Hi,

I bought a Yamaha YUS 3 15 months ago and am so far happy with it - except for one small thing.

When I checked it at the dealer, the sound was great (not so bright actually, as they say about Yamahas),only 2 keys (E flat and E, the 2nd and 3rd note of the 2nd-highest register on that piano) were not perfect, they were a little bit, but audibly, brighter than their neighbours when loudly played. I pointed it out to the dealer (who is a "Klavierbaumeister" - that's the highest degree available for a piano technician available here in Germany), and he found that the 2 hammers did not hit the strings completely evenly and that it was easy to correct. And indeed, when the piano was delivered, he had corrected it.

However, it seems the problem always comes back after a few months. At the last tuning (technician from the same shop, but not the "Meister" himself), the 2 keys were voiced a bit to make them sound even again. Now, 5 months later, it is almost the same again.

Does that mean there is a more fundamental problem or is this normal (it is only a minor issue after all)? Any advice?

Thanks,
Oliver

Hi Oliver,

I’m not a tech per-se, but I’ll offer my .02; it sounds like you have two issues you are dealing with, hammer-to-string alignment and hammer voicing (although hammer-to-string alignment is a critical part of voicing). It seems to me that hammer voicing can be somewhat temporary but the hammer alignment should be more permanent.

Also, a slightly out-of-tune unison can stand out like a sore thumb, but I’m just speculating here. I’m sure many of the pro-techs will offer advice.

Best regards and good luck with your new piano.

Rickster

Voicing is something that is never permanent. The more a piano is used, the more frequently voicing needs to be done. You may practice one particular piece which uses a lot of similar notes or chording. Obviously, these notes then, get the most wear and tear. Maybe the next month, a different song requires different notes but yet, perhaps you are still using a couple of those not so nice sounding notes from before in this piece as well. This causes more wear and tear on the offending notes which will then also stick out more and more as time passes.

Each time the piano is tuned, and it should be tuned at least, twice per year, expect that voicing will also need to be done. Just like an alignment on a car needs to be done to keep the tires in tip top shape. But, hit a pot hole in the road in the next day or so, or play a really difficult, hard and long piece, and the alignment (voicing in this case) may need a bit of adjusting again.

Hi Jerry,

Great explanation regarding the ongoing need for voicing. However, it seems a little odd that the two primary problemmatic notes in question from Oliver’s post were there to start with (no long pieces or hard playing yet) until they were tweaked by the top-tech; a few months later, the same two notes are problematic again.

It seems to me there might be something going on with these two particular notes that is a little beyond normal wear and tear. I think that is Oliver’s question as well.

Best regards,

Rickster

Hi Guys,

It is so hard to know what a problem is from so far away. Best guessing is about the only thing we can do. A pianos tuning can change over night under various circumstances. We know that. Voicing can change fairly soon too at times depending on a lot of different things like humidity, screws working loose allowing the hammers to move over, flange pins slipping out, shanks warping, useage etc. There are many possible factors involved. Warranty problems may very well be one of them. I don't know from here.

I'm really not surprised that it has changed within a few months. When a hammer is traveling literally thousands upon thousands of different times upwards and downwards, forwards and backwards, fast as a bullet or slow as molasses, it puts a tremendous amount of strain and demands on those moving and stationary parts. Not to mention, a tiny groove in the hammer gets deeper and deeper on each strike. All that has to happen for that hammer to move over and for the tone to change, is for the hammer flange pin to elongate just a fraction, and now, that hammer is hitting in a different spot creating a different sound. Is this what happened? I do not know but, it is a possibility.

Many times too, there is a certain area in a piano that one person just isn't satisfied with which can make it difficult to eliminate. Especially if this person continues to look for that problem again.

no offense jerry, but it sounds like you're playing the devil's advocate here. oliver says this is the same two keys that originally had a problem. that seems fishy to me, considering the short amount of time involved here. all things being equal, it would seem that some other keys would start to have this problem too, over this same amount of time, if it were something normal and consistent for the entire piano.

is it possible that something in these particular keys (other than the hammer surfaces themselves) has worn or is broken and is causing the hammers to be misaligned? (i only guess that is the root cause because that's what the master tech attributed it to before)

Well, maybe I am. I certainly admit to not knowing what the problem is from here. I'm simply just tossing ideas out into the air of what it might be and here's why.

In the first statement, Oliver says that the two notes were not hitting the strings completely eveningly. The "Meister" himself says this was the problem. This doesn't make much sense to me as being the cause of those notes being brighter unless I'm missing something here. If they were not striking the strings squarely, in all reality, you should lose tone, not gain it. So, that part is a bit puzzeling.

Next, Oliver says the following technicians voiced it and that solved the problem. That makes me wonder what REALLY is going on because this time there nothing was mentioned about hammers not hitting squarely.

I can tell you one thing for sure. Nothing is normal or consistent for any piano.

What do you other techs think about this one? I'm tired of blowing hot air on this one. It's your turn. :-)

Hi Jerry,

Every time you blow hot air our brains are stimulated a little and we learn something . By all means, don’t stop .

Oliver’s post reinforces my theory that if a piano exhibits problems from the get-go, caution is advised. It’s kind of like test driving a new car that has a certain abnormal vibration and the salesman says “O don’t worry about that, the service department can take care of that for you”. Ask me how I know this.

Best regards,

Rickster

Thanks to all for your thoughts. I guess I need to go back to the dealer and just ask him what he thinks (hoping he tells me the truth). After all, I have a 5-years warranty.

Oliver

One possibility is that the original problem was the angle of the hammer was off, so they weren't hitting the string squarely.

If he corrected it by heating the shank and twisting it back into position (a common practice), the shank make have torqued back.

Good point. In that case the hammer should be pulled and re-glued. String levelling needs to be checked, too.

If shank twist is not an issue, perhaps the original voicing which helped temporarlity was too superficial and deep needling would give a longer lasting result.

I hope it is OK to revive this thread. I did not get around much to piano-playing in the last 2 years (other things had higher priority) so there has not been much progress.

After my last post, I had a technician from the dealer at home. He checked everything and said there is nothing wrong with the piano, the slightly brighter sound when played loud is probably just some kind of resonance effect due to the scaling of the piano which should best be corrected by voicing. Does that make any sense?

Anyway, the keys were voiced again and same as before, it was OK for some time and then the issue returned. Interestingly, now one more key is affected, and the picture is:

D - slightly brighter ("normal" before)
E flat - brighter than the neighbours
E - slightly brighter
F - "normal"
F sharp, G etc. - actually also a bit sound brighter
It is probably important to know that D is the lowest note of the treble register.

Now, what I am personally thinking: maybe it is just a combination of a brighter treble register and uneven voicing at the factory (D and F voiced mellow so that the keys in between stick out). What do you think?

Now, that can be corrected with proper voicing, right? But what is needed to make the voicing more permanent?

The technician comes again this week, will tune the piano and surely voice again if asked, but I suspect it will be only temporary again :-(

First, you should try to rotate the piano or add thick carpets under the piano and see what differences it might result in. Eliminate resonance possibilities.

Obviously, stop playing those notes so hard... the harder you bang them, the brighter they get. But reality is that notes in the middle will get played more and grow bright faster. Thus the more you play the more it needs to be voiced.

Practice more scales in all keys. They are good for your technique and also help even things out. If you like the brighter tone... why not.

Actually, yes, it does make sense. In reading back over your earlier posts I’d guess (and it is just that—a guess) that your piano has a nice strong soundboard resonance right at the frequency of these notes. If so then you do have a permanent problem. Other than modifying the ribbing or mass-loading the soundboard through the affected area it is not something the dealer and/or his technicians can do much about other than voice it down when it becomes objectionable.

ddf

Thanks for your answers -

John - It is not the room, we moved to another apartment recently and it was the same before and after. But yes, I tend to play loud at times and that probably aggravates the issue.

Del - thanks, I discussed it yesterday again with the technician and he things it might be that plus maybe a slight difference in the strings or the way the strings are mounted (no difference visible however) on the "main offender". It is really only audible when the hammer hits the strings with a very high amount of energy (or more precisely, when energy is released in very short time), so voicing does help if it reduces that energy. He did some voicing to tone it down (needed anyway because the new apartment has a hardwood floor) and now it is almost not noticeable unless I press down the sustain pedal and hit the key very hard. I think I can live with that.

I also asked about the longevity of the voicing he did and he said that when the piano is still new (and I did not play a lot the last 2 or so year, so has not seen so much use) any voicing done tends to be less stable. It should get better as the piano settles down.

So I am now moderately optimistic ... and also, maybe I am simply too critical (I used to have a Digital Piano before, which of course has perfect voicing). I should probably play more real music and stop comparing individual keys :-)