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In a recent quest to begin breaking through some speed barriers in my playing, I read somewhere that unless you learn the "thumb-over" technique, you will never be able to attain to higher speeds. In theory, every thing that was said about the thumb's vertical movement limitations, etc, were logical (I think the author was Chang?). But when I sat down and began to finger some scales with the thumb crossing over, everything ground to a halt. What am I missing here? I can't see how in the world you could cross over with this technique. I've asked several more accomplished pianists this question and each time I get the raised eyebrows...

it's basically hand shifting technique: you shift your hand over and position your thumb at the next note you play. for example, C major scale:

123(shift hand and position your thumb)1234

this is for upward scale only, on the down side, do as usual.

Is this a recommended technique? Should I work on developing this instead of the traditional thumb-under?

It's not non-traditional. "Thumb under" is actually pretty rare - only practical at slower tempi that require legato. All the fast stuff is accomplished by "thumb over" hand position shifting.

So "thumb over" is really a misnomer? The idea isn't to move the thumb over the hand, but simply to just shift the thumb over to the next key, right?

This really confused me when I read about it in Chang's book, but I think I understand now.

So I guess I'll work on that, seeing that my issue is not being able to go fast...

Correct!

what the heck.......i always used my thum under technique for fast stuff. but thanks alot, now i know.

is this for this for the left hand also....like in chopin's revolutionary etude???

I don't understand the difference between these two. Can someone explain in more detail?

It's for both hands.

It's nearly impossible to explain but fairly easy to demonstrate. There's really only a small subtle difference between the two.

When you cross under, the thumb is directly underneath another finger at some point.

When you "cross over," the natural rotation of the wrist brings the thumb slightly up and into position for the next group of notes. (For example, in a RH E Major scale, after you play the EF#G#, the wrist rotates slightly as the elbow moves to the right, thus placing the thumb directly over the A but not directly under any other fingers...)

Interesting. I've always used thumb-under. But I guess when you play a scale very fast, it automatically becomes thumb over in a way. Anyway, doesn't it seem that you can play quicker scales thumb-under since your thumb would already be in the position? (But again, when you go fast, thumb-under kind of turns into thumb-over right?)

So that's why I always see pianist's hands raise in fast scaler passages. I was wondering what they were doing.

How fast should a scale be in order to require or prefer the thunb over technique? For example, which technique would be preferable for the E major scale at the end of the Chopin Scherzo in E? Does the answer to the question depend on the skill/preferences of the player? Are there gradations of technique in between the the methods?

With the right hand thumb on F# and the other fingers on A#,C#,D# and F natural respectively, and with the hand toward the rear of the keys, repeat the group upwards in a fast, smooth arpeggio. The sensation of "thumb over" is more or less forced on you because you can't get it smooth and fast any other way. Then just remember the sensation and apply it to scales and other figures.

I don't really play a lot of classical music, Pianoloverus, but as far as what I do play is concerned, yes, I find there is a gradation available for most figures.

I did lessons for around 8 years until around 7 years ago. I was only taught thumb under. I had tried to learn some pieces which involved fast ascending scales, like Chopin Prelude No.24, and I always hit a wall. I wondered why I could fly down a 3 octave decending scale in maybe 2 seconds, but not ascending.
Recently I read that book by that guy, 'Chuan C. Chang'. I thought that he was trying to make some joke when he talks about the thumb over. Then I read the line; "Students who have learned only thumb under will have a hard time trying to understand how anybody could play thumb over". So I'm currently trying to convert. I'm beginning to get the hang of it.
Should the wrist be rotating, leaning onto the little finger' side of the hand? Take a C major scale first 3 notes, CEG fingered 1 2 3. As we go to the 3rd finger, should the forearm rotate slightly clockwise, moving the thumb higher, but horizontally closer to it's next note?

And as for decending, somebody said that you just do it as normal. Chang says that it shouldn't be thumb under, but the way thumb-under students play, they're a bit closer to the correct movement. Opinions?

As I understand it, the "Thumb Over" technique entails rotating your hand when it is time to do the thumb pass, in order to let the thumb come down vertically instead of move horizontally under the passed fingers(when ascending on the keyboard). A quick flick of the wrist and forearm is characteristic of the "Thumb Over" technique.

i'm practicing this very technique on the c major scale. i can be insanely fast with my right hand when descending, but ascending the scale is always slower. but i have noticed getting faster at it each time i practice. the 123-1234 thumbing becomes tricky.

it's also triky when playing a descending scale with your left hand.

practice. practice. practice.

and when you think you've practiced enough.

practice. practice. and practice some more.

repeat. :-)