea or it is a simple demonstration of 'aggregates'. Have you follow a grid, form ?

'Joyeuses fĂȘtes'

Chris
_________________________
Jouer du piano, oui mais en chantant!

Top
#343575 - 12/26/07 08:38 PM Re: classical piano and piano jazz
Disciple Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/27/07
Posts: 288
Loc: NYC
 Quote:
Originally posted by christoff:
That's right, we could say 'same notes, same piano'. But then what is the jazz exactly ? That is not one music but several musics ?

What is the difference in the method to work the piano beetween a classical pianist and a jazz pianist ?

I find the imrovisation of Disciple a little 'hard' with a langage complex.

for Disciple :
I don't understand exactly your idea or it is a simple demonstration of 'aggregates'. Have you follow a grid, form ?

'Joyeuses fĂȘtes'

Chris [/b]
My video was one particular rendering of an improvisation by Lennie Tristano based on the melody and chord structure of Melacholy Baby.

Of interest, Lennie, in the manner of Bartok's Music for Percussion, Strings, and Celeste, took the first four chromatically ascending notes of melacholy baby, d, d#, e, f, and countered it with it's retrograde, d, dflat, c, b. What I did was to develop this idea further, constantly repeating this opening fan motif, repropagating it over and over through many different harmonically countrapuntal permutations, but ALL AS DICTATED BY THE EAR and intervallic gravitation set forth in motion in the opening two bars.

Even within up to 15 note aggregates, each component has it's own life, trajectory, and resolution. The language in which I'm speaking, the inflection, the bounce, is jazz. The elements are common to both jazz and 20th century classical music. This isn't patterned playing. It's instant composition based on the subject of the melody, drawn out into logically progressing linear stretches, superimposed upon one another.

Lennie Tristano, and myself, a 10 year student of his while he was alive, and a 30 year student of his music and unique concept since his death, were both influenced not only by jazz greats, like Charlie Parker and Earl Hines, but by 20th century composers like Ives, Stravinsky, and Shostokovich as well. I myself influenced a great deal by Sorabji as well.
_________________________
My expansion of Lennie Tristano's Scene & Variation:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=5C5gnAqgttY&feature=user

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