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#356966 - 01/23/05 11:08 AM Is music proof of God?
black_coffee Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/12/05
Posts: 23
Loc: York, England
I think I'll leave this one open...!!!
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#356967 - 01/23/05 11:11 AM Re: Is music proof of God?
Beaver Offline
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Registered: 02/09/04
Posts: 257
There is no "proof" for God. If you believe in God, you tend to see his design in everything, if you don't, then you don't.

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#356968 - 01/23/05 11:16 AM Re: Is music proof of God?
Googlism Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/08/02
Posts: 1072
Loc: Toronto
How do you see that music is proof of God?
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#356969 - 01/23/05 11:25 AM Re: Is music proof of God?
markjpcs Offline


Registered: 08/31/04
Posts: 3170
Loc: Wisconsin
No.
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#356970 - 01/23/05 11:26 AM Re: Is music proof of God?
justme Offline
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Registered: 06/11/03
Posts: 4418
Loc: Englewood, FL
This almost belongs in the Coffee Room.
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#356971 - 01/23/05 11:27 AM Re: Is music proof of God?
markjpcs Offline


Registered: 08/31/04
Posts: 3170
Loc: Wisconsin
I agree justme.

Take it to the CR.
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#356972 - 01/23/05 11:40 AM Re: Is music proof of God?
jazzyd Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/16/01
Posts: 1861
Loc: United Kingdom
Has anyone read - nay, subjected themselves to - Real Presences by George Steiner? It tackles this question, sort of (in relation to the arts in general, rather than specifically music). There did seem to be the odd interesting idea in it - though I couldn't really summarise anything off the top of my head now - but good grief was it hard work making sense of it!

I don't know if I'd recommend it, per se, but it would probably interest anyone who thinks there's a debate to be had about God and the arts.


David
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"After silence, that which comes nearest to expressing the inexpressible is music." - Aldous Huxley

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#356973 - 01/23/05 11:46 AM Re: Is music proof of God?
Siddhartha Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/08/04
Posts: 1244
Loc: Cleveland, Ohio
 Quote:
Originally posted by justme:
This almost belongs in the Coffee Room. [/b]
Oh god, justme, dont send it there! Oh god no, please no! *sob*
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#356974 - 01/23/05 12:00 PM Re: Is music proof of God?
concertpianist12988 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/24/04
Posts: 343
Loc: NY
you guys analyze things too deeply. he is trying to say that music is so good that only God can come up with such a thing.....i guess
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#356975 - 01/23/05 12:04 PM Re: Is music proof of God?
justme Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/11/03
Posts: 4418
Loc: Englewood, FL
 Quote:
Originally posted by Siddhartha:
Oh god, justme, dont send it there! Oh god no, please no! *sob* [/b]
What's wrong, Sid? You scared or somethin'?

\:D \:D \:D
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#356976 - 01/23/05 12:10 PM Re: Is music proof of God?
Siddhartha Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/08/04
Posts: 1244
Loc: Cleveland, Ohio
 Quote:
Originally posted by justme:
 Quote:
Originally posted by Siddhartha:
Oh god, justme, dont send it there! Oh god no, please no! *sob* [/b]
What's wrong, Sid? You scared or somethin'?

\:D \:D \:D [/b]
LOL!!!! From the mouths of babes....
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#356977 - 01/23/05 12:19 PM Re: Is music proof of God?
justme Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/11/03
Posts: 4418
Loc: Englewood, FL
 Quote:
Originally posted by Siddhartha:
LOL!!!! From the mouths of babes.... [/b]
:D There IS a GOD!!!!
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http://toosad4words.blogspot.com/

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#356978 - 01/23/05 02:31 PM Re: Is music proof of God?
Googlism Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/08/02
Posts: 1072
Loc: Toronto
 Quote:
Originally posted by concertpianist12988:
you guys analyze things too deeply. he is trying to say that music is so good that only God can come up with such a thing.....i guess [/b]
Can you say the same thing with Prokofievs stuff? \:D
_________________________
Old videos from prior piano competitions:
http://www.youtube.com/user/kilace

____________________

"... It is a skill you go on learning all your life: the more you write, the more you learn."

Harry Freedman on the craft of composing

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#356979 - 01/23/05 02:42 PM Re: Is music proof of God?
Piana Justice Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/16/05
Posts: 299
Loc: Greenville, NC
if you appreciated music, then yes. when i see professional musicians perform, they tend to astound me beyond words. it's like they have superhuman abilities to not only compose, but to play it like there's not tomorrow. they seem to put all of their heart and soul in it. but then i remind myself that God gave them the ability [or gift] to be able to be that talented, b/c they didn't aquire it by themselves. i get envious, but then i remind myself that i can be that good.
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#356980 - 01/23/05 03:56 PM Re: Is music proof of God?
Sketchee Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/23/03
Posts: 198
Loc: Beltsville, MD
Short answer yes with an if, long answer no with a but.

 Quote:
if you appreciated music, then yes.
Maybe if you appreciate music but that isn't "proof" enough for many people.

Does "music" include music worshiping satan, 'pagan' gods, and promoting 'sin'? If so, then the answer to the question is a definite yes.
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#356981 - 01/23/05 08:34 PM Re: Is music proof of God?
Piana Justice Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/16/05
Posts: 299
Loc: Greenville, NC
as much as i love music, and i'll listen to pretty much anything, but not EVERYTHING. i have my limits to the kinds of music i'll listen to. there's a lot of things out there i don't consider music. and there's a lot of people out there who pervert the gifts that God gave them by using them to glorify and exault themselves instead of God, who gave them the talent to start with. with that said, i think there's a lot of crap out there that isn't music. a lot of those people don't even play an instrument.
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#356982 - 01/23/05 09:15 PM Re: Is music proof of God?
pianojerome Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 9868
Phew, that's a tough question. Why don't we ask G-d??? \:D

Music isn't the proof. G-d is. (But I couldn't use that argument with any atheists... \:D )

I just can't believe that music is the product of chance and probability. It is too great for that. It has to come from some greater being, but I guess you can't "prove" that in the scientific sense. You can't prove a lot in the scientific sense, but that doesn't mean that those things don't exist.
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#356983 - 01/23/05 09:20 PM Re: Is music proof of God?
valarking Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/17/02
Posts: 2331
Loc: Dallas
pianojerome, you Jewish or something? I know a Jewish girl who would write G-d in her school papers. Hehe...


I was looking at an in depth analysis of Bach's fugues, and I have come to conclusion that God is the only being that can come up with such music.

However, I am Christian, so of course that's what I think.

This is a ridiculous question, most Christians will see it and most Atheists/other religions will view it a different way.

Sometimes I think that God is the one who turns music from signals of vibrations passing from our ear to our brain into what we think of as music. I tend to think like a Materialist on many matters, but this phenomena amazes me.

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#356984 - 01/23/05 09:27 PM Re: Is music proof of God?
pianojerome Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 9868
 Quote:
Originally posted by valarking:
pianojerome, you Jewish or something? I know a Jewish girl who would write G-d in her school papers. Hehe...
[/b]
Valarking, I am Jewish and I am something. You are correct on both accounts. \:D

The hyphen is sort of a tradition. Take an example. Suppose I were to write G-d's name on a piece of paper, in full, and then the paper were to get torn, or lost, or the name were to be erased. It would be like destroying G-d's name, which is too holy to undergo such rude disgrace. So, we put a hyphen in place of the 'o' so that if something does happen, it's not so bad.

Now, I don't think I would be smitten by a thunderbolt (G-d forbid) if I didn't hyphenate - it's not a law, or anything - but it's a tradition, and, as Tevye the Dairyman puts it, "Without our traditions, our lives would be as shaky... as a fiddler on the roof!"
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#356985 - 01/23/05 10:35 PM Re: Is music proof of God?
NAK Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/20/04
Posts: 2561
Loc: Canada
You want to know something interesting? The writers of the Bible considered the name of God to be so sacred that they would have to bathe themselves and clean all their writing equipment before they would write it. This doesn't mean every occurence of the word "God", but rather his personal name: YHWH, with any vowels in between (this was printed "LORD" in most Bible versions). So every time you read the word "LORD" in your Bible, the writer had to clean up before he could write it.

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#356986 - 01/23/05 10:38 PM Re: Is music proof of God?
NAK Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/20/04
Posts: 2561
Loc: Canada
Oh, and for the record, I do believe music to be proof of God's existence. Don't believe me? Listen to Bach's 3rd Brandenburg Concerto.

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#356987 - 01/23/05 11:34 PM Re: Is music proof of God?
AaronSF Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/07/04
Posts: 732
Loc: San Francisco
If this is just a personal gut feeling inquiry (i.e., do you feel music for you is connected to something greater than yourself which you may call God or the great soul or higher power or whatever), then...well...yes.

It is an expression of that which is inexplicable, universal, and instinctually true. It is at once primitive and exhalted, tapping into the collective unconscious, expressing our entire human grappling with how we relate to the bigger picture, the universe, the holy (in the broadest sense of the word).

Music, at its best (Bach, Beethoven, etc.), is when we humans get out of the way and become a conduit for a truth that transcends our human idioms and we say "Ah! Yes! That is it. That is what lives both inside and above us all."
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#356988 - 01/24/05 09:11 AM Re: Is music proof of God?
black_coffee Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/12/05
Posts: 23
Loc: York, England
Wow, what a 24 hours... 21 posts...

Sorry guys, I should have taken this to the coffee room, in fact I thought I had and it took me ages to find it...

However, I was just interested in what people had to say, here's my two pence...

Music is uniquely wonderful. It is incapable of being touched, yet it touches everyone who is capable of hearing sounds. It can seemingly evoke any emotion: we instinctively respond to happy tunes, mournful songs, beautiful melodies, inspiring anthems, stirring hymns, majestic orchestrations.

The attempts of evolutionist musicians to explain the origin of music have been somewhat creative even though lacking in detail. Cecil Forsyth’s monumental book on Orchestration is a classic in its field. In this work he describes in detail the workings of practically every musical instrument known. He traces the intricate development, design, and make-up of instruments that leaves the reader marvelling at the creative prowess people have used to produce such amazingly effective instruments.

Yet of the origin of the first instruments, Forsyth speculates:

‘Earlier still than this we may imagine man as just emerging from his state of savagery. . with a new and wonderful craving for something more than mere rhythm, a craving which may have been first satisfied by means of a hard blade of grass held between his two thumbs.’

So, according to Forsyth the instruments which have been artistically designed, expertly manufactured, and scientifically classified play musical sounds which ‘evolved’ from a few thumps on the black earth by a naked savage. Forsyth admits he is only guessing.

So... my own conclusion, is that no matter how much one can attribute music to repetition and rhythm, there us something far more wonderful than that going on when some simple vibrations raise the hairs on your neck. I believe it is as close to clear evidence of God as we have.
_________________________
He got smaller as the world got big, the whiz man never fit him like the whiz kid did...

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#356989 - 01/24/05 08:41 PM Re: Is music proof of God?
kcoul058 Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/27/04
Posts: 972
Loc: UBC, Vancouver, Canada
I agree.

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#356990 - 01/24/05 08:46 PM Re: Is music proof of God?
Beaver Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/09/04
Posts: 257
 Quote:
Originally posted by black_coffee:
I believe it is as close to clear evidence of God as we have.[/b]
Ah but you only experience music as something like evidence for God if you are already of the mindset to believe in God; plently of scientists would not hear music in the same way you do.

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#356991 - 01/24/05 08:52 PM Re: Is music proof of God?
pianojerome Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 9868
Yes, but... G-d exists. Even if "plenty of scientists" don't think so, he still exists.

The problem with proving his existance, is that you can't prove it scientifically. Just like you can't prove thought process scientifically. Obviously, thought process exists, but you can't prove it scientifically. The proof is in the results of thought process - the proof is in what someone does as a result of thinking, e.g. reading a Bach Fugue and playing it on the piano. Similarly, the proof of G-d's existance lies in his creations - music, the world, living creatures, etc. You can't actually prove the processes by which G-d created these things, but you know that he created them because they exist.
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#356992 - 01/24/05 08:58 PM Re: Is music proof of God?
Beaver Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/09/04
Posts: 257
I do believe in God, but what I meant is that the "argument from music" only works if you experience the kind of meaning from music that is required. For some people, music is just pretty sound.

Hence it is a subjective argument, and hence not a "proof" for God.

It's just not important to look for proofs anyway.

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#356993 - 01/24/05 09:00 PM Re: Is music proof of God?
Plwatcher Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/10/04
Posts: 171
Loc: Atlanta, GA
There is no other possible explanation for the beautiful melodies that we hear from Bach to Liszt. No mortal man is capable of that, on his own accord, unguided. God has given man that ability. To move us all with sweet lyrical melodies. Music has served as an outer extension to man's human experience. However wonderful or horrible? So to answer your question... Music is more than enough proof to validate the FACT that there is a God.

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#356994 - 01/24/05 09:02 PM Re: Is music proof of God?
pianojerome Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 9868
I agree with you Beaver, that "For some people, music is just pretty sound". I misinterpreted, sorry!

(I just don't like the argument that G-d exists sort of part-time... that he exists for me but not for someone else. That's like saying President Bush exists because I believe in some of the things that he does, but that he doesn't exist because somebody else hates him. Sorry, I'm just ranting now... I'll stop. \:D )
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#356995 - 01/25/05 04:40 AM Re: Is music proof of God?
BruceD Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 17917
Loc: Victoria, BC
 Quote:
Originally posted by pianojerome:
That's like saying President Bush exists because I believe in some of the things that he does, but that he doesn't exist because somebody else hates him. Sorry, I'm just ranting now... I'll stop. \:D ) [/b]
This analogy is seriously flawed!
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