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#357026 - 01/28/05 09:48 AM Re: Is music proof of God?
AaronSF Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/07/04
Posts: 732
Loc: San Francisco
Double post, sorry!
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Aaron

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#357027 - 01/28/05 09:50 AM Re: Is music proof of God?
AaronSF Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/07/04
Posts: 732
Loc: San Francisco
 Quote:
Originally posted by TimR:
The rest of your post is simply "argument from incredulity." Basically this boils down to "I personally am not able to understand how something complex could evolve, therefore it must not have." This is just plain silly, it doesn't make a case either for or against. You could be right or wrong, but this is not the argument to use.[/b]
Thanks, Tim. I couldn't agree with you more.

Evolution is a scientific theory, backed by empirical evidence. It is not a belief structure. If someone could prove to me that there was a better scientific explanation for how life came to be, I'd say great, I'll go with that then. But these I.D. people, coming from a belief framework, spin evolution into a belief system and try to cast those of us who think it is a good explanation as acolytes to the religion of evolution. It's ludicrous and would be laughable if these people had not succeeded in promoting their anti-intellectual ideas in our public schools.

I suppose it's no surprise they would think up this patently bogus attack on science. Their "science" is "faith based," so rigorous proof isn't required. If you can't explain a complex system, then it must be proof of I.D. (which is obviously just God in a professor's robes). That anyone can think the presence of unexplained phenomena is proof of the existence of I.D. is, frankly, frightening. It's the worst sort of anti-intellectualism, and in our poor country where "dumbing down" has apparently become a full-time profession of the religious right, this is a new low. Talk about hypocracy. Presenting I.D. as a valid "scientific" alternative to evolution is the height of hyprocracy and cynicism, as it contains not one ounce of science and is obviously religion thinly veiled. It's really sickening.

The worst of it is, I don't really care what religious beliefs people have or how they express them as long as they do not try to impose their religious beliefs on our government and its institutions by institutionalizing those beliefs in our government. Requiring a school district to teach I.D. along side evolution as though it were science is just such an intrusion. It is, at the very least, unconstitutional, and at most, quite dangerous. Dangerous because, left unchecked, it will succeed in inhibiting intellectual curiosity and stifling intellectual progress.

My greatest objection to these people's misguided and dangerous efforts is the blatant anti-intellectualism -- the notion that faith and intelligence cannot coexist, that intelligence must ultimately subjugate itself to faith and, if faith appears to contradict intelligence, then intelligence is given the old heave-ho. Oh yes, this is the way to progress! Progress back into another Dark Ages where we will have to, once again, recant that the earth is round and not the center of the universe. I won't let our society sink back into that "unevolved" slime willingly!

If Galileo had never been forced to recant, if science didn't have to live underground for centuries of our history, if pseudo-science had never been used to promote all manner of misdeeds and crimes against humankind, if Poh Pat had never killed 2.5 million Cambodians for being "intellectuals"...the list could go on...if none of these things had happened, I wouldn't worry quite so much. But I do worry. History does repeat itself.
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Aaron

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#357028 - 01/28/05 05:04 PM Re: Is music proof of God?
pianojerome Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 9868
 Quote:
Originally posted by Rockitman:
Well Dammit, if there is a God, why doesn't he/she just show himself to us so we don't have to be in doubt our whole lives?
What is his purpose of hiding/not revealing himself?
I would think this would be one peaceful world if he would just show up once in a while.
I don't know, maybe on Leno or Letterman. You know, once a year or so, just to let us know he's here and watching.
That felt good. [/b]
G-d shows his presence every day. In other words - miracles, coincidences, luck...
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#357029 - 01/28/05 05:57 PM Re: Is music proof of God?
FranklySpeaking Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/22/04
Posts: 273
Loc: Texas
AaronSF,
Good post! (don't agree with all of it but nicely done..)
One of the biggest problems science has is at the earliest points ...ie. from a soup of chemicals came "poof" life - even a single cell organism is tremendously complicated and requires numerous subsystems to all be functioning at the same time (multi-layer cell membrane, mitochondria etc. ) - some call it "lightening struck the junk yard and 747 emerged" \:D problem...

the other big area is from the bacteria and/or single cell to the larger creature .... internal organs, all the hormonal, digestive, nervous systems, senses etc. etc. all come into being at the same time to produce a viable organism...

the more we know about life on a sub cellular or even atomic level its a wonder any of us are here to discuss it at all

in comparison to these problems the differentiation of species is not nearly as difficult and whether God or evolution I really don't care \:D \:D just nice to be here!!

IMHO

also most of the earlier scientists were religious and viewed science as a way to discover more about God's creation -- !!
_________________________
Jay

"If you can't be a good example, then you'll just have to be a horrible warning." -Katharine Hepburn

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#357030 - 01/28/05 06:14 PM Re: Is music proof of God?
markjpcs Offline


Registered: 08/31/04
Posts: 3170
Loc: Wisconsin
Aaron!

BRAVO!
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#357031 - 01/29/05 12:32 AM Re: Is music proof of God?
Ell Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/09/05
Posts: 67
 Quote:
Originally posted by Rockitman:
Well Dammit, if there is a God, why doesn't he/she just show himself to us so we don't have to be in doubt our whole lives?
What is his purpose of hiding/not revealing himself?
I would think this would be one peaceful world if he would just show up once in a while.
I don't know, maybe on Leno or Letterman. You know, once a year or so, just to let us know he's here and watching.
Crime and the evil doings of man would all but disappear I think.
Isn't that what he would want? Does he enjoy watching us kill each other over him?
That is kind of perverted if true.
I don't believe that music is proof of God.
Proof is in the pudding. Seeing is believing.
And don't start on me with the whole Jesus thing.
They didn't have CNN back then, so don't try to tell me everything you read by a bunch of Jews in a book that a Roman Caeser had published is God's word.
ARgggggghhhhh!!!!

That felt good. [/b]
Let me get started...

Ok, the bible says: Hebrews 11:6 "But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him"

FIRST and SECOND question answered.

Peacful? Crime and evil doings would cease??:
Isaiah 14:12 "How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations! 13For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: 14I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High. 15Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit"

Satan was probably the closest angel to God, He saw God, He knkew God, yet there was iniquity found in Him.

THIRD and FOURTH question answered.

Revelation 21:4,5 "And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away. And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new"

FIFTH question answered.

"the whole Jesus thing?"
I have heard others say this, I cannot understand it, read the bible, where did His wisdom, His love come from?

Oh, and the bible, how was the prophecy (and many more) of Daniel 2, 7, 8- correct? Predicting four world empires that were to rise: Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece, and Rome.

The 66 books of the Bible were written:
1. On three continents.
2. In three languages.
3. By about 40 different people (kings, shepherds, scientists, attorneys, an army general, fishermen, priests, and a physician).
4. Over a period of about 1,500 years.
5. On the most controversial subjects.
6. By people who, in most cases, had never met.
7. By authors whose education and background varied greatly.

Then why are they so in harmony with each other??

There is SO MUCH more evidence of biblical wisdom, I could go on and on......

-------------------------------------------------

Oh, and follow the link: http://www.explorationfilms.com/folders.asp?action=display&record=1
Very interesting evidence there.

Interesting Quote from the site: "There are changes going on in the evolutionary community because of the growing evidence for design," Dr. Martin exclaims, "and scientists are beginning to realize there's no way mindless chance processes could create an ordered, artistic, complex universe like we have--explosions don't create order. The problem is, once people start to talk about a designer, are they willing to name him?"


Question: Why is there a distinct battle between love and hate, why in every story, is there good and bad? Why does good always win?-
Because: "God is Love" 1 John 4:8 "I am the Almighty God" Gen 17:1.
Love is the strongest.

Anyway,
THAT felt good!

God bless All.
_________________________
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#357032 - 01/29/05 06:55 AM Re: Is music proof of God?
Miss Mouse Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/29/04
Posts: 276
Loc: Southeastern Pennsylvania
For those interested in the ongoing ID discussion, yesterday's Wall Street Journal (p. W11) had an article on the aftershock at the National Museum of History following the publication in its Proceedings of the Biological Society of Washington of what the author claimed was the "first peer-reviewed article to appear in a technical biology journal laying out the evidential case for Intelligent Design."

Umm - didn't someone else ask whether or not this thread belonged in the Coffee Room? Maybe yes?
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#357033 - 01/29/05 09:21 AM Re: Is music proof of God?
FranklySpeaking Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/22/04
Posts: 273
Loc: Texas
"Umm - didn't someone else ask whether or not this thread belonged in the Coffee Room? Maybe yes?"

yes it does ... but some things just sprout where they will \:D :rolleyes:

must be an early spring \:\)
_________________________
Jay

"If you can't be a good example, then you'll just have to be a horrible warning." -Katharine Hepburn

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#357034 - 01/29/05 09:25 AM Re: Is music proof of God?
signa Offline
8000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/06/04
Posts: 8483
Loc: Ohio, USA
music speaks for itself with or without God. i don't think we need either God/bible here in piano corner.

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#357035 - 01/29/05 09:58 AM Re: Is music proof of God?
AaronSF Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/07/04
Posts: 732
Loc: San Francisco
 Quote:
Originally posted by signa:
music speaks for itself with or without God. i don't think we need either God/bible here in piano corner. [/b]
I agree totally, Signa, going back to the original topic. But this thread has taken on an off-topic, life of its own. If Frank wants to move this thread to the CR, I think that would be great. That's really where it belongs.

 Quote:
Originally posted by FranklySpeaking:
also most of the earlier scientists were religious and viewed science as a way to discover more about God's creation -- !! [/b]
Yes, indeed, which is why I cannot understand how science and religion are incompatible and why historically humans keep coming back to this place of mistrusting science and thinking it somehow attacks religion. It is as though the atavistic, superstitious part of humans keeps rearing its ugly head. Ironic to me because all monotheistic religions claim to be opposed to superstition and open to enlightenment. I guess the superstitious part of humans just lives at a very primal level, and it is sometimes hard to mitigate it with either intelligence or enlightened faith.

And thanks, FS, for your great post above. I agree with you and am aware of those complexities of how it all began, down there on the pre-cellular level, the primordial soup. I don't know that we'll ever get it all figured out (what fun would that be!), but it is surely in our nature to try, our God-given nauture, if you will. Unexplained phenomena should be a spur to investigate, to delve deeper into the mystery and wonder of life. I do not believe it is a signpost from the Almighty to close the door on further inquiry.
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Aaron

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#357036 - 01/29/05 10:21 AM Re: Is music proof of God?
rach3 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/13/04
Posts: 111
there is without a doubt a "god" out there, whether it be what we humans think of as a master creator who thinks similarly to us and possessed infinite knowledge to create the universe or some kind of force far more complex then we can even comprehend. i dont believe that christianity is correct though ,despite going to a christian school and also the fact that my parents are constantly trying to prove me wrong. i think the bible could possibly be the divine word of god, but i also think that a lot of it was altered or misinterpreted due to the large amount of symbolism and what not that occurs throughout it.

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#357037 - 01/29/05 10:36 AM Re: Is music proof of God?
CrashTest Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/23/01
Posts: 4111
This is a question that also affects me. Religion aside, and even with considering evolution, it is still amazing how humans and our world have turned out.

We function perfectly, and our world functions perfectly. If we were created like this already or if we evolved to this step it really does not matter, because we ended up here, regardless.

Now, is this proof of God? Well, look at how creative humans are, with technology, which often imitates the design of nature itself. (Birds, airplanes, etc.)

Perhaps it is not a Christian God, or a Jewish God, but I think that there has to be something there with intelligence. I fail to see how we can live in a world, where everything works so perfectly in its design, and it be made randomly. (even though humans choose to not act perfectly, our bodies function with practicality, and nature itself is amazing i its design). Our technology and art is made with intelligence and order in mind, which to me, reflects our outside world. It would make sense if there is a creative intelligence behind it all, I don't see any other way. If someone can tell me how this comes out of a random process, I'll be happy to listen. Even evolution is not random, but a design.

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#357038 - 01/29/05 10:44 AM Re: Is music proof of God?
BruceD Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 18292
Loc: Victoria, BC
Those who quote the Bible as irrefutable proof of God's existence and who claim it is His "word" seem to me to forget who wrote the Bible, as we know it: fallible, impressionable human beings - albeit some were scholars of their time - whose lack of understanding of the forces of nature attributed everything they couldn't understand to inexplicable - hence, divine - forces.

Yet the same individuals would think it ludicrous to advocate accepting the Ancients' concept of the world as flat with the Mediterranean at its centre, or the Earth as a plate riding on the back of a tortoise or the theory that Earth is the centre of the Universe.

I'm getting thirsty; would anyone care to join me for coffee?

Regards,
_________________________
BruceD
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#357039 - 01/30/05 08:46 AM Re: Is music proof of God?
black_coffee Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/12/05
Posts: 23
Loc: York, England
 Quote:
Originally posted by AaronSF:
 Quote:
Originally posted by TimR:
The rest of your post is simply "argument from incredulity." Basically this boils down to "I personally am not able to understand how something complex could evolve, therefore it must not have." This is just plain silly, it doesn't make a case either for or against. You could be right or wrong, but this is not the argument to use.[/b]
Thanks, Tim. I couldn't agree with you more.

Evolution is a scientific theory, backed by empirical evidence. It is not a belief structure.

I suppose it's no surprise they would think up this patently bogus attack on science. Their "science" is "faith based," so rigorous proof isn't required. If you can't explain a complex system, then it must be proof of I.D. (which is obviously just God in a professor's robes). That anyone can think the presence of unexplained phenomena is proof of the existence of I.D. is, frankly, frightening. It's the worst sort of anti-intellectualism, and in our poor country where "dumbing down" has apparently become a full-time profession of the religious right, this is a new low. Talk about hypocracy. Presenting I.D. as a valid "scientific" alternative to evolution is the height of hyprocracy and cynicism, as it contains not one ounce of science and is obviously religion thinly veiled. It's really sickening.

[/b]
This frustrates me more and more. How you equate not understanding evolution into not believing evolution is ludicrous. And yet you back each other up with the same poor arguments.

One of the fundamental, most basic, most important principles of information theory is that a code requires information. There has never been an example of a code, where this code was not programmed.

Yet, DNA, the helix shaped, compact, microscopic genius that forms the instructions for life is somehow immune to this very logical reasoning. Would you look at Beethoven's Moonlight Sonata and suggest that he'd simply thrown random paint on the canvas?? With all our amazing technology and intelligence, we can't even begin to form this masterpiece of DNA - and yet we are happy to believe that it somehow whipped itself into shape out of some primordial slime???

Yes, and what's even sadder is this is the same nation that spends billions on S.E.T.I. - who when observing a very simple 'pattern' of pulses from outer space, are inclined to believe that such a simple arguably random pattern definitely implies a greater intelligence.

Go figure on the warped logic there.

Intelligent design theory is backed up by the fact that living things show design.

If an unknown vehicle / machine were to turn up outside your door one morning and you had no real way of tracking the maker - would you assume it had just evolved, simply because the fact you couldn't understand how it could have evolved doesn't mean it hadn't. No, of course you don't.

Evolution is therefore every bit as much of a faith system as believing that there is design behind the living world. We can only ever observe microevolution (e.g. dogs to different dogs) so therefore no matter how much evidence we have it remains a faith system because we can never see it.

And the fact is, there is very little evidence for evolution.

Really question yourselves on fossils - you will find there are few and far between missing links - and even these are debatable. There are certainly not the countless amounts Darwin predicted.

Mutations - the mechanism for upwards evolution. Even some of the best professors are struggling with this as there is simply no evidence for a good mutation. There should be at least plenty.

This is just the tip - don't believe me then check it out yourself - find anything specific let me know.

I've spent a long time studying biology at degree level, the same as a car mechanic would study a car. And like the car mechanic I have concluded there is no way such creative and efficient design could have brought itself into existence on its own. Evolution requires so much more faith.
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He got smaller as the world got big, the whiz man never fit him like the whiz kid did...

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#357040 - 01/30/05 09:52 AM Re: Is music proof of God?
Mr. E Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/22/05
Posts: 426
Thank you coffee, you summed up my thoughts and feelings perfectly.

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#357041 - 01/30/05 10:12 AM Re: Is music proof of God?
Miss Mouse Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/29/04
Posts: 276
Loc: Southeastern Pennsylvania
Oops, that should say National Museum of Natural History in the post above.
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#357042 - 01/30/05 10:34 AM Re: Is music proof of God?
AaronSF Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/07/04
Posts: 732
Loc: San Francisco
Even if, black-coffee,for the sake of argument, I grant you most of your argument about the lack of a lot of evidence to support evolution, I don't see how that then points us toward I.D. In fact it begs the question. I understand how it might point to gaps in our knowledge, but it's a giant leap of faith from a theory that is backed by empirical data (however slight you think it is) to a theory supported by nothing other than your wish to believe that complex biological systems "prove" the existence of I.D. That's entirely backward logic and it's not scientific. A scientific theory requires supporting empirical evidence, not the absence of it. Positing an untestable explanation for phenomena you don't understand is unscientific. Calling it science does not make it so.
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#357043 - 01/30/05 11:45 AM Re: Is music proof of God?
Mr. E Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/22/05
Posts: 426
How is a theory that all life originated from a single common ancestor testable?? Have they tested it??

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#357044 - 01/30/05 03:32 PM Re: Is music proof of God?
Piana Justice Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/16/05
Posts: 299
Loc: Greenville, NC
-my sincerest apologies if i haven't been here in a while. for some odd reason i keep getting 'suspended' every now and then for some odd reason.
-to pianojerome, i kinda thought that you Jews spelled God G-d, b/c you don't really worship him technically, but then i found out from a Christian program that culturally, that's how they spell God.
-anyway, to explain you question, the reason i believe that Jews don't really celebrate Xmas is b/c they rejected Christ when he was on the Earth preaching his message, but the Gentiles accepted it with open arms.
-but after God takes the Christians [saints] outta here into Heaven to protect them from the terrible tragedies [judgements] that lie ahead for the sinners and unbelievers, he then turns to the Jews in the Middle East, [not America] who haven't yet been exposed to the truth. the reason for this is that since the time of Jesus, the Gospels started in the Middle East and gradually moved westward until it moved to America, as it is now. then when the Tribulation Period [known as the Apocalypse] finally arrives, then it goes back East again after it leaves the West Coast.
-to Mr. Zac and Rockitman, i'm not trying to get you to believe in God or even prove his existence, but don't you think it's a little harsh to resent God b/c he isn't visible to the naked, human eye? you see God at work as the seasons change, when children are concieved [if you have any], when you hear a beautiful voice sing, when someone [duh!!!] has superb piano abilities, etc. i could go on and on. someone even said that you can't even take you next BREATH w/o God's help [or existance].
-not even in my most infinite imagination can i understand some things [that God are behind], and some things aren't meant to be understood, just accepted.
-scientists often hypothosize that the Earth- you might as well say- formed outta nothing. if there was such thing as 'The Big Bang', then who caused it? it had to have been SOMEONE. who made the Earth we're standing on? who put life in you when you were concieved? who moved the dinosaurs [and other really large, prehistoric species that can't coexist with humans] outta the way so that a way could be made for our existance?
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#357045 - 01/30/05 03:56 PM Re: Is music proof of God?
ivorythumper Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/04/04
Posts: 1730
Loc: The Great American Southwest
 Quote:
Originally posted by Miss Mouse:
Peter Kreeft, Professor of Philosophy at Boston College, has written some thoughtful books exploring a few of these questions. In his "Heaven: The Heart's Deepest Longing" he writes the following about music:
"Perhaps the most mysteriously moving of all earthly hauntings is music - so powerful, the ancients spontaneously ascribed it to gods (the Muses), not to human beings...No one can tell me music is mere aesthetic pleasure, bloom or ornament. It is a lifeline, a prophet, a divine haunting. If there is a Bach, there is a God.
All the hauntings seem to come from the same source and point back to it, however diverse the media through which they come. Not only faces, romantic love, pictures, stories, and music,...,the unforgettable power of certain lines of poetry - all these and thousands more are hauntings that seem to say the same thing: There is something bigger than the world out there hiding behind everything in the world, and our chief joy is with it. The world is its mask; we must unmask it." [pp. 110-111] [/b]
Hey there, Miss Mouse -- I always enjoy reading Peter Kreeft! His "Christianity for Modern Pagans", an annotation of Pascal's Pensees is delightful. He's quite the raconteur, and a true gentleman in person.

Did you study at BC ("Barely Catholic" as Prof. Kreeft calls it)?
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Ivorythumper

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#357046 - 01/30/05 04:19 PM Re: Is music proof of God?
Logos Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/22/04
Posts: 65
Peter Kreeft is a clueless idiot. I recognized his name from this article:

http://www.catholiceducation.org/articles/civilization/cc0011.html

He hasn't even got the slightest understanding of what he's talking about. It's laughable. The fact that this person is a professor of philosophy disturbs and saddens me.

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#357047 - 01/30/05 08:37 PM Re: Is music proof of God?
Opus_Maximus Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/27/04
Posts: 1500
Music puts me in a state of such sublime being that my body and spirit are numbed
with ecstacy.


Heroin does the same.

Is THAT proof of god?

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#357048 - 01/30/05 11:47 PM Re: Is music proof of God?
snap_apple Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/21/03
Posts: 710
Here's a question

How do scientific theories or science in general disprove the existence of a greater power?

I find it odd that so many religious people get so defensive when challenged with scientific data. In reality there is nothing to be frightened about because all it really boils down to is rhetoric.

Take for example the creation of the universe and life on this planet, like is being discussed. Lets say that evolution is the actual process that took place, that through mutations and specie survival nature in a sense created itself. So what? what does that prove or disaprove. So we started out as a few chemicals floating around empty nothing...chemicals that happen to be given scary scientific terms. What are those chemicals really? whats hydrogen really? I know it may sound like just crappy intellectual mumbo jumbo but if you stop and think about it all the science community has really done is taken names to describe what certain things are. Nature...what is nature? when describing evolution you are describing natures process of creating itself. Well.... what is nature? what if you replaced nature with God? What if you replaced everything with God? What if you give no names to anything?

It all boils down to a difference in words. When you scientifically prove something you are merely doing it by organizing all the elements that participate in the process into different names so you can clearly "prove" your theory. But all of these "scientifically" proven theories are merely articulated through man given terms and they really don't disprove or prove anything they just communicate and allow us to understand.

Of course I am also speaking about a greater power in a more broad sense rather then in the strict Christian sense but my point is just because something sounds factually solid backed up by unarguable evidence does not disprove the existence of a greater force. I again refer back to my statement about nature, what if you replaced the broad term "nature" with "God" then what would the evolution theory sound like? What if you replaced all the names of various chemicals with names like spirit, soul, God, creator, what would the difference be between the religious and the scientific?

Is the difference between scientific and spiritual really just a matter of descriptive terms?

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#357049 - 01/31/05 12:13 AM Re: Is music proof of God?
TimR Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/17/04
Posts: 3250
Loc: Virginia, USA
 Quote:
Originally posted by black_coffee:
This frustrates me more and more. How you equate not understanding evolution into not believing evolution is ludicrous. And yet you back each other up with the same poor arguments.

[/b]
I can see why it would be frustrating, coming from your personal viewpoint. And yet, coming from ours, this equation seems blindingly obvious. Let me define "ours" first. I am a Christian who accepts evolution and a 4.55e9 year earth because the evidence is overwhelming.

And our viewpoint is this: We have heard the same song over and over. "I studied evolution and found it scientifically flawed, so I started reading the Bible and became a Christian." It is an apocryphal story. It even has that apocryphal feel to it. We have not been able to find a single case where it is true. Of all the people we've talked to who have "studied" evolution and found it "flawed," we have not found one who understands even the simplest details. Not one.

So when you come here and say, "I studied it." "I understand it." "It doesn't make sense." you have to realize you are not the first, nor the hundredth, nor the thousandth person who's said that to us. You could be telling the truth. You could be a PhD candidate wh's been studying molecular genetics for a decade, and you might really know your stuff. But in our view, the odds are pretty long against you. We think you probably 1) started from the viewpoint that the Bible is inerrant and you would reject anything else no matter how well supported; 2) read a couple of books and websites by Creationists who had little to no understanding of science or evolution; and 3) deluded yourself into thinking you understood.

Now I apologize in advance if you are really that 1 in 10,000 people who've actually taken a single college level biology course and passed it. But I think you can see why my position is really a reasonable one to start from.

You might recall there have been a number of previous cases where science appeared to be at odds with the bible. For example, the Bible says pretty clearly the earth is flat, the firmament (sky) is a solid ceiling, and the sun is fixed in the firmament. That was the church's perspective for a lot of centuries, and anyone who disagreed was a heretic, and many of them were burned for it. Scientists, many who were Christian, eventually accumulated enough evidence to cause some (but not all) to believe the earth was round and actually orbitted the sun. Some people still reject this on the basis of the bible. Others lost all faith in the bible. Others (kind of like me) have a curious way of retaining faith yet accepting the evidence for reality. Evolution is no different. The facts are there, and no amount of wishing makes them go away. There is no scientific dispute, though there are details to be worked out and areas that remain unknown. Most of the mainstream Christian denominations (Roman Catholic, Anglican, some Lutheran, etc.) agree.

The Bible was after all selected quite a few years ago, and if we were allowed to add to it today (and why not?) then some of this might be no problem. You do know why there are 66 books in the Bible, right? A long time ago, somewhere around 379 (I didn't look it up, this is from memory, somewhere around then) a committee got together, took all the suggested books, and separated them into two stacks. Yup, this one is inspired; nope, don't think so. When it ended, there were 66 in the keep stack and about 100 in the discard stack. People being people, about ten minutes later a few started sneaking stuff out of the discard stack they just couldn't bear to let go, and there are a few in the keep pile they were unsure of too, but the vote had been taken.
_________________________
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#357050 - 01/31/05 02:41 AM Re: Is music proof of God?
black_coffee Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/12/05
Posts: 23
Loc: York, England
Hey Tim,

I don't mind that neither of us will convince the other of our respective views, all I have tried to say is that evolution is a process, that if happened - scientists are not sure what mechanism could have caused it (mutations aren't the answer) and have very little empirical evidence to be sure it did. And in a time when we find out more and more of lifes amazing little intracacies, it seems backwards logic to still assume blindly that evolution must have occured. I can just imagine standing in front of God, and saying
"Gees, where was the evidence?" and him pointing right back and saying "What did you need, a signature?"

I agree that just pointing toward complex biological systems and shouting "design" is in itself closed minded and bereft of scientific inquiry. But essentially, until one can find a sensible naturalistic method of origin for a highly complex code, then one must logically infer a code maker.

As for your mud slinging and stereotyping of creationists, then that's just intellectual belittling - I have never tried to do the same regarding any scientists who advocate evolution. Of course there will be the oddball who will be heavy in fundamentalist rhetoric and light on substance, but I'm sure that oddballs are a regular and unfortunate minority of any group.

As for the Earth being flat, I don't believe the writers of the Bible infer this. If it refers to the 'four corners of the earth' then it is doing no worse than the writers of novles nowadays, it could easily be regarded as figurative speech.

I think that your faith rests on uneasy foundations. If you truly believe the Bible rests on as shaky foundations as you imply - that it is factually incorrect (scientifically) and highly fallible in its collation then on what basis do you believe any of it? What thought process do you go through to decide which bit you rest your faith upon and which bits are simply incorrect? In a book that claims to be the inerrant word of God, it has to be all or nothing.
_________________________
He got smaller as the world got big, the whiz man never fit him like the whiz kid did...

Ben Folds (legend)

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#357051 - 01/31/05 04:12 AM Re: Is music proof of God?
TimR Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/17/04
Posts: 3250
Loc: Virginia, USA
 Quote:
Originally posted by black_coffee:
Hey Tim,


I think that your faith rests on uneasy foundations. If you truly believe the Bible rests on as shaky foundations as you imply - that it is factually incorrect (scientifically) and highly fallible in its collation then on what basis do you believe any of it? [/b]
That is an insightful question and one that I think all honest and intelligent believers must grapple with.

On the one hand, I can state the obvious. That's why it's called faith, because there's no evidence and we believe it anyway. A desperate search for evidence, and a blindness to the fact that what you turn up is fatally flawed, implies even less faith. Ultimately this argument fails to satisfy - carried to its logical conclusion it can only argue for both of us to lose faith.

Last week I read two books on the subject that you might find interesting and challenging. Neither contains any science or math, don't worry. They are "The End of Faith," by Sam Harris, and "Why Christianity must Change or Die" by Bishop Spong. Harris is an atheist who suggests that the survival of the world may depend on examining the sacrosanct tenets of religion with the same rigor we do scientific theories. Spong is a devout believer who nevertheless has come to some troubling (and some say heretical) conclusions about the nature of our beliefs and what they must be to survive. Neither has the Ultimate Answer but both have plenty to say.

Some of Spong's comments actually could lead us into the direction of speculating about a connection between music and God - not so much a proof, but an intriguing possibility. However, the musical God support would not extend to a theist God, but only a more generalized God as love, beauty, source of being, etc. It could not reach to the personal, interceding, controlling vision that I think you want to find.
_________________________
gotta go practice

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#357052 - 01/31/05 07:28 AM Re: Is music proof of God?
black_coffee Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/12/05
Posts: 23
Loc: York, England
 Quote:
Originally posted by TimR:
 Quote:
Originally posted by black_coffee:
Hey Tim,


I think that your faith rests on uneasy foundations. If you truly believe the Bible rests on as shaky foundations as you imply - that it is factually incorrect (scientifically) and highly fallible in its collation then on what basis do you believe any of it? [/b]
That is an insightful question and one that I think all honest and intelligent believers must grapple with.

On the one hand, I can state the obvious. That's why it's called faith, because there's no evidence and we believe it anyway.

Harris is an atheist who suggests that the survival of the world may depend on examining the sacrosanct tenets of religion with the same rigor we do scientific theories. Spong is a devout believer who nevertheless has come to some troubling (and some say heretical) conclusions about the nature of our beliefs and what they must be to survive. Neither has the Ultimate Answer but both have plenty to say.

[/b]
I'm glad we've calmed down!!!

I'm really sorry I seem to take offence to what you say so much, but i want to pick a bone about your definition of faith.

Blind faith is when you believe in something even though there is no evidence. Or contrary to the evidence.

Faith, in its true form, is when you have evidence. But you have to have faith to believe in it as it is something that you can never prove. For example, you have faith that your computer will not just blow up in your face. Blind faith would be to believe that it will...

I agree that a lot of people of all religions do not examine their belief system as much as they should do. But let us not heap so much praise on the credibility of all scientifists and their theories. Scientists are just as prone to their own a priori belief systems and hence forth theories that have been widely acclaimed to be universally true, have soon been found to be based on very little evidence.

Take the atom, or the steady state theory, or Hackel's embryonic recapitualation. All widely praised discoveries that have soon been replaced by better theories. Hackel's illustrations of embryonic recapitulation are a particularly noteable example as they stood as fact for many a year, and were found to be a farce, and almost completely contrived.

People of today treat scientists like the priests and rabbis were once treated, with awe and respect. 99% will never challenge anything. Don't get me wrong, I am not saying they are deceitful, that would of course only be a tiny minority, but nonetheless, they are fallible human beings.

I am not a fan of Spong particularly. I would dislike to be named a literiser, but I feel strongly that you take The Bible as a whole or nothing at all.

Take the start of one of Spong's books...

He claims:

"No word is objective; hence no word ever passes from the lips of one person into the hearing of another without being changed in meaning. Words are never the truth. They are only the medium of truth Words become the vehicles by which experiences are shared."

Yet Spong wants us to believe that his words are true and that fundamentalists are most certainly wrong. Such absolute and certain statements sound strange from a bishop who condemns a church for prescribing certainty and absolutes.
_________________________
He got smaller as the world got big, the whiz man never fit him like the whiz kid did...

Ben Folds (legend)

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#357053 - 01/31/05 07:55 AM Re: Is music proof of God?
FranklySpeaking Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/22/04
Posts: 273
Loc: Texas
Agreed, time to adjourn to the coffee room ...

\:D
_________________________
Jay

"If you can't be a good example, then you'll just have to be a horrible warning." -Katharine Hepburn

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#357054 - 01/31/05 08:20 AM Re: Is music proof of God?
black_coffee Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/12/05
Posts: 23
Loc: York, England
Lol! I'm sorry, but sometimes you can't help where a conversation takes you. It was more relevant at the start, but nonetheless, is a worthy discussion.
_________________________
He got smaller as the world got big, the whiz man never fit him like the whiz kid did...

Ben Folds (legend)

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#357055 - 01/31/05 11:00 AM Re: Is music proof of God?
Miss Mouse Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/29/04
Posts: 276
Loc: Southeastern Pennsylvania
Ivorythumper - no BC credentials; just enjoy reading Kreeft. Haven't read the one you note but will enjoy picking up a copy.

This is quite a discussion!
_________________________
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