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#34527 - 02/19/08 02:26 PM Boston Piano Pricing
rickms63 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/25/07
Posts: 59
I just got back from my local Steinway dealer and played a few of the Boston grands. I really liked them. I just having a hard time with the price. I understand the Steinway pianos are not discounted but the dealer is also saying the Boston are also fixed. I really like the Bostons but damn, I can get an Kawai RX for $5000 or so less. Are these Boston's overpriced, am I just paying for the name? Also, does
anyone buy the argument that the larger sound board really makes the piano "sound" a few feet bigger?

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#34528 - 02/19/08 03:13 PM Re: Boston Piano Pricing
Sir Lurksalot Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/19/04
Posts: 1237
 Quote:
anyone buy the argument that the larger sound board really makes the piano "sound" a few feet bigger?
A few FEET? Longer? NO.

 Quote:
Are these Boston's overpriced, am I just paying for the name?
I can't comment on whether they're overpriced, but I've observed that virtually nobody calls them underpriced or a fantastic bargain.

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#34529 - 02/19/08 04:08 PM Re: Boston Piano Pricing
Glenn Grafton Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/28/05
Posts: 190
Loc: Souderton PA
I'll try to answer your questions.

First off, if the wide tail design offered as many tonal advantages as they claim on the Boston piano then you would think that that they would also use that on the pianos that Steinway builds. They don't.

For example with a 5'10 3/4" Steinway model O the total square inch area of the sound board is 1946. On their Boston model GP-178 it's 2020. If the total square inch area of the sound board was such a critical point don't you think that the Steinway model would have a larger area?

What you've encountered is the fact that Steinway has a limited number of dealers in a given geographical area. Think about it — if there were one Ford dealer in a 150 mile radius of where you live what would that do to the pricing of a car you might be considering. The dealers obviously love it as they can command higher prices and margins.

As far as pricing goes, the latest Ancott Music Product Directory has the comparable Boston and Kawai models priced as follow:

Boston 5'10" GP-178 $24,300
Kawai 5'10" RX-2 $22,990

The prices above are at the same dealer mark up percentage. The extra difference is dealer profit.

One thing that you have not mentioned is the differences. One of the major advantages of that the Kawai RX models have over the Boston is the Millenium III Action . The three main advantages that you get from this action are:

• Longer term action regulation.
• Better control on pianissimo passages.
• 25% faster repetition.

My take is that the typical Boston customer has the feeling that they are buying a "Boston by Steinway" piano. They feel good with the brand name and therefore will pay more. Don't get me wrong; Kawai, Boston and Steinway are all excellent pianos.

For what it's worth I've spoken with a piano tech at an "all Steinway University" He told me that he actually prefers even the older Kawai KG series to a new Boston grand.

The scale designs of the Boston grands were done by Kawai engineers on Kawaii CAD machines in Japan.

Bottom line, play the pianos, listen and compare. Forget about the branding and image.
_________________________
Glenn Grafton
Grafton Piano & Organ Co.
Souderton PA
877-GRAFTON (877-472-3866)
Remove "nospam" in email address.
glenn@nospamgraftonpiano.com

Grafton Piano Home Page

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#34530 - 02/19/08 04:19 PM Re: Boston Piano Pricing
Sir Lurksalot Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/19/04
Posts: 1237
 Quote:
The scale designs of the Boston grands were done by Kawai engineers on Kawaii CAD machines in Japan.
Countdown to Pianomadam’s post about the "Steinway-designed Boston and Essex pianos"…

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#34531 - 02/19/08 04:47 PM Re: Boston Piano Pricing
rickms63 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/25/07
Posts: 59
I've had quotes for the RX-2 that have been substantially lower then the $22.9K. The Boston at least with my dealer seems to be fixed. That is a big difference.

Boston 5'10" GP-178 $24,300
Kawai 5'10" RX-2 $22,990

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#34532 - 02/19/08 04:53 PM Re: Boston Piano Pricing
byebye Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/18/03
Posts: 1426
rick,

You figured it out very quickly.

Five years ago I bought an Estonia for the price of an ESSEX.

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#34533 - 02/19/08 05:08 PM Re: Boston Piano Pricing
theJourney Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/22/07
Posts: 3946
Loc: Banned
You definitely can get an RX-2 for less than your amounts. The price difference between RX-2 and the Boston is for higher overhead and higher profits. If you really prefer the Boston and don't care about the money or overpaying, get the Boston. The wide tail, designed by Steinway, blah blah is marketing talk to justify the price difference.

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#34534 - 02/19/08 05:16 PM Re: Boston Piano Pricing
rickms63 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/25/07
Posts: 59
 Quote:
Originally posted by theJourney:
You definitely can get an RX-2 for less than your amounts. The price difference between RX-2 and the Boston is for higher overhead and higher profits. If you really prefer the Boston and don't care about the money or overpaying, get the Boston. The wide tail, designed by Steinway, blah blah is marketing talk to justify the price difference. [/b]
Actually, I really did like the Boston over the RX-2. But money is an issue. I'm going to continue to look around. There is a Brodmann dealer which I'm going to visit this weekend. I'm looking under $14K for a 6'2" for the Brodmann.

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#34535 - 02/19/08 05:27 PM Re: Boston Piano Pricing
Utrumpet Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/12/05
Posts: 154
Loc: Utah
You may see if you can find a Young Chang Platinum dealer as well. These are the original Young Chang built, Pramberger Platinum pianos and they are a great sounding and playing piano. They definitely are worth a look if you're in that quality range. The YP-175 would be the comparable model.
_________________________
Piano consultant.
Riverton Music
Salt Lake City, UT
(801)255-8300

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#34536 - 02/19/08 10:26 PM Re: Boston Piano Pricing
swampwiz Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/07/07
Posts: 561
Loc: Louisiana, USA
My opinion is that the whole idea of the wide tail of the Boston is so that it tunes into the mid-bass segment of the scale. This has the effect of making the bass sound boomier, which for folks accustomed to the sound of a cheap grand, may sound appealing. Not a whole lot unlike a cheap audio loudspeaker that is tuned to a mid bass frequency to make the bass sound fuller. With all that said, the effect tends to work for the smaller grands in the Boston line.

As for the value of the Boston, it is overpriced, and the Kawai RX is easily a better choice. The only redeeming value of a Boston is that it can be traded in for a Steinway (I suppose that is Steinway dealer has already made a big fat profit on you from the Boston, he doesn't need to do so with the Steinway.)

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#34537 - 02/19/08 11:15 PM Re: Boston Piano Pricing
cscl Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/13/07
Posts: 255
Loc: Suburban Boston
I liked the Bostons as well and they came highly recommended to me when I was in the shopping phase. I liked the sound, I liked the feel.

However, I never was comfortable with the expense, never was sold on the importance of the Steinway connection and was nervous about the fact that Kawais didn't appeal to me, there's got to be a lot of Kawai qualities in the Bostons, so how much could I really like the Bostons? Why not get a Kawai, and I knew I didn't want a Kawai.

Everything I had to say about my Boston experience can be found here .

In the end, I did like the Boston second best, but my first choice won out: Estonia 190.

Good luck!
_________________________
cscl
Estonia 190 Satin Ebony
ABF Recitals: x9 — Studio Recitals: x17
*

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#34538 - 02/20/08 03:32 AM Re: Boston Piano Pricing
Glenn Treibitz Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/10/05
Posts: 541
Loc: Los Angeles/Burbank
 Quote:
Originally posted by Utrumpet:
You may see if you can find a Young Chang Platinum dealer as well. These are the original Young Chang built, Pramberger Platinum pianos and they are a great sounding and playing piano. They definitely are worth a look if you're in that quality range. The YP-175 would be the comparable model. [/b]
Also try the Pramberger designed Albert Weber by Young Chang. It offers an amazing amount of piano bang for the piano buck. Hand built for the price of mass produced.
_________________________
Glenn Treibitz

Hollywood Piano Co. - Est.1928
http://www.hollywoodpiano.com
http://www.facebook.com/HollywoodPiano

1800 MY-PIANO

Grotrian, Mason&Hamlin, Estonia,Schulze Pollmann,Albert Weber,Baldwin,Brodmann,Ritmuller,Weber,Hardman,Roland,Kurzweil, Used Steinway,Yamaha,Kawai

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#34539 - 02/20/08 04:03 AM Re: Boston Piano Pricing
theJourney Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/22/07
Posts: 3946
Loc: Banned
I played a Brodmann recently and was also impressed with it. Particularly for smaller quarters, it had more of an intimate sound than a booming, piercing RX-2.

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#34540 - 02/20/08 02:50 PM Re: Boston Piano Pricing
Kenny Blankenship Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/25/05
Posts: 659
Loc: Northeast
What Glenn said...
_________________________
Kenny Blankenship
Selling anything anyone will buy as the "Walmartizisation of the industry continues. (Still making a fair living and still having clients like me)

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#34541 - 02/20/08 03:50 PM Re: Boston Piano Pricing
Norbert Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/03/01
Posts: 13974
Loc: Surrey, B.C.
 Quote:
Albert Weber by Young Chang. It offers an amazing about of piano bang for the piano buck. Hand built for the price of mass produced.
It's that a bit of a stretch? \:\(

 Quote:
In the end, I did like the Boston second best, but my first choice won out: Estonia 190.
surprise, suprise...

Norbert ;\)
_________________________
www.heritagepianos.com
Greater Vancouver B.C. piano dealers for : C.Sauter, Estonia, Brodmann, Ritmuller
604-951-8642

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#34542 - 02/20/08 09:48 PM Re: Boston Piano Pricing
Glenn Treibitz Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/10/05
Posts: 541
Loc: Los Angeles/Burbank
 Quote:
Originally posted by Norbert:
[QB] [QUOTE]Albert Weber by Young Chang. It offers an amazing amount of piano bang for the piano buck. Hand built for the price of mass produced.
It's that a bit of a stretch? \:\( [QUOTE]

No Norbert. They are hand crafted pianos with hard wood inner and outer rim. They had been using maple and are now switching to beech. Renner actions, renner blue hammers. Kind of an amazing package for the price and has a very "European" kind of tone. On our floor it is a good combination with the more "Steinway Like" sound of the Brodmann pianos. With the 2 we can really give the consumer 2 quality pianos in a similar range with two very different sound characters.
_________________________
Glenn Treibitz

Hollywood Piano Co. - Est.1928
http://www.hollywoodpiano.com
http://www.facebook.com/HollywoodPiano

1800 MY-PIANO

Grotrian, Mason&Hamlin, Estonia,Schulze Pollmann,Albert Weber,Baldwin,Brodmann,Ritmuller,Weber,Hardman,Roland,Kurzweil, Used Steinway,Yamaha,Kawai

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#34543 - 02/21/08 10:52 PM Re: Boston Piano Pricing
Pianomadam Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/18/07
Posts: 416
Loc: Southern United States
"I understand the Steinway pianos are not discounted but the dealer is also saying the Boston are also fixed"

---You are correct on the Steinways, except for a couple of sales a year. I can, of course, only speak for my store. With the Boston pianos, the prices are not fixed. What does that mean anyway? What it comes down to is the price your quoted and whether the price quoted is at a high or low margin to the dealer cost. In other words, if the "retail" price (again, who knows what that really is) is $30,000 and the dealer quotes you $25,000, but knows he can go down to $23,500 to still maintain an OK margin, than the price is not "fixed". If he quoted you $23,500, than he may not have any more room to go down below that price.

I would compare any price you get to research you're able to do on the price...this may involve reading (i.e. Fine, Ancott), or participating in forums like this one.

"Also, does anyone buy the argument that the larger soundboard really makes the piano "sound" a few feet bigger?"

---a few inches bigger, yes. Ultimately, you are the judge, though. Not only does Boston have a wider tail, and thus more square inches of soundboard, but they also taper the soundboard so as to give more flexibility and color to the tone.

"The scale designs of the Boston grands were done by Kawai engineers on Kawaii CAD machines in Japan"

---Correct, but your attempt to discredit Steinway's involvement is clear. Steinway fully-desinged the piano. Kawai makes it for them.
_________________________
PianoMadam

Family of Steinway-Designed Pianos (Steinway & Sons, Boston, Essex) Dealer

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#34544 - 02/22/08 01:35 AM Re: Boston Piano Pricing
schwammerl Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/16/06
Posts: 2011
Loc: Belgium
 Quote:
"The scale designs of the Boston grands were done by Kawai engineers on Kawaii CAD machines in Japan"
..and..

 Quote:
---Correct, but your attempt to discredit Steinway's involvement is clear. Steinway fully-desinged the piano. Kawai makes it for them.
Pianomadam isn't this a contradiction when you say it is 'correct' that 'the scale designs of the Boston grands were done by Kawai engineers' and then continue with 'Steinway fully-designed the piano'? I don't follow here.

I even once read (quite some time ago on this forum, but can't find it back unless I would search for half a day) that the scale was actually not done by Kawai but that the design existed/prototypes were made before Steinway even contacted any third party to manufacture the Boston grands and yes ultimately chose Kawai?

schwammerl.

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#34545 - 02/22/08 05:00 AM Re: Boston Piano Pricing
rickms63 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/25/07
Posts: 59
 Quote:
Originally posted by Pianomadam:
"I understand the Steinway pianos are not discounted but the dealer is also saying the Boston are also fixed"

---You are correct on the Steinways, except for a couple of sales a year. I can, of course, only speak for my store. With the Boston pianos, the prices are not fixed. What does that mean anyway? \ [/b]
What I am saying is that the dealer had the boston tagged at retail and would not discount from that price.

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#34546 - 02/22/08 05:29 AM Re: Boston Piano Pricing
theJourney Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/22/07
Posts: 3946
Loc: Banned
 Quote:
Originally posted by Pianomadam:
With the Boston pianos, the prices are not fixed. What does that mean anyway?

In other words, if the "retail" price (again, who knows what that really is)

I would compare any price you get to research you're able to do on the price...this may involve reading (i.e. Fine, Ancott), or participating in forums like this one.

"The scale designs of the Boston grands were done by Kawai engineers on Kawaii CAD machines in Japan"

---Correct, Steinway fully-desinged the piano. Kawai makes it for them. [/b]
LOL. Pianomadam's posts are certainly getting more and more entertaining!

If you want straight talk on pricing, forget it. Even the dealers/salespeople don't know what "fixed" means or what the retail prices are.

My favorite:
Steinway didn't design their Bostons, Kawai did. Steinway just took the song out of them!

Keep 'em coming.

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#34547 - 02/22/08 01:33 PM Re: Boston Piano Pricing
rickms63 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/25/07
Posts: 59
The dealer have a price sheet from Steinway/Boston. Those prices I assumed were retail costs and those were in fact the price the dealer was willing to sell the piano for.

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#34548 - 02/22/08 01:41 PM Re: Boston Piano Pricing
MusiqArtisan Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 02/21/08
Posts: 5
Loc: Louisville, Kentucky
I can't comment on the pricing of the Boston pianos, but I suppose the pricing is similar to that of the Essex pianos.

I just got an Essex 5'3" grand in black. The retail tag was around $14,000 (from what I can recall) and I paid around $12,500 for the piano.

I chose my instrument based on touch and tone alone (not the parts or "story" that I was given by some stores).

Although the process of buying the piano was confusing to say the least, I did find comfort in one aspect. When I called around to the different dealers (cincinatti, Louisville, Nashville, etc.) I got a quote that was nearly exact.

When I called around about other pianos (I won't mention brands or stores) I would get a quote at one store for $25,000...another store for $18,000...and so on. Even worse, some of these stores would call me back with better prices, on MULTIPLE occasions.
In some cases, the pianos had "special reasons" why they were being discounted. when I told one of the stores that I had purchased a piano already, the salesperson told me that he could have beat the price (which happens to be nearly 50% of the retail price that I was originally quoted on the exact same piano).

I found the whole process of pricing pianos to be very tiresome.

I began to think that pianos have no REAL value.

However, I did choose one and have been very pleased.

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#34549 - 02/22/08 01:46 PM Re: Boston Piano Pricing
theJourney Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/22/07
Posts: 3946
Loc: Banned
Great Post MusiqArtisan. Welcome!

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#34550 - 02/22/08 11:14 PM Re: Boston Piano Pricing
Marty Flinn Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/25/06
Posts: 2604
Essex 5'3" price $12,500.
Pearl River (maker of the Essex) 5'3" street price $7,000.
Paying a 79% premimum for the cache of the association with Steinway is pretty stiff.
_________________________
Co-Author of The Complete Idiot's Guide To Buying A Piano. A "must read" before you shop.
Work for west coast dealer for Yamaha, Schimmel, Bosendorfer, Wm. Knabe.

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#34551 - 02/22/08 11:53 PM Re: Boston Piano Pricing
Pianomadam Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/18/07
Posts: 416
Loc: Southern United States
"Essex 5'3" price $12,500. Pearl River (maker of the Essex) 5'3" street price $7,000.
Paying a 79% premimum for the cache of the association with Steinway is pretty stiff"

---Spoken like a true Pearl River dealer...feel free to read all about the Essex at Steinway.com and compare it to the specs of the Pearl River.....quite different.
_________________________
PianoMadam

Family of Steinway-Designed Pianos (Steinway & Sons, Boston, Essex) Dealer

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#34552 - 02/23/08 12:53 PM Re: Boston Piano Pricing
MusiqArtisan Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 02/21/08
Posts: 5
Loc: Louisville, Kentucky
Mr. Flinn,

I was so excited to find a forum about my life's passion. Thank you for responding to, what I thought was helpful information for someone who might be going through the purchase process, with a negative spin about my purchase.

Actually, I chose my piano based on how it plays (i.e. touch and tone) not based on the specification chart that almost every dealer pulled out to convince me NOT to buy the piano I chose. But I guess that is because they didn't carry the piano I favored.

Thanks for CONTINUING to make the piano purchase process less enjoyable than buying a used car from a dealer that rolls the miles back a couple of years.

I did look at Pearl River and played one right beside the piano I purchased. Frankly, it looked and sounded like every other piano from China and even i could tell a difference in the quality difference.

Of course, I guess this forum could be used for dealers to argue over who makes the best piano.

hopefully, someone will read this forum and choose a piano based on what it sounds like, which is what the point is after all!

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#34553 - 02/23/08 02:41 PM Re: Boston Piano Pricing
tigermike Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 01/26/08
Posts: 13
Loc: Little Rock, AR
I think the dealer is the key- our local Steinway dealer was more aggressive in his pricing on the recent Boston 118s upright I recently purchased than the local Kawai dealer was on a UST9. Having liked both pianos well enough, the Boston was cheaper and therefore to me a better value. One may debate the extent to which a Boston piano is really Steinway as much as it is Kawai...but even if it's mostly Kawai with a smidge of Steinway influence, I don't see that as a negative, but a positive collaboration between two respected piano manufacturers.

All that being said, if the Boston was at a significant premium to a like instrument by Kawai, I would probably pick the Kawai...it just wasn't the case with my purchase.

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#34554 - 02/23/08 07:45 PM Re: Boston Piano Pricing
Craigen Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/01/05
Posts: 1815
Loc: West Coast
Thank you Madam. I did and here is what I found.

Supposedly the tail of the Essex is broader offering more soundboard area. Not so.
Essex model 161 = 1718 sq"
Pearl model 159 = 1798 sq".

Back-post bracing system supposedly unique to Essex. Not so. exactly the same in Pearl.

Tapered soundboard = both.

Ribs notched into the liner = both.

Here are the differences I have found:
Essex has a solid board
Pearl has a laminated board
Play the pianos and listen to the sound.
Do you hear a difference. I do not.
Essex has a duplex scale.
Pearl does not.
Play the piano and listen to the sound.
Do you hear a difference. I do not.
_________________________
Piano Technician, member Piano Technicians Guild.

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#34555 - 02/23/08 08:56 PM Re: Boston Piano Pricing
John Mila Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/11/08
Posts: 245
Loc: So California
Pianomadam,
Are the Essex's the same as they were when Young Chang made them?
Or were they very 'similar' to the Young Chang at the time?
I sell Pearl River too, but I also sold Young Chang when they were Essex.
If the design changed, (and it did) why?
If it were Steinway design.
_________________________
John Mila de la Roca, Manager
Keyboard Concepts, Tustin CA
714-544-0088
Yamaha-Schimmel-Bosendorfer
Piano Tuner/Tech 30 years
john.miladelaroca@keyboardconcepts.com
keyboardconcepts.com

Yamaha C3-KorgN364-Kurzweil K2500-Yamaha P200-Roland Ax1 & Les Paul Custom gold Top 57 re-issue and 6 nameless guitars.

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#34556 - 02/23/08 09:02 PM Re: Boston Piano Pricing
Marty Flinn Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/25/06
Posts: 2604
MusiqArtisan,

Please accept my public appology. My post was out of line. Clearly you did your shopping and made a buying decision based on your own set of criteria. I see you are new to the forum. My post was hardly a welcome. Please allow me to start over.
Welcome to the forum MusiqArtisan. Congratulations on your new piano.
_________________________
Co-Author of The Complete Idiot's Guide To Buying A Piano. A "must read" before you shop.
Work for west coast dealer for Yamaha, Schimmel, Bosendorfer, Wm. Knabe.

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