Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums
Over 2 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers (it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!

Gifts and supplies for the musician
SEARCH
the Forums & Piano World

This custom search works much better than the built in one and allows searching older posts.
Ad (Piano Sing)
How to Make Your Piano Sing
(ad) Pearl River
Pearl River Pianos
(ad 125) Sweetwater - Digital Keyboards & Other Gear
Digital Pianos at Sweetwater
(ad) Pianoteq
(ad) P B Guide
Acoustic & Digital Piano Guide
Who's Online
137 registered (Anne H, anamnesis, accordeur, Alan Cyr, 36251, acollins, 29 invisible), 1752 Guests and 27 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Quick Links to Useful Piano & Music Resources
Our Classified Ads
Find Piano Professionals-

*Piano Dealers - Piano Stores
*Piano Tuners
*Piano Teachers
*Piano Movers
*Piano Restorations
*Piano Manufacturers
*Organs

Quick Links:
*Advertise On Piano World
*Free Piano Newsletter
*Online Piano Recitals
*Piano Recitals Index
*Piano & Music Accessories
*Music School Listings
* Buying a Piano
*Buying A Acoustic Piano
*Buying a Digital Piano
*Pianos for Sale
*Sell Your Piano
*How Old is My Piano?
*Piano Books
*Piano Art, Pictures, & Posters
*Directory/Site Map
*Contest
*Links
*Virtual Piano
*Music Word Search
*Piano Screen Saver
*Piano Videos
*Virtual Piano Chords
(ad) Estonia Piano
Estonia Pianos
Page 1 of 4 1 2 3 4 >
Topic Options
#356966 - 01/23/05 11:08 AM Is music proof of God?
black_coffee Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/12/05
Posts: 23
Loc: York, England
I think I'll leave this one open...!!!
_________________________
He got smaller as the world got big, the whiz man never fit him like the whiz kid did...

Ben Folds (legend)

Top
Ad 800 (Pearl River)
Pearl River World's Best Selling Piano
#356967 - 01/23/05 11:11 AM Re: Is music proof of God?
Beaver Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/09/04
Posts: 257
There is no "proof" for God. If you believe in God, you tend to see his design in everything, if you don't, then you don't.

Top
#356968 - 01/23/05 11:16 AM Re: Is music proof of God?
Googlism Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/08/02
Posts: 1072
Loc: Toronto
How do you see that music is proof of God?
_________________________
Old videos from prior piano competitions:
http://www.youtube.com/user/kilace

____________________

"... It is a skill you go on learning all your life: the more you write, the more you learn."

Harry Freedman on the craft of composing

Top
#356969 - 01/23/05 11:25 AM Re: Is music proof of God?
markjpcs Offline


Registered: 08/31/04
Posts: 3170
Loc: Wisconsin
No.
_________________________
Visit us at:
The Piano World Practice Club

Top
#356970 - 01/23/05 11:26 AM Re: Is music proof of God?
justme Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/11/03
Posts: 4418
Loc: Englewood, FL
This almost belongs in the Coffee Room.
_________________________
justme

http://toosad4words.blogspot.com/

Top
#356971 - 01/23/05 11:27 AM Re: Is music proof of God?
markjpcs Offline


Registered: 08/31/04
Posts: 3170
Loc: Wisconsin
I agree justme.

Take it to the CR.
_________________________
Visit us at:
The Piano World Practice Club

Top
#356972 - 01/23/05 11:40 AM Re: Is music proof of God?
jazzyd Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/16/01
Posts: 1861
Loc: United Kingdom
Has anyone read - nay, subjected themselves to - Real Presences by George Steiner? It tackles this question, sort of (in relation to the arts in general, rather than specifically music). There did seem to be the odd interesting idea in it - though I couldn't really summarise anything off the top of my head now - but good grief was it hard work making sense of it!

I don't know if I'd recommend it, per se, but it would probably interest anyone who thinks there's a debate to be had about God and the arts.


David
_________________________
"After silence, that which comes nearest to expressing the inexpressible is music." - Aldous Huxley

Top
#356973 - 01/23/05 11:46 AM Re: Is music proof of God?
Siddhartha Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/08/04
Posts: 1244
Loc: Cleveland, Ohio
 Quote:
Originally posted by justme:
This almost belongs in the Coffee Room. [/b]
Oh god, justme, dont send it there! Oh god no, please no! *sob*
_________________________
I was born the year Glenn Gould stop playing concerts. Coincidence?

Top
#356974 - 01/23/05 12:00 PM Re: Is music proof of God?
concertpianist12988 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/24/04
Posts: 343
Loc: NY
you guys analyze things too deeply. he is trying to say that music is so good that only God can come up with such a thing.....i guess
_________________________
Yundi Li (http://www.deutschegrammophon.com/play.htms?LINK=rtsp://ra.universal-music-group.com/dgg/yundiLi-liszt-W-COVER.rm)

Top
#356975 - 01/23/05 12:04 PM Re: Is music proof of God?
justme Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/11/03
Posts: 4418
Loc: Englewood, FL
 Quote:
Originally posted by Siddhartha:
Oh god, justme, dont send it there! Oh god no, please no! *sob* [/b]
What's wrong, Sid? You scared or somethin'?

\:D \:D \:D
_________________________
justme

http://toosad4words.blogspot.com/

Top
#356976 - 01/23/05 12:10 PM Re: Is music proof of God?
Siddhartha Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/08/04
Posts: 1244
Loc: Cleveland, Ohio
 Quote:
Originally posted by justme:
 Quote:
Originally posted by Siddhartha:
Oh god, justme, dont send it there! Oh god no, please no! *sob* [/b]
What's wrong, Sid? You scared or somethin'?

\:D \:D \:D [/b]
LOL!!!! From the mouths of babes....
_________________________
I was born the year Glenn Gould stop playing concerts. Coincidence?

Top
#356977 - 01/23/05 12:19 PM Re: Is music proof of God?
justme Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/11/03
Posts: 4418
Loc: Englewood, FL
 Quote:
Originally posted by Siddhartha:
LOL!!!! From the mouths of babes.... [/b]
:D There IS a GOD!!!!
_________________________
justme

http://toosad4words.blogspot.com/

Top
#356978 - 01/23/05 02:31 PM Re: Is music proof of God?
Googlism Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/08/02
Posts: 1072
Loc: Toronto
 Quote:
Originally posted by concertpianist12988:
you guys analyze things too deeply. he is trying to say that music is so good that only God can come up with such a thing.....i guess [/b]
Can you say the same thing with Prokofievs stuff? \:D
_________________________
Old videos from prior piano competitions:
http://www.youtube.com/user/kilace

____________________

"... It is a skill you go on learning all your life: the more you write, the more you learn."

Harry Freedman on the craft of composing

Top
#356979 - 01/23/05 02:42 PM Re: Is music proof of God?
Piana Justice Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/16/05
Posts: 299
Loc: Greenville, NC
if you appreciated music, then yes. when i see professional musicians perform, they tend to astound me beyond words. it's like they have superhuman abilities to not only compose, but to play it like there's not tomorrow. they seem to put all of their heart and soul in it. but then i remind myself that God gave them the ability [or gift] to be able to be that talented, b/c they didn't aquire it by themselves. i get envious, but then i remind myself that i can be that good.
_________________________

Top
#356980 - 01/23/05 03:56 PM Re: Is music proof of God?
Sketchee Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/23/03
Posts: 198
Loc: Beltsville, MD
Short answer yes with an if, long answer no with a but.

 Quote:
if you appreciated music, then yes.
Maybe if you appreciate music but that isn't "proof" enough for many people.

Does "music" include music worshiping satan, 'pagan' gods, and promoting 'sin'? If so, then the answer to the question is a definite yes.
_________________________
[ Sketchee.com | Art & Sheet Music ]
\ eBay Art / [/b]

Top
#356981 - 01/23/05 08:34 PM Re: Is music proof of God?
Piana Justice Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/16/05
Posts: 299
Loc: Greenville, NC
as much as i love music, and i'll listen to pretty much anything, but not EVERYTHING. i have my limits to the kinds of music i'll listen to. there's a lot of things out there i don't consider music. and there's a lot of people out there who pervert the gifts that God gave them by using them to glorify and exault themselves instead of God, who gave them the talent to start with. with that said, i think there's a lot of crap out there that isn't music. a lot of those people don't even play an instrument.
_________________________

Top
#356982 - 01/23/05 09:15 PM Re: Is music proof of God?
pianojerome Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 9868
Phew, that's a tough question. Why don't we ask G-d??? \:D

Music isn't the proof. G-d is. (But I couldn't use that argument with any atheists... \:D )

I just can't believe that music is the product of chance and probability. It is too great for that. It has to come from some greater being, but I guess you can't "prove" that in the scientific sense. You can't prove a lot in the scientific sense, but that doesn't mean that those things don't exist.
_________________________
Sam

Top
#356983 - 01/23/05 09:20 PM Re: Is music proof of God?
valarking Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/17/02
Posts: 2331
Loc: Dallas
pianojerome, you Jewish or something? I know a Jewish girl who would write G-d in her school papers. Hehe...


I was looking at an in depth analysis of Bach's fugues, and I have come to conclusion that God is the only being that can come up with such music.

However, I am Christian, so of course that's what I think.

This is a ridiculous question, most Christians will see it and most Atheists/other religions will view it a different way.

Sometimes I think that God is the one who turns music from signals of vibrations passing from our ear to our brain into what we think of as music. I tend to think like a Materialist on many matters, but this phenomena amazes me.

Top
#356984 - 01/23/05 09:27 PM Re: Is music proof of God?
pianojerome Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 9868
 Quote:
Originally posted by valarking:
pianojerome, you Jewish or something? I know a Jewish girl who would write G-d in her school papers. Hehe...
[/b]
Valarking, I am Jewish and I am something. You are correct on both accounts. \:D

The hyphen is sort of a tradition. Take an example. Suppose I were to write G-d's name on a piece of paper, in full, and then the paper were to get torn, or lost, or the name were to be erased. It would be like destroying G-d's name, which is too holy to undergo such rude disgrace. So, we put a hyphen in place of the 'o' so that if something does happen, it's not so bad.

Now, I don't think I would be smitten by a thunderbolt (G-d forbid) if I didn't hyphenate - it's not a law, or anything - but it's a tradition, and, as Tevye the Dairyman puts it, "Without our traditions, our lives would be as shaky... as a fiddler on the roof!"
_________________________
Sam

Top
#356985 - 01/23/05 10:35 PM Re: Is music proof of God?
NAK Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/20/04
Posts: 2561
Loc: Canada
You want to know something interesting? The writers of the Bible considered the name of God to be so sacred that they would have to bathe themselves and clean all their writing equipment before they would write it. This doesn't mean every occurence of the word "God", but rather his personal name: YHWH, with any vowels in between (this was printed "LORD" in most Bible versions). So every time you read the word "LORD" in your Bible, the writer had to clean up before he could write it.

Top
#356986 - 01/23/05 10:38 PM Re: Is music proof of God?
NAK Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/20/04
Posts: 2561
Loc: Canada
Oh, and for the record, I do believe music to be proof of God's existence. Don't believe me? Listen to Bach's 3rd Brandenburg Concerto.

Top
#356987 - 01/23/05 11:34 PM Re: Is music proof of God?
AaronSF Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/07/04
Posts: 732
Loc: San Francisco
If this is just a personal gut feeling inquiry (i.e., do you feel music for you is connected to something greater than yourself which you may call God or the great soul or higher power or whatever), then...well...yes.

It is an expression of that which is inexplicable, universal, and instinctually true. It is at once primitive and exhalted, tapping into the collective unconscious, expressing our entire human grappling with how we relate to the bigger picture, the universe, the holy (in the broadest sense of the word).

Music, at its best (Bach, Beethoven, etc.), is when we humans get out of the way and become a conduit for a truth that transcends our human idioms and we say "Ah! Yes! That is it. That is what lives both inside and above us all."
_________________________
Aaron

Top
#356988 - 01/24/05 09:11 AM Re: Is music proof of God?
black_coffee Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/12/05
Posts: 23
Loc: York, England
Wow, what a 24 hours... 21 posts...

Sorry guys, I should have taken this to the coffee room, in fact I thought I had and it took me ages to find it...

However, I was just interested in what people had to say, here's my two pence...

Music is uniquely wonderful. It is incapable of being touched, yet it touches everyone who is capable of hearing sounds. It can seemingly evoke any emotion: we instinctively respond to happy tunes, mournful songs, beautiful melodies, inspiring anthems, stirring hymns, majestic orchestrations.

The attempts of evolutionist musicians to explain the origin of music have been somewhat creative even though lacking in detail. Cecil Forsyth’s monumental book on Orchestration is a classic in its field. In this work he describes in detail the workings of practically every musical instrument known. He traces the intricate development, design, and make-up of instruments that leaves the reader marvelling at the creative prowess people have used to produce such amazingly effective instruments.

Yet of the origin of the first instruments, Forsyth speculates:

‘Earlier still than this we may imagine man as just emerging from his state of savagery. . with a new and wonderful craving for something more than mere rhythm, a craving which may have been first satisfied by means of a hard blade of grass held between his two thumbs.’

So, according to Forsyth the instruments which have been artistically designed, expertly manufactured, and scientifically classified play musical sounds which ‘evolved’ from a few thumps on the black earth by a naked savage. Forsyth admits he is only guessing.

So... my own conclusion, is that no matter how much one can attribute music to repetition and rhythm, there us something far more wonderful than that going on when some simple vibrations raise the hairs on your neck. I believe it is as close to clear evidence of God as we have.
_________________________
He got smaller as the world got big, the whiz man never fit him like the whiz kid did...

Ben Folds (legend)

Top
#356989 - 01/24/05 08:41 PM Re: Is music proof of God?
kcoul058 Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/27/04
Posts: 972
Loc: UBC, Vancouver, Canada
I agree.

Top
#356990 - 01/24/05 08:46 PM Re: Is music proof of God?
Beaver Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/09/04
Posts: 257
 Quote:
Originally posted by black_coffee:
I believe it is as close to clear evidence of God as we have.[/b]
Ah but you only experience music as something like evidence for God if you are already of the mindset to believe in God; plently of scientists would not hear music in the same way you do.

Top
#356991 - 01/24/05 08:52 PM Re: Is music proof of God?
pianojerome Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 9868
Yes, but... G-d exists. Even if "plenty of scientists" don't think so, he still exists.

The problem with proving his existance, is that you can't prove it scientifically. Just like you can't prove thought process scientifically. Obviously, thought process exists, but you can't prove it scientifically. The proof is in the results of thought process - the proof is in what someone does as a result of thinking, e.g. reading a Bach Fugue and playing it on the piano. Similarly, the proof of G-d's existance lies in his creations - music, the world, living creatures, etc. You can't actually prove the processes by which G-d created these things, but you know that he created them because they exist.
_________________________
Sam

Top
#356992 - 01/24/05 08:58 PM Re: Is music proof of God?
Beaver Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/09/04
Posts: 257
I do believe in God, but what I meant is that the "argument from music" only works if you experience the kind of meaning from music that is required. For some people, music is just pretty sound.

Hence it is a subjective argument, and hence not a "proof" for God.

It's just not important to look for proofs anyway.

Top
#356993 - 01/24/05 09:00 PM Re: Is music proof of God?
Plwatcher Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/10/04
Posts: 171
Loc: Atlanta, GA
There is no other possible explanation for the beautiful melodies that we hear from Bach to Liszt. No mortal man is capable of that, on his own accord, unguided. God has given man that ability. To move us all with sweet lyrical melodies. Music has served as an outer extension to man's human experience. However wonderful or horrible? So to answer your question... Music is more than enough proof to validate the FACT that there is a God.

Top
#356994 - 01/24/05 09:02 PM Re: Is music proof of God?
pianojerome Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 9868
I agree with you Beaver, that "For some people, music is just pretty sound". I misinterpreted, sorry!

(I just don't like the argument that G-d exists sort of part-time... that he exists for me but not for someone else. That's like saying President Bush exists because I believe in some of the things that he does, but that he doesn't exist because somebody else hates him. Sorry, I'm just ranting now... I'll stop. \:D )
_________________________
Sam

Top
#356995 - 01/25/05 04:40 AM Re: Is music proof of God?
BruceD Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 18223
Loc: Victoria, BC
 Quote:
Originally posted by pianojerome:
That's like saying President Bush exists because I believe in some of the things that he does, but that he doesn't exist because somebody else hates him. Sorry, I'm just ranting now... I'll stop. \:D ) [/b]
This analogy is seriously flawed!
_________________________
BruceD
- - - - -
Estonia 190

Top
#356996 - 01/25/05 05:18 AM Re: Is music proof of God?
twitchy Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/18/04
Posts: 60
Loc: London
I think the suffering in South-East Asia over the last month (amongst countless other tragedies of innocent people) pretty much proves the non-existance of God.
Enjoyment of music, as stated earlier, is subjective. How else could Rachmaninov and Morrissey be my favourite musicians?

Top
#356997 - 01/25/05 06:20 AM Re: Is music proof of God?
mound Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/10/04
Posts: 782
Loc: Rochester, NY
it all depends on how you define "God" - if you are speaking in the Christian sense of an all knowing all powerful, intelligent being, the type of "God" sense in which I absolutely do not believe, then no, I think saying that music is proof of his existance is just as rediculous as saying my morning cereal is proof of his existance.

If you mean it in the spirtual (read: not religious) sense that we are our own source of great power and creative energy, and that we are all connected in the "vibration energy" sense, then yes, naturally music is proof, as music is vibration.

What the hell am I talking about? Good question, check out this book, it could rock your world:

The Mysticism of Sound and Music
by HAZRAT INAYAT KHAN

(no, it's not religious \:\)


-Paul
_________________________
"You look hopefully for an idea and then you're humble when you find it and you wish your skills were better. To have even a half-baked touch of creativity is an honor."
-- Ernie Stires, composer

Top
#356998 - 01/25/05 06:53 AM Re: Is music proof of God?
BruceD Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 18223
Loc: Victoria, BC
Voltaire : "Si Dieu n'existait pas, il faudrait l'inventer."

("If God didn't exist, he would have to be invented.")
_________________________
BruceD
- - - - -
Estonia 190

Top
#356999 - 01/25/05 11:36 AM Re: Is music proof of God?
Auntie Lynn Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/07/04
Posts: 1122
Loc: San Francisco, CA
The Real Proof of God is that: when She gets teed off, the Dow drops below 10,000...

Top
#357000 - 01/25/05 12:46 PM Re: Is music proof of God?
PianoBeast10489 Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/17/04
Posts: 830
Loc: Virginia Beach,VA
Is music the proof of God. Well, you have to remember, they are now saying that rap is music too.

Top
#357001 - 01/25/05 02:53 PM Re: Is music proof of God?
Piana Justice Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/16/05
Posts: 299
Loc: Greenville, NC
i hope i don't sound Anti-Semetist, but i don't understand why a lot of Jewish people don't believe in God. the last time i checked, all of the prophets in the Bible were Jewish [or Hebrew] men. the Jewish [Hebrew] people in the Bible worshiped the living God.
what happened over time to the Jewish race believeing in God? but then again, i know why, but i won't discuss it as of now. i can understand why they don't worship Christmas, b/c to tell you the truth, the Christmas holiday is a pagan holiday, and more and more it's becoming a commercialized, materialistic, ATHIESTIC holiday. as of Xmas of '04, it was a good thing that i didn't have a Christmas tree until the last minute [extactly the week b/f Christmas] the very day i had a realzation that there was more to Christmas than material things and how much money businesses or how many material things i could accumulate. but i was a season of giving and celebrating the birth of Christ. and lo, and behold, when i got home, i saw a giant fir tree [the first live tree we ever had from a friend] standing in the corner of my living room, just when i thought it was gonna be my first Christmas w/o a tree, b/c my mother threw the on we already had out the year before.
but the Catholics [German] really started the holiday. but as of right now, i don't have the time to give you the history of it's orgin.
_________________________

Top
#357002 - 01/25/05 05:18 PM Re: Is music proof of God?
AaronSF Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/07/04
Posts: 732
Loc: San Francisco
 Quote:
Originally posted by Piana Justice:
i hope i don't sound Anti-Semetist, but i don't understand why a lot of Jewish people don't believe in God. the last time i checked, all of the prophets in the Bible were Jewish [or Hebrew] men. the Jewish [Hebrew] people in the Bible worshiped the living God.
what happened over time to the Jewish race believeing in God? but then again, i know why, but i won't discuss it as of now. i can understand why they don't worship Christmas, b/c to tell you the truth, the Christmas holiday is a pagan holiday, and more and more it's becoming a commercialized, materialistic, ATHIESTIC holiday. as of Xmas of '04, it was a good thing that i didn't have a Christmas tree until the last minute [extactly the week b/f Christmas] the very day i had a realzation that there was more to Christmas than material things and how much money businesses or how many material things i could accumulate. but i was a season of giving and celebrating the birth of Christ. and lo, and behold, when i got home, i saw a giant fir tree [the first live tree we ever had from a friend] standing in the corner of my living room, just when i thought it was gonna be my first Christmas w/o a tree, b/c my mother threw the on we already had out the year before.
but the Catholics [German] really started the holiday. but as of right now, i don't have the time to give you the history of it's orgin. [/b]
_________________________
Aaron

Top
#357003 - 01/25/05 06:16 PM Re: Is music proof of God?
pianojerome Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 9868
I don't find your statement anti-semetic, Piana Justice.

There are Jews called "Humanistic Jews" who, it is my understanding, don't believe in G-d. Kind of like Unitarian Christians?

Jews don't celebrate Christmas, because Jews don't accept Jesus as the son of G-d. We Jews believe in G-d, not Jesus.[/b] To us, it is a pagan holiday, not because of the commercialization, but because of the idea behind the holiday. There is a difference between believeing in G-d, and believeing that Jesus was the son of G-d, or the messiah, or a prophet, etc.

You wrote: "What happened over time to the Jewish race believeing in G-d? but then again, i know why, but i won't discuss it as of now." Please discuss! Do you mean "believeing in Jesus"? Jews never believed in Jesus, if that's what you mean. I am very interested to know why you think that the Jewish race doesn't believe in G-d, especially because most of the Jewish race does believe in G-d!
_________________________
Sam

Top
#357004 - 01/25/05 06:35 PM Re: Is music proof of God?
CrashTest Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/23/01
Posts: 4111
Who is G-d?

Man, I thought it was only Christmas that the Jews missed, it seems as though they are missing some letters of the alphabet too!

;\)

Top
#357005 - 01/25/05 06:42 PM Re: Is music proof of God?
pianojerome Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 9868
 Quote:
Originally posted by CrashTest:
Who is G-d?

Man, I thought it was only Chrismas that the Jews missed, it seems as though they are missing some letters of the alphabet too!

;\) [/b]
Exactly! \:D Actually, there really is some truth to your statement, believe it or not. The most common spelling of G-d's name in Hebrew is (using English letters) is "YHVH". Notice, there are no vowels. The Greeks came along and inserted the vowels, making into "YAHVEH" or "YEHOVAH" and then "Jehovah." Of course, the Hebrew is pronounced "Adonai" which is not at all how it is spelled... Point being that G-d's name is so holy and mysterious that it is impossible to pronounce, so we just say "Adonai" instead. (Which is not at all close to the non-Jewish attempt, "Jehovah" or "Yahweh")
_________________________
Sam

Top
#357006 - 01/25/05 09:49 PM Re: Is music proof of God?
Mr Zaz Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/08/04
Posts: 72
Loc: New York
God is for the weak.

Top
#357007 - 01/25/05 09:51 PM Re: Is music proof of God?
valarking Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/17/02
Posts: 2331
Loc: Dallas
 Quote:
Originally posted by Mr Zaz:
God is for the weak. [/b]
T-R-O-L-L

Top
#357008 - 01/25/05 10:01 PM Re: Is music proof of God?
Mr Zaz Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/08/04
Posts: 72
Loc: New York
I'm pretty sure what you mean by that, and hey, that's just how I feel. I feel like God is just for people that want a quick explanation for things, and don't want to try to understand science, and how fascinating it can be. That God is just something people have so that they can avoid the reality of life; that life is harsh. If someone dies, they've gone onto a better place. I don't think so, this better place is one without feelings, movement, or anything. That if things aren't going well, God has a reason for it, and it will all be well in the end.

That's just one view I have of not believing in God. I have many more reasons why I don't believe in God.

Oh, and to answer the topic's question, no music isn't proof of God. There are some pretty amazing human beings out there.

Top
#357009 - 01/26/05 12:44 AM Re: Is music proof of God?
Ell Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/09/05
Posts: 67
so if you don't believe in God, what do you believe?
_________________________
|| AwashAweigh || Captured On Film ||

Top
#357010 - 01/26/05 02:23 AM Re: Is music proof of God?
TimR Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/17/04
Posts: 3239
Loc: Virginia, USA
 Quote:
Originally posted by Beaver:
 Quote:
Originally posted by black_coffee:
I believe it is as close to clear evidence of God as we have.[/b]
Ah but you only experience music as something like evidence for God if you are already of the mindset to believe in God; plently of scientists would not hear music in the same way you do. [/b]
Plenty of scientists would hear music in EXACTLY the same way you do, with full appreciation for the beauty, inspiration, and creativity, but not see it as proof of God.

Plenty of Christians would agree with those scientists. (I use Christians as an example as I know mostly Christians; presumably other religions are capable of appreciating music as well. Also, Christian and scientist are not mutually exclusive.)

If you lay out the logic for "music as proof," I think it goes something like this.

I can't figure it out.

Therefore God must have done it.

Therefore God must exist.

The same logic is applied in many fields - evolution is an obvious one since someone mentioned it. If I can't understand how it could happen, it doesn't - there's no possibly my lack of understanding could be related to my stupidity, etc.

This logic is specious. God can't be proven, nor is there even any decent evidence for anything supernatural. That's why it's called faith.

While you can't study the supernatural scientifically (just can't seem to find ghosts when you need data) it is certainly possible to study the physiological and psychological responses to music at deeper and more detailed levels. So far nothing unexplainable in purely natural terms has turned up. Theoretically it could. That wouldn't prove God - failing to find one answer does not mean that another is automatically correct.

By the way, to mound's book recommendation let me add one. "Music through the Eyes of Faith." Or something like that, it's been a while since I read it, but it was well worth the read for anyone with an interest in either music or faith.

And finally: What the heck is an evolutionist musician? There isn't even such a thing as an evolutionist. There are evolutionary biologists, that's about as close as you could get I think. There are physicists, geologists, astronomers, chemists with some thoughts on the age of the universe that might apply to evolution, but it would be deliberately dishonest to call any of them an evolutionist, whether or not they might be theistic or atheistic outside of their field. Basically the term is a mean spirited insult not worthy of use by Christians, and with no descriptive utility.
_________________________
gotta go practice

Top
#357011 - 01/27/05 04:54 AM Re: Is music proof of God?
black_coffee Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/12/05
Posts: 23
Loc: York, England
_________________________
He got smaller as the world got big, the whiz man never fit him like the whiz kid did...

Ben Folds (legend)

Top
#357012 - 01/27/05 06:17 AM Re: Is music proof of God?
mound Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/10/04
Posts: 782
Loc: Rochester, NY
I'm not going to participate in this thread, as my views on the matter were covered to great depth over here:

http://www.pianoworld.com/ubb/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?/topic/10/7304.html#000021
_________________________
"You look hopefully for an idea and then you're humble when you find it and you wish your skills were better. To have even a half-baked touch of creativity is an honor."
-- Ernie Stires, composer

Top
#357013 - 01/27/05 06:46 AM Re: Is music proof of God?
BruceD Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 18223
Loc: Victoria, BC
Coffee, anyone?
_________________________
BruceD
- - - - -
Estonia 190

Top
#357014 - 01/27/05 08:45 AM Re: Is music proof of God?
AaronSF Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/07/04
Posts: 732
Loc: San Francisco
 Quote:
Originally posted by black_coffee:
I myself am completing a science degree. I understand evolution and have chosen not to believe in this. I also respect those who do, and don't challenge them as being unscientific. We all have the same evidence. It's just how we interpret it.
[/b]
Evolution is a scientific theory, not some crackpot idea, and it is supported by massive amounts of empirical data. Just as Einstein's General Theory of Relativity is a scientific theory, which is increasingly supported by empirical data. It's not a question of belief. It just is.

If you, as a scientist, think there is a better theory than evolution to cogently explain the development of life, then let's hear it. All the "competing theories" I've heard lean very heavily on positing the existence of a higher intelligence that actively participates in the process. Inconveniently for these "theorists," there is no empirical evidence of the existence of a higher intelligence, while there is tons of empirical evidence to support evolution theory.

And even if you feel you must insert the Almighty into the creation process (and why not), then why is it so hard to believe that this superior being created this incredibly complex system of evolution -- a true stroke of genius -- a self-promoting and self-correcting improvement project for life on His/Her favorite planet, just sit back in eternity and watch it work. No need to intervene or correct; it's self-correcting! Genius! Surely the product of a higher power!
_________________________
Aaron

Top
#357015 - 01/27/05 12:58 PM Re: Is music proof of God?
Auntie Lynn Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/07/04
Posts: 1122
Loc: San Francisco, CA
There are no atheists in the trenches or at the starting line...

Top
#357016 - 01/27/05 01:44 PM Re: Is music proof of God?
Mr. E Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/22/05
Posts: 426
 Quote:
Originally posted by Mr Zaz:
I'm pretty sure what you mean by that, and hey, that's just how I feel. I feel like God is just for people that want a quick explanation for things, and don't want to try to understand science, and how fascinating it can be. That God is just something people have so that they can avoid the reality of life; that life is harsh. If someone dies, they've gone onto a better place. I don't think so, this better place is one without feelings, movement, or anything. That if things aren't going well, God has a reason for it, and it will all be well in the end.

That's just one view I have of not believing in God. I have many more reasons why I don't believe in God.

Oh, and to answer the topic's question, no music isn't proof of God. There are some pretty amazing human beings out there. [/b]
I think science only shows the necessity of a greater being.

Take for instance the big bang theory (I don't know how up you guys are on your big bang). It all makes perfect sense, until you back track to the beginning. The initial explosion or event that triggered the big bang goes totally against all other scientific principles. If all the matter in the universe was together in the beginning, the gravitationl attraction would be too strong. Nothing could break it apart and overcome this force, except some higher power, something beyond scientific explanation.

Track back a little further, how did everything get their in the first place to allow the big bang? It can't have just been there forever. There must be some creator, something that preceded all other things. For me as a Christian, I believe its God, not because I'm too lazy to understand the science, but because I think its the only logical answer.

Top
#357017 - 01/28/05 02:54 AM Re: Is music proof of God?
TimR Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/17/04
Posts: 3239
Loc: Virginia, USA
 Quote:
Originally posted by Auntie Lynn:
There are no atheists in the trenches or at the starting line... [/b]
Like Pat Tillman, for example?

Simply not true. And it would be unworthy if it were true, to think that faith could only be motivated by fear. For shame.
_________________________
gotta go practice

Top
#357018 - 01/28/05 03:41 AM Re: Is music proof of God?
black_coffee Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/12/05
Posts: 23
Loc: York, England
 Quote:
Originally posted by AaronSF:
 Quote:

[/b]
Evolution is a scientific theory, not some crackpot idea, and it is supported by massive amounts of empirical data. Just as Einstein's General Theory of Relativity is a scientific theory, which is increasingly supported by empirical data. It's not a question of belief. It just is.

If you, as a scientist, think there is a better theory than evolution to cogently explain the development of life, then let's hear it. All the "competing theories" I've heard lean very heavily on positing the existence of a higher intelligence that actively participates in the process. Inconveniently for these "theorists," there is no empirical evidence of the existence of a higher intelligence, while there is tons of empirical evidence to support evolution theory.

[/QB]
How is there no empirical evidence for intelligent design? This is like looking at a plane and claiming that a tornado ripped through a junk yard and assembled it. That it had nothing to do with a creative process?

What evidence do you need? For there to be amazing and widely varying creatures of vast complexity? Oops, there are quite a few of these.

For everyone to be labelled with a specific computer like, yet more complex information code? Oops, I forgot... DNA. The universal code that exhibits a universal design but with vast differences...

One thing I detest is the assertion that there is vast amounts of empirical evidence for evolution and none for creation. The very fact that we are here, are ingeniusly made and are vastly more complicated than anything human creations have come close to is plenty of empirical evidence.

We can't even copy the structure of proteins. Make our won helix shaped code. We couldn't copy a kitten. Let alone create our own amazing creations.

And unless you find a better theory for the emergence of all of these amazing creatures, they will remain evidence for intelligent design.

Evolution is not a better theory. It just falls short. Why are there no universally accepted missing links? Why have there never been any observed positive mutations? Why is similair organ design seen on animals in widely varying ancestral lines? Why can't scientists figure out the origin of the first living creature? What about irreducible complexity?... It goes on and on. The only unscientific thing here is how evolution is purported as fact and most guys have no idea quite how shaky it is... It is a fairy tale.

Until there is a better theory, intelligent design will remain the only viable scientific option.
_________________________
He got smaller as the world got big, the whiz man never fit him like the whiz kid did...

Ben Folds (legend)

Top
#357019 - 01/28/05 06:21 AM Re: Is music proof of God?
TimR Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/17/04
Posts: 3239
Loc: Virginia, USA
 Quote:
Originally posted by black_coffee:

Until there is a better theory, intelligent design will remain the only viable scientific option. [/b]
Intelligent design is not a scientific option at all. There is no body of theory, no mechanisms, no tests, etc. It is religion thinly disguised in order to sneak it into a classroom, and I detest the dishonesty. I would respect any honest creationist who makes the claim that his God, the Baptist God or the Jewish God or whatever version, is the only true Creator. It might be misguided but at least it's honest. ID is not honest and cannot pass any scientific tests. (There have been a few falsifiable predictions proposed. As each failed, it was quietly withdrawn with no revisions to the "theory.")

The rest of your post is simply "argument from incredulity." Basically this boils down to "I personally am not able to understand how something complex could evolve, therefore it must not have." This is just plain silly, it doesn't make a case either for or against. You could be right or wrong, but this is not the argument to use.

I see the other poster found "evolutionist" in a dictionary. Good. Leave it there. The only time the term is ever used is by a creationist to be deliberately offensive. If you're not a jerk, don't use it. In fact it's a good test for jerkiness. I don't use the term evolutionist (often spelled evilutionist for more effect) when talking about scientists and I don't use the term cretinist when talking about creationists. I know many people do, I guess they don't value not being a jerk.
_________________________
gotta go practice

Top
#357020 - 01/28/05 06:44 AM Re: Is music proof of God?
black_coffee Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/12/05
Posts: 23
Loc: York, England
 Quote:
Originally posted by TimR:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by black_coffee:
[qb]
The rest of your post is simply "argument from incredulity." Basically this boils down to "I personally am not able to understand how something complex could evolve, therefore it must not have." This is just plain silly, it doesn't make a case either for or against. You could be right or wrong, but this is not the argument to use.

I see the other poster found "evolutionist" in a dictionary. Good. Leave it there. The only time the term is ever used is by a creationist to be deliberately offensive. If you're not a jerk, don't use it. In fact it's a good test for jerkiness. I don't use the term evolutionist (often spelled evilutionist for more effect) when talking about scientists and I don't use the term cretinist when talking about creationists. I know many people do, I guess they don't value not being a jerk. [/b]
Are you aware of your own hypocrisy????
What on earth is offensive about the word evolutionist? Someone who believes in evolution???? I could understand it were I to use 'evilutionist' yet I don't. And then you continue to use the word 'creationist' - as though if evolutionist were offensive then creationist isn't.

Go figure.

What you seem unable to understand is that there is a difference between not understanding evolution and not believing evolution. Your arguments would form a flimsy analogy.

For example, according to you, if I cannot understand how the faces in Mount Rushmore could have formed from random erosion - you would say that doesn't mean it didn't happen. Well, you are right. But it didn't actually happen that way, it happened from creative design. We think this, because apart from seeing it happen, we know such an erosion theory would not stand up to scientific rigour.

Same with evolution. I understand the theory of evolution. I understand how mutations are supposed to form survival benefits and these benefits are then passed down until we see upwards evolution occuring. Ameobas to ants, protozoa to politicians etc...

I simply do not believe this stands up to the evidence. What decent mutations have been observed? None. Mutations are simply copying errors in the DNA that cause diseases and defects. There has never been a positive mutation observed. Go check it out if you don't believe me.

I don't want to go through every reason why I believe evolution to be an unscientific and unfeasible fairytale. There are too many, nor is this the time or place. But don't you dare tell me that I don't believe because I don't understand.

I don't believe in it because I do understand why such a theory would fall short.
_________________________
He got smaller as the world got big, the whiz man never fit him like the whiz kid did...

Ben Folds (legend)

Top
#357021 - 01/28/05 06:45 AM Re: Is music proof of God?
Miss Mouse Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/29/04
Posts: 276
Loc: Southeastern Pennsylvania
Peter Kreeft, Professor of Philosophy at Boston College, has written some thoughtful books exploring a few of these questions. In his "Heaven: The Heart's Deepest Longing" he writes the following about music:
"Perhaps the most mysteriously moving of all earthly hauntings is music - so powerful, the ancients spontaneously ascribed it to gods (the Muses), not to human beings...No one can tell me music is mere aesthetic pleasure, bloom or ornament. It is a lifeline, a prophet, a divine haunting. If there is a Bach, there is a God.
All the hauntings seem to come from the same source and point back to it, however diverse the media through which they come. Not only faces, romantic love, pictures, stories, and music,...,the unforgettable power of certain lines of poetry - all these and thousands more are hauntings that seem to say the same thing: There is something bigger than the world out there hiding behind everything in the world, and our chief joy is with it. The world is its mask; we must unmask it." [pp. 110-111]
_________________________
Go Eagles! (Well, maybe next year.)

Top
#357022 - 01/28/05 07:52 AM Re: Is music proof of God?
mkorman Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/26/04
Posts: 180
Loc: Connecticut, USA
You guys are just bickering. Do you honestly think you are going to convince each other of anything?

Top
#357023 - 01/28/05 08:07 AM Re: Is music proof of God?
Groggy60 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 69
Loc: Ontario, Canada
Saying music is religion on this forum is preaching the choir. You would definitely get a different reaction on a car forum.

Music proves some of us where born with the gift to understand it.

Call me an evolutionist and I will certainly not be insulted. In fact, call me an evolutionist musician programmer mathie father husband "dog lover" and it will describe me pretty well. Call me a creationist and it will not insult me, it simply would not be true.

I fail to see that we have not witnessed evolution within a species in our history. That there is such a thing as cross species evolution is a matter of faith (for evolutionists). Also a matter of millions of years, which we have also not witnessed.

How the big bang THEORY proves God exists is silly. A theory I choose not to believe in. How did the great mass get there? Well then, how did God get there? I choose believe time never started and will never stop (like infinity, there will always be another second after this one or before PMI). Matter exists, it never didn't and will never not.
_________________________
George

Top
#357024 - 01/28/05 08:46 AM Re: Is music proof of God?
Rockitman Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/30/04
Posts: 284
Loc: Central Calif
Well Dammit, if there is a God, why doesn't he/she just show himself to us so we don't have to be in doubt our whole lives?
What is his purpose of hiding/not revealing himself?
I would think this would be one peaceful world if he would just show up once in a while.
I don't know, maybe on Leno or Letterman. You know, once a year or so, just to let us know he's here and watching.
Crime and the evil doings of man would all but disappear I think.
Isn't that what he would want? Does he enjoy watching us kill each other over him?
That is kind of perverted if true.
I don't believe that music is proof of God.
Proof is in the pudding. Seeing is believing.
And don't start on me with the whole Jesus thing.
They didn't have CNN back then, so don't try to tell me everything you read by a bunch of Jews in a book that a Roman Caeser had published is God's word.
ARgggggghhhhh!!!!

That felt good.

Top
#357025 - 01/28/05 09:45 AM Re: Is music proof of God?
AaronSF Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/07/04
Posts: 732
Loc: San Francisco
Double post, sorry!
_________________________
Aaron

Top
#357026 - 01/28/05 09:48 AM Re: Is music proof of God?
AaronSF Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/07/04
Posts: 732
Loc: San Francisco
Double post, sorry!
_________________________
Aaron

Top
#357027 - 01/28/05 09:50 AM Re: Is music proof of God?
AaronSF Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/07/04
Posts: 732
Loc: San Francisco
 Quote:
Originally posted by TimR:
The rest of your post is simply "argument from incredulity." Basically this boils down to "I personally am not able to understand how something complex could evolve, therefore it must not have." This is just plain silly, it doesn't make a case either for or against. You could be right or wrong, but this is not the argument to use.[/b]
Thanks, Tim. I couldn't agree with you more.

Evolution is a scientific theory, backed by empirical evidence. It is not a belief structure. If someone could prove to me that there was a better scientific explanation for how life came to be, I'd say great, I'll go with that then. But these I.D. people, coming from a belief framework, spin evolution into a belief system and try to cast those of us who think it is a good explanation as acolytes to the religion of evolution. It's ludicrous and would be laughable if these people had not succeeded in promoting their anti-intellectual ideas in our public schools.

I suppose it's no surprise they would think up this patently bogus attack on science. Their "science" is "faith based," so rigorous proof isn't required. If you can't explain a complex system, then it must be proof of I.D. (which is obviously just God in a professor's robes). That anyone can think the presence of unexplained phenomena is proof of the existence of I.D. is, frankly, frightening. It's the worst sort of anti-intellectualism, and in our poor country where "dumbing down" has apparently become a full-time profession of the religious right, this is a new low. Talk about hypocracy. Presenting I.D. as a valid "scientific" alternative to evolution is the height of hyprocracy and cynicism, as it contains not one ounce of science and is obviously religion thinly veiled. It's really sickening.

The worst of it is, I don't really care what religious beliefs people have or how they express them as long as they do not try to impose their religious beliefs on our government and its institutions by institutionalizing those beliefs in our government. Requiring a school district to teach I.D. along side evolution as though it were science is just such an intrusion. It is, at the very least, unconstitutional, and at most, quite dangerous. Dangerous because, left unchecked, it will succeed in inhibiting intellectual curiosity and stifling intellectual progress.

My greatest objection to these people's misguided and dangerous efforts is the blatant anti-intellectualism -- the notion that faith and intelligence cannot coexist, that intelligence must ultimately subjugate itself to faith and, if faith appears to contradict intelligence, then intelligence is given the old heave-ho. Oh yes, this is the way to progress! Progress back into another Dark Ages where we will have to, once again, recant that the earth is round and not the center of the universe. I won't let our society sink back into that "unevolved" slime willingly!

If Galileo had never been forced to recant, if science didn't have to live underground for centuries of our history, if pseudo-science had never been used to promote all manner of misdeeds and crimes against humankind, if Poh Pat had never killed 2.5 million Cambodians for being "intellectuals"...the list could go on...if none of these things had happened, I wouldn't worry quite so much. But I do worry. History does repeat itself.
_________________________
Aaron

Top
#357028 - 01/28/05 05:04 PM Re: Is music proof of God?
pianojerome Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 9868
 Quote:
Originally posted by Rockitman:
Well Dammit, if there is a God, why doesn't he/she just show himself to us so we don't have to be in doubt our whole lives?
What is his purpose of hiding/not revealing himself?
I would think this would be one peaceful world if he would just show up once in a while.
I don't know, maybe on Leno or Letterman. You know, once a year or so, just to let us know he's here and watching.
That felt good. [/b]
G-d shows his presence every day. In other words - miracles, coincidences, luck...
_________________________
Sam

Top
#357029 - 01/28/05 05:57 PM Re: Is music proof of God?
FranklySpeaking Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/22/04
Posts: 273
Loc: Texas
AaronSF,
Good post! (don't agree with all of it but nicely done..)
One of the biggest problems science has is at the earliest points ...ie. from a soup of chemicals came "poof" life - even a single cell organism is tremendously complicated and requires numerous subsystems to all be functioning at the same time (multi-layer cell membrane, mitochondria etc. ) - some call it "lightening struck the junk yard and 747 emerged" \:D problem...

the other big area is from the bacteria and/or single cell to the larger creature .... internal organs, all the hormonal, digestive, nervous systems, senses etc. etc. all come into being at the same time to produce a viable organism...

the more we know about life on a sub cellular or even atomic level its a wonder any of us are here to discuss it at all

in comparison to these problems the differentiation of species is not nearly as difficult and whether God or evolution I really don't care \:D \:D just nice to be here!!

IMHO

also most of the earlier scientists were religious and viewed science as a way to discover more about God's creation -- !!
_________________________
Jay

"If you can't be a good example, then you'll just have to be a horrible warning." -Katharine Hepburn

Top
#357030 - 01/28/05 06:14 PM Re: Is music proof of God?
markjpcs Offline


Registered: 08/31/04
Posts: 3170
Loc: Wisconsin
Aaron!

BRAVO!
_________________________
Visit us at:
The Piano World Practice Club

Top
#357031 - 01/29/05 12:32 AM Re: Is music proof of God?
Ell Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/09/05
Posts: 67
 Quote:
Originally posted by Rockitman:
Well Dammit, if there is a God, why doesn't he/she just show himself to us so we don't have to be in doubt our whole lives?
What is his purpose of hiding/not revealing himself?
I would think this would be one peaceful world if he would just show up once in a while.
I don't know, maybe on Leno or Letterman. You know, once a year or so, just to let us know he's here and watching.
Crime and the evil doings of man would all but disappear I think.
Isn't that what he would want? Does he enjoy watching us kill each other over him?
That is kind of perverted if true.
I don't believe that music is proof of God.
Proof is in the pudding. Seeing is believing.
And don't start on me with the whole Jesus thing.
They didn't have CNN back then, so don't try to tell me everything you read by a bunch of Jews in a book that a Roman Caeser had published is God's word.
ARgggggghhhhh!!!!

That felt good. [/b]
Let me get started...

Ok, the bible says: Hebrews 11:6 "But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him"

FIRST and SECOND question answered.

Peacful? Crime and evil doings would cease??:
Isaiah 14:12 "How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations! 13For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: 14I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High. 15Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit"

Satan was probably the closest angel to God, He saw God, He knkew God, yet there was iniquity found in Him.

THIRD and FOURTH question answered.

Revelation 21:4,5 "And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away. And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new"

FIFTH question answered.

"the whole Jesus thing?"
I have heard others say this, I cannot understand it, read the bible, where did His wisdom, His love come from?

Oh, and the bible, how was the prophecy (and many more) of Daniel 2, 7, 8- correct? Predicting four world empires that were to rise: Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece, and Rome.

The 66 books of the Bible were written:
1. On three continents.
2. In three languages.
3. By about 40 different people (kings, shepherds, scientists, attorneys, an army general, fishermen, priests, and a physician).
4. Over a period of about 1,500 years.
5. On the most controversial subjects.
6. By people who, in most cases, had never met.
7. By authors whose education and background varied greatly.

Then why are they so in harmony with each other??

There is SO MUCH more evidence of biblical wisdom, I could go on and on......

-------------------------------------------------

Oh, and follow the link: http://www.explorationfilms.com/folders.asp?action=display&record=1
Very interesting evidence there.

Interesting Quote from the site: "There are changes going on in the evolutionary community because of the growing evidence for design," Dr. Martin exclaims, "and scientists are beginning to realize there's no way mindless chance processes could create an ordered, artistic, complex universe like we have--explosions don't create order. The problem is, once people start to talk about a designer, are they willing to name him?"


Question: Why is there a distinct battle between love and hate, why in every story, is there good and bad? Why does good always win?-
Because: "God is Love" 1 John 4:8 "I am the Almighty God" Gen 17:1.
Love is the strongest.

Anyway,
THAT felt good!

God bless All.
_________________________
|| AwashAweigh || Captured On Film ||

Top
#357032 - 01/29/05 06:55 AM Re: Is music proof of God?
Miss Mouse Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/29/04
Posts: 276
Loc: Southeastern Pennsylvania
For those interested in the ongoing ID discussion, yesterday's Wall Street Journal (p. W11) had an article on the aftershock at the National Museum of History following the publication in its Proceedings of the Biological Society of Washington of what the author claimed was the "first peer-reviewed article to appear in a technical biology journal laying out the evidential case for Intelligent Design."

Umm - didn't someone else ask whether or not this thread belonged in the Coffee Room? Maybe yes?
_________________________
Go Eagles! (Well, maybe next year.)

Top
#357033 - 01/29/05 09:21 AM Re: Is music proof of God?
FranklySpeaking Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/22/04
Posts: 273
Loc: Texas
"Umm - didn't someone else ask whether or not this thread belonged in the Coffee Room? Maybe yes?"

yes it does ... but some things just sprout where they will \:D :rolleyes:

must be an early spring \:\)
_________________________
Jay

"If you can't be a good example, then you'll just have to be a horrible warning." -Katharine Hepburn

Top
#357034 - 01/29/05 09:25 AM Re: Is music proof of God?
signa Offline
8000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/06/04
Posts: 8483
Loc: Ohio, USA
music speaks for itself with or without God. i don't think we need either God/bible here in piano corner.

Top
#357035 - 01/29/05 09:58 AM Re: Is music proof of God?
AaronSF Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/07/04
Posts: 732
Loc: San Francisco
 Quote:
Originally posted by signa:
music speaks for itself with or without God. i don't think we need either God/bible here in piano corner. [/b]
I agree totally, Signa, going back to the original topic. But this thread has taken on an off-topic, life of its own. If Frank wants to move this thread to the CR, I think that would be great. That's really where it belongs.

 Quote:
Originally posted by FranklySpeaking:
also most of the earlier scientists were religious and viewed science as a way to discover more about God's creation -- !! [/b]
Yes, indeed, which is why I cannot understand how science and religion are incompatible and why historically humans keep coming back to this place of mistrusting science and thinking it somehow attacks religion. It is as though the atavistic, superstitious part of humans keeps rearing its ugly head. Ironic to me because all monotheistic religions claim to be opposed to superstition and open to enlightenment. I guess the superstitious part of humans just lives at a very primal level, and it is sometimes hard to mitigate it with either intelligence or enlightened faith.

And thanks, FS, for your great post above. I agree with you and am aware of those complexities of how it all began, down there on the pre-cellular level, the primordial soup. I don't know that we'll ever get it all figured out (what fun would that be!), but it is surely in our nature to try, our God-given nauture, if you will. Unexplained phenomena should be a spur to investigate, to delve deeper into the mystery and wonder of life. I do not believe it is a signpost from the Almighty to close the door on further inquiry.
_________________________
Aaron

Top
#357036 - 01/29/05 10:21 AM Re: Is music proof of God?
rach3 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/13/04
Posts: 111
there is without a doubt a "god" out there, whether it be what we humans think of as a master creator who thinks similarly to us and possessed infinite knowledge to create the universe or some kind of force far more complex then we can even comprehend. i dont believe that christianity is correct though ,despite going to a christian school and also the fact that my parents are constantly trying to prove me wrong. i think the bible could possibly be the divine word of god, but i also think that a lot of it was altered or misinterpreted due to the large amount of symbolism and what not that occurs throughout it.

Top
#357037 - 01/29/05 10:36 AM Re: Is music proof of God?
CrashTest Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/23/01
Posts: 4111
This is a question that also affects me. Religion aside, and even with considering evolution, it is still amazing how humans and our world have turned out.

We function perfectly, and our world functions perfectly. If we were created like this already or if we evolved to this step it really does not matter, because we ended up here, regardless.

Now, is this proof of God? Well, look at how creative humans are, with technology, which often imitates the design of nature itself. (Birds, airplanes, etc.)

Perhaps it is not a Christian God, or a Jewish God, but I think that there has to be something there with intelligence. I fail to see how we can live in a world, where everything works so perfectly in its design, and it be made randomly. (even though humans choose to not act perfectly, our bodies function with practicality, and nature itself is amazing i its design). Our technology and art is made with intelligence and order in mind, which to me, reflects our outside world. It would make sense if there is a creative intelligence behind it all, I don't see any other way. If someone can tell me how this comes out of a random process, I'll be happy to listen. Even evolution is not random, but a design.

Top
#357038 - 01/29/05 10:44 AM Re: Is music proof of God?
BruceD Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 18223
Loc: Victoria, BC
Those who quote the Bible as irrefutable proof of God's existence and who claim it is His "word" seem to me to forget who wrote the Bible, as we know it: fallible, impressionable human beings - albeit some were scholars of their time - whose lack of understanding of the forces of nature attributed everything they couldn't understand to inexplicable - hence, divine - forces.

Yet the same individuals would think it ludicrous to advocate accepting the Ancients' concept of the world as flat with the Mediterranean at its centre, or the Earth as a plate riding on the back of a tortoise or the theory that Earth is the centre of the Universe.

I'm getting thirsty; would anyone care to join me for coffee?

Regards,
_________________________
BruceD
- - - - -
Estonia 190

Top
#357039 - 01/30/05 08:46 AM Re: Is music proof of God?
black_coffee Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/12/05
Posts: 23
Loc: York, England
 Quote:
Originally posted by AaronSF:
 Quote:
Originally posted by TimR:
The rest of your post is simply "argument from incredulity." Basically this boils down to "I personally am not able to understand how something complex could evolve, therefore it must not have." This is just plain silly, it doesn't make a case either for or against. You could be right or wrong, but this is not the argument to use.[/b]
Thanks, Tim. I couldn't agree with you more.

Evolution is a scientific theory, backed by empirical evidence. It is not a belief structure.

I suppose it's no surprise they would think up this patently bogus attack on science. Their "science" is "faith based," so rigorous proof isn't required. If you can't explain a complex system, then it must be proof of I.D. (which is obviously just God in a professor's robes). That anyone can think the presence of unexplained phenomena is proof of the existence of I.D. is, frankly, frightening. It's the worst sort of anti-intellectualism, and in our poor country where "dumbing down" has apparently become a full-time profession of the religious right, this is a new low. Talk about hypocracy. Presenting I.D. as a valid "scientific" alternative to evolution is the height of hyprocracy and cynicism, as it contains not one ounce of science and is obviously religion thinly veiled. It's really sickening.

[/b]
This frustrates me more and more. How you equate not understanding evolution into not believing evolution is ludicrous. And yet you back each other up with the same poor arguments.

One of the fundamental, most basic, most important principles of information theory is that a code requires information. There has never been an example of a code, where this code was not programmed.

Yet, DNA, the helix shaped, compact, microscopic genius that forms the instructions for life is somehow immune to this very logical reasoning. Would you look at Beethoven's Moonlight Sonata and suggest that he'd simply thrown random paint on the canvas?? With all our amazing technology and intelligence, we can't even begin to form this masterpiece of DNA - and yet we are happy to believe that it somehow whipped itself into shape out of some primordial slime???

Yes, and what's even sadder is this is the same nation that spends billions on S.E.T.I. - who when observing a very simple 'pattern' of pulses from outer space, are inclined to believe that such a simple arguably random pattern definitely implies a greater intelligence.

Go figure on the warped logic there.

Intelligent design theory is backed up by the fact that living things show design.

If an unknown vehicle / machine were to turn up outside your door one morning and you had no real way of tracking the maker - would you assume it had just evolved, simply because the fact you couldn't understand how it could have evolved doesn't mean it hadn't. No, of course you don't.

Evolution is therefore every bit as much of a faith system as believing that there is design behind the living world. We can only ever observe microevolution (e.g. dogs to different dogs) so therefore no matter how much evidence we have it remains a faith system because we can never see it.

And the fact is, there is very little evidence for evolution.

Really question yourselves on fossils - you will find there are few and far between missing links - and even these are debatable. There are certainly not the countless amounts Darwin predicted.

Mutations - the mechanism for upwards evolution. Even some of the best professors are struggling with this as there is simply no evidence for a good mutation. There should be at least plenty.

This is just the tip - don't believe me then check it out yourself - find anything specific let me know.

I've spent a long time studying biology at degree level, the same as a car mechanic would study a car. And like the car mechanic I have concluded there is no way such creative and efficient design could have brought itself into existence on its own. Evolution requires so much more faith.
_________________________
He got smaller as the world got big, the whiz man never fit him like the whiz kid did...

Ben Folds (legend)

Top
#357040 - 01/30/05 09:52 AM Re: Is music proof of God?
Mr. E Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/22/05
Posts: 426
Thank you coffee, you summed up my thoughts and feelings perfectly.

Top
#357041 - 01/30/05 10:12 AM Re: Is music proof of God?
Miss Mouse Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/29/04
Posts: 276
Loc: Southeastern Pennsylvania
Oops, that should say National Museum of Natural History in the post above.
_________________________
Go Eagles! (Well, maybe next year.)

Top
#357042 - 01/30/05 10:34 AM Re: Is music proof of God?
AaronSF Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/07/04
Posts: 732
Loc: San Francisco
Even if, black-coffee,for the sake of argument, I grant you most of your argument about the lack of a lot of evidence to support evolution, I don't see how that then points us toward I.D. In fact it begs the question. I understand how it might point to gaps in our knowledge, but it's a giant leap of faith from a theory that is backed by empirical data (however slight you think it is) to a theory supported by nothing other than your wish to believe that complex biological systems "prove" the existence of I.D. That's entirely backward logic and it's not scientific. A scientific theory requires supporting empirical evidence, not the absence of it. Positing an untestable explanation for phenomena you don't understand is unscientific. Calling it science does not make it so.
_________________________
Aaron

Top
#357043 - 01/30/05 11:45 AM Re: Is music proof of God?
Mr. E Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/22/05
Posts: 426
How is a theory that all life originated from a single common ancestor testable?? Have they tested it??

Top
#357044 - 01/30/05 03:32 PM Re: Is music proof of God?
Piana Justice Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/16/05
Posts: 299
Loc: Greenville, NC
-my sincerest apologies if i haven't been here in a while. for some odd reason i keep getting 'suspended' every now and then for some odd reason.
-to pianojerome, i kinda thought that you Jews spelled God G-d, b/c you don't really worship him technically, but then i found out from a Christian program that culturally, that's how they spell God.
-anyway, to explain you question, the reason i believe that Jews don't really celebrate Xmas is b/c they rejected Christ when he was on the Earth preaching his message, but the Gentiles accepted it with open arms.
-but after God takes the Christians [saints] outta here into Heaven to protect them from the terrible tragedies [judgements] that lie ahead for the sinners and unbelievers, he then turns to the Jews in the Middle East, [not America] who haven't yet been exposed to the truth. the reason for this is that since the time of Jesus, the Gospels started in the Middle East and gradually moved westward until it moved to America, as it is now. then when the Tribulation Period [known as the Apocalypse] finally arrives, then it goes back East again after it leaves the West Coast.
-to Mr. Zac and Rockitman, i'm not trying to get you to believe in God or even prove his existence, but don't you think it's a little harsh to resent God b/c he isn't visible to the naked, human eye? you see God at work as the seasons change, when children are concieved [if you have any], when you hear a beautiful voice sing, when someone [duh!!!] has superb piano abilities, etc. i could go on and on. someone even said that you can't even take you next BREATH w/o God's help [or existance].
-not even in my most infinite imagination can i understand some things [that God are behind], and some things aren't meant to be understood, just accepted.
-scientists often hypothosize that the Earth- you might as well say- formed outta nothing. if there was such thing as 'The Big Bang', then who caused it? it had to have been SOMEONE. who made the Earth we're standing on? who put life in you when you were concieved? who moved the dinosaurs [and other really large, prehistoric species that can't coexist with humans] outta the way so that a way could be made for our existance?
_________________________

Top
#357045 - 01/30/05 03:56 PM Re: Is music proof of God?
ivorythumper Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/04/04
Posts: 1730
Loc: The Great American Southwest
 Quote:
Originally posted by Miss Mouse:
Peter Kreeft, Professor of Philosophy at Boston College, has written some thoughtful books exploring a few of these questions. In his "Heaven: The Heart's Deepest Longing" he writes the following about music:
"Perhaps the most mysteriously moving of all earthly hauntings is music - so powerful, the ancients spontaneously ascribed it to gods (the Muses), not to human beings...No one can tell me music is mere aesthetic pleasure, bloom or ornament. It is a lifeline, a prophet, a divine haunting. If there is a Bach, there is a God.
All the hauntings seem to come from the same source and point back to it, however diverse the media through which they come. Not only faces, romantic love, pictures, stories, and music,...,the unforgettable power of certain lines of poetry - all these and thousands more are hauntings that seem to say the same thing: There is something bigger than the world out there hiding behind everything in the world, and our chief joy is with it. The world is its mask; we must unmask it." [pp. 110-111] [/b]
Hey there, Miss Mouse -- I always enjoy reading Peter Kreeft! His "Christianity for Modern Pagans", an annotation of Pascal's Pensees is delightful. He's quite the raconteur, and a true gentleman in person.

Did you study at BC ("Barely Catholic" as Prof. Kreeft calls it)?
_________________________
Estonically yours,

Ivorythumper

"Man without mysticism is a monster"

Top
#357046 - 01/30/05 04:19 PM Re: Is music proof of God?
Logos Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/22/04
Posts: 65
Peter Kreeft is a clueless idiot. I recognized his name from this article:

http://www.catholiceducation.org/articles/civilization/cc0011.html

He hasn't even got the slightest understanding of what he's talking about. It's laughable. The fact that this person is a professor of philosophy disturbs and saddens me.

Top
#357047 - 01/30/05 08:37 PM Re: Is music proof of God?
Opus_Maximus Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/27/04
Posts: 1497
Music puts me in a state of such sublime being that my body and spirit are numbed
with ecstacy.


Heroin does the same.

Is THAT proof of god?

Top
#357048 - 01/30/05 11:47 PM Re: Is music proof of God?
snap_apple Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/21/03
Posts: 710
Here's a question

How do scientific theories or science in general disprove the existence of a greater power?

I find it odd that so many religious people get so defensive when challenged with scientific data. In reality there is nothing to be frightened about because all it really boils down to is rhetoric.

Take for example the creation of the universe and life on this planet, like is being discussed. Lets say that evolution is the actual process that took place, that through mutations and specie survival nature in a sense created itself. So what? what does that prove or disaprove. So we started out as a few chemicals floating around empty nothing...chemicals that happen to be given scary scientific terms. What are those chemicals really? whats hydrogen really? I know it may sound like just crappy intellectual mumbo jumbo but if you stop and think about it all the science community has really done is taken names to describe what certain things are. Nature...what is nature? when describing evolution you are describing natures process of creating itself. Well.... what is nature? what if you replaced nature with God? What if you replaced everything with God? What if you give no names to anything?

It all boils down to a difference in words. When you scientifically prove something you are merely doing it by organizing all the elements that participate in the process into different names so you can clearly "prove" your theory. But all of these "scientifically" proven theories are merely articulated through man given terms and they really don't disprove or prove anything they just communicate and allow us to understand.

Of course I am also speaking about a greater power in a more broad sense rather then in the strict Christian sense but my point is just because something sounds factually solid backed up by unarguable evidence does not disprove the existence of a greater force. I again refer back to my statement about nature, what if you replaced the broad term "nature" with "God" then what would the evolution theory sound like? What if you replaced all the names of various chemicals with names like spirit, soul, God, creator, what would the difference be between the religious and the scientific?

Is the difference between scientific and spiritual really just a matter of descriptive terms?

Top
#357049 - 01/31/05 12:13 AM Re: Is music proof of God?
TimR Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/17/04
Posts: 3239
Loc: Virginia, USA
 Quote:
Originally posted by black_coffee:
This frustrates me more and more. How you equate not understanding evolution into not believing evolution is ludicrous. And yet you back each other up with the same poor arguments.

[/b]
I can see why it would be frustrating, coming from your personal viewpoint. And yet, coming from ours, this equation seems blindingly obvious. Let me define "ours" first. I am a Christian who accepts evolution and a 4.55e9 year earth because the evidence is overwhelming.

And our viewpoint is this: We have heard the same song over and over. "I studied evolution and found it scientifically flawed, so I started reading the Bible and became a Christian." It is an apocryphal story. It even has that apocryphal feel to it. We have not been able to find a single case where it is true. Of all the people we've talked to who have "studied" evolution and found it "flawed," we have not found one who understands even the simplest details. Not one.

So when you come here and say, "I studied it." "I understand it." "It doesn't make sense." you have to realize you are not the first, nor the hundredth, nor the thousandth person who's said that to us. You could be telling the truth. You could be a PhD candidate wh's been studying molecular genetics for a decade, and you might really know your stuff. But in our view, the odds are pretty long against you. We think you probably 1) started from the viewpoint that the Bible is inerrant and you would reject anything else no matter how well supported; 2) read a couple of books and websites by Creationists who had little to no understanding of science or evolution; and 3) deluded yourself into thinking you understood.

Now I apologize in advance if you are really that 1 in 10,000 people who've actually taken a single college level biology course and passed it. But I think you can see why my position is really a reasonable one to start from.

You might recall there have been a number of previous cases where science appeared to be at odds with the bible. For example, the Bible says pretty clearly the earth is flat, the firmament (sky) is a solid ceiling, and the sun is fixed in the firmament. That was the church's perspective for a lot of centuries, and anyone who disagreed was a heretic, and many of them were burned for it. Scientists, many who were Christian, eventually accumulated enough evidence to cause some (but not all) to believe the earth was round and actually orbitted the sun. Some people still reject this on the basis of the bible. Others lost all faith in the bible. Others (kind of like me) have a curious way of retaining faith yet accepting the evidence for reality. Evolution is no different. The facts are there, and no amount of wishing makes them go away. There is no scientific dispute, though there are details to be worked out and areas that remain unknown. Most of the mainstream Christian denominations (Roman Catholic, Anglican, some Lutheran, etc.) agree.

The Bible was after all selected quite a few years ago, and if we were allowed to add to it today (and why not?) then some of this might be no problem. You do know why there are 66 books in the Bible, right? A long time ago, somewhere around 379 (I didn't look it up, this is from memory, somewhere around then) a committee got together, took all the suggested books, and separated them into two stacks. Yup, this one is inspired; nope, don't think so. When it ended, there were 66 in the keep stack and about 100 in the discard stack. People being people, about ten minutes later a few started sneaking stuff out of the discard stack they just couldn't bear to let go, and there are a few in the keep pile they were unsure of too, but the vote had been taken.
_________________________
gotta go practice

Top
#357050 - 01/31/05 02:41 AM Re: Is music proof of God?
black_coffee Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/12/05
Posts: 23
Loc: York, England
Hey Tim,

I don't mind that neither of us will convince the other of our respective views, all I have tried to say is that evolution is a process, that if happened - scientists are not sure what mechanism could have caused it (mutations aren't the answer) and have very little empirical evidence to be sure it did. And in a time when we find out more and more of lifes amazing little intracacies, it seems backwards logic to still assume blindly that evolution must have occured. I can just imagine standing in front of God, and saying
"Gees, where was the evidence?" and him pointing right back and saying "What did you need, a signature?"

I agree that just pointing toward complex biological systems and shouting "design" is in itself closed minded and bereft of scientific inquiry. But essentially, until one can find a sensible naturalistic method of origin for a highly complex code, then one must logically infer a code maker.

As for your mud slinging and stereotyping of creationists, then that's just intellectual belittling - I have never tried to do the same regarding any scientists who advocate evolution. Of course there will be the oddball who will be heavy in fundamentalist rhetoric and light on substance, but I'm sure that oddballs are a regular and unfortunate minority of any group.

As for the Earth being flat, I don't believe the writers of the Bible infer this. If it refers to the 'four corners of the earth' then it is doing no worse than the writers of novles nowadays, it could easily be regarded as figurative speech.

I think that your faith rests on uneasy foundations. If you truly believe the Bible rests on as shaky foundations as you imply - that it is factually incorrect (scientifically) and highly fallible in its collation then on what basis do you believe any of it? What thought process do you go through to decide which bit you rest your faith upon and which bits are simply incorrect? In a book that claims to be the inerrant word of God, it has to be all or nothing.
_________________________
He got smaller as the world got big, the whiz man never fit him like the whiz kid did...

Ben Folds (legend)

Top
#357051 - 01/31/05 04:12 AM Re: Is music proof of God?
TimR Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/17/04
Posts: 3239
Loc: Virginia, USA
 Quote:
Originally posted by black_coffee:
Hey Tim,


I think that your faith rests on uneasy foundations. If you truly believe the Bible rests on as shaky foundations as you imply - that it is factually incorrect (scientifically) and highly fallible in its collation then on what basis do you believe any of it? [/b]
That is an insightful question and one that I think all honest and intelligent believers must grapple with.

On the one hand, I can state the obvious. That's why it's called faith, because there's no evidence and we believe it anyway. A desperate search for evidence, and a blindness to the fact that what you turn up is fatally flawed, implies even less faith. Ultimately this argument fails to satisfy - carried to its logical conclusion it can only argue for both of us to lose faith.

Last week I read two books on the subject that you might find interesting and challenging. Neither contains any science or math, don't worry. They are "The End of Faith," by Sam Harris, and "Why Christianity must Change or Die" by Bishop Spong. Harris is an atheist who suggests that the survival of the world may depend on examining the sacrosanct tenets of religion with the same rigor we do scientific theories. Spong is a devout believer who nevertheless has come to some troubling (and some say heretical) conclusions about the nature of our beliefs and what they must be to survive. Neither has the Ultimate Answer but both have plenty to say.

Some of Spong's comments actually could lead us into the direction of speculating about a connection between music and God - not so much a proof, but an intriguing possibility. However, the musical God support would not extend to a theist God, but only a more generalized God as love, beauty, source of being, etc. It could not reach to the personal, interceding, controlling vision that I think you want to find.
_________________________
gotta go practice

Top
#357052 - 01/31/05 07:28 AM Re: Is music proof of God?
black_coffee Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/12/05
Posts: 23
Loc: York, England
 Quote:
Originally posted by TimR:
 Quote:
Originally posted by black_coffee:
Hey Tim,


I think that your faith rests on uneasy foundations. If you truly believe the Bible rests on as shaky foundations as you imply - that it is factually incorrect (scientifically) and highly fallible in its collation then on what basis do you believe any of it? [/b]
That is an insightful question and one that I think all honest and intelligent believers must grapple with.

On the one hand, I can state the obvious. That's why it's called faith, because there's no evidence and we believe it anyway.

Harris is an atheist who suggests that the survival of the world may depend on examining the sacrosanct tenets of religion with the same rigor we do scientific theories. Spong is a devout believer who nevertheless has come to some troubling (and some say heretical) conclusions about the nature of our beliefs and what they must be to survive. Neither has the Ultimate Answer but both have plenty to say.

[/b]
I'm glad we've calmed down!!!

I'm really sorry I seem to take offence to what you say so much, but i want to pick a bone about your definition of faith.

Blind faith is when you believe in something even though there is no evidence. Or contrary to the evidence.

Faith, in its true form, is when you have evidence. But you have to have faith to believe in it as it is something that you can never prove. For example, you have faith that your computer will not just blow up in your face. Blind faith would be to believe that it will...

I agree that a lot of people of all religions do not examine their belief system as much as they should do. But let us not heap so much praise on the credibility of all scientifists and their theories. Scientists are just as prone to their own a priori belief systems and hence forth theories that have been widely acclaimed to be universally true, have soon been found to be based on very little evidence.

Take the atom, or the steady state theory, or Hackel's embryonic recapitualation. All widely praised discoveries that have soon been replaced by better theories. Hackel's illustrations of embryonic recapitulation are a particularly noteable example as they stood as fact for many a year, and were found to be a farce, and almost completely contrived.

People of today treat scientists like the priests and rabbis were once treated, with awe and respect. 99% will never challenge anything. Don't get me wrong, I am not saying they are deceitful, that would of course only be a tiny minority, but nonetheless, they are fallible human beings.

I am not a fan of Spong particularly. I would dislike to be named a literiser, but I feel strongly that you take The Bible as a whole or nothing at all.

Take the start of one of Spong's books...

He claims:

"No word is objective; hence no word ever passes from the lips of one person into the hearing of another without being changed in meaning. … Words are never the truth. They are only the medium of truth … Words become the vehicles by which experiences are shared."

Yet Spong wants us to believe that his words are true and that fundamentalists are most certainly wrong. Such absolute and certain statements sound strange from a bishop who condemns a church for prescribing certainty and absolutes.
_________________________
He got smaller as the world got big, the whiz man never fit him like the whiz kid did...

Ben Folds (legend)

Top
#357053 - 01/31/05 07:55 AM Re: Is music proof of God?
FranklySpeaking Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/22/04
Posts: 273
Loc: Texas
Agreed, time to adjourn to the coffee room ...

\:D
_________________________
Jay

"If you can't be a good example, then you'll just have to be a horrible warning." -Katharine Hepburn

Top
#357054 - 01/31/05 08:20 AM Re: Is music proof of God?
black_coffee Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/12/05
Posts: 23
Loc: York, England
Lol! I'm sorry, but sometimes you can't help where a conversation takes you. It was more relevant at the start, but nonetheless, is a worthy discussion.
_________________________
He got smaller as the world got big, the whiz man never fit him like the whiz kid did...

Ben Folds (legend)

Top
#357055 - 01/31/05 11:00 AM Re: Is music proof of God?
Miss Mouse Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/29/04
Posts: 276
Loc: Southeastern Pennsylvania
Ivorythumper - no BC credentials; just enjoy reading Kreeft. Haven't read the one you note but will enjoy picking up a copy.

This is quite a discussion!
_________________________
Go Eagles! (Well, maybe next year.)

Top
#357056 - 02/01/05 12:36 AM Re: Is music proof of God?
TimR Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/17/04
Posts: 3239
Loc: Virginia, USA
Hee, hee, not a winnable argument in sight here, and I usually don't bother. Sometimes though I feel I have to say something, because silence is assent, and I don't want it to appear that the American YEC position is universal. "Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live," in the quaint KJV version, should be interpreted today as an obligation to fight ignorance and superstition. You can probably guess I'm not a literalist.

Here, Augustine said it better than I can:

"39. Usually, even a non-Christian knows something about the­ earth, the
heavens, and the other elements of this world, about the mot­ion and orbit of
the stars and even their size and relative positions, about ­the predictable
eclipses of the sun and moon, the cycles of the years and th­e seasons, about
the kinds of animals, shrubs, stones, and so forth, and this­ knowledge he
holds to as being certain from reason and experience. Now, i­t is a
disgraceful and dangerous thing for an infidel to hear a Chr­istian,
presumably giving the meaning of Holy Scripture, talking non­sense on these
topics; and we should take all means to prevent such an emba­rrassing
situation, in which people show up vast ignorance in a Chris­tian and laugh
it to scorn. The shame is not so much that an ignorant indiv­idual is
derided, but that people outside the household of faith thin­k our sacred
writers held such opinions, and, to the great loss of those ­for whose
salvation we toil, the writers of our Scripture are criticiz­ed and rejected
as unlearned men. If they find a Christian mistaken in a fie­ld in which they
themselves know well and hear him maintaining his foolish op­inions about our
books, how are they going to believe those books in matters ­concerning the
resurrection of the dead, the hope of eternal life, and the ­kingdom of
heaven, when they think their pages are full of falsehoods o­n facts which
they themselves have learnt from experience and the light of­ reason?
Reckless and incompetent expounders of Holy Scripture bring ­untold trouble
and sorrow on their wiser brethren when they are caught in o­ne of their
mischievous false opinions and are taken to task by those wh­o are not bound
by the authority of our sacred books. For then, to defend th­eir utterly
foolish and obviously untrue statements, they will try to ca­ll upon Holy
Scripture for proof and even recite from memory many passage­s which they
think support their position, although "they understand neit­her what they
say nor the things about which they make assertion."
_________________________
gotta go practice

Top
#357057 - 02/03/05 03:49 AM Re: Is music proof of God?
black_coffee Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/12/05
Posts: 23
Loc: York, England
Were you to provide even a smidgen of evidence that it is in fact my opinions not yours that are foolish, then that wouldn't annoy me a smuch as it does.

Not only are most of your arguments baseless, and self contradictory but are also illogical and inconsistent.

I feel sorry that you are too weak to follow any of your beliefs through to their logical conclusion.

Compromising the bible to be flawed and inaccurate simply leads one to the logical conclusion of that it must be flawed on its most contraversial topic, that of the ressurection. So if you believe that it is wrong and flawed - why believe it? Be a man and follow that through to its logical conclusion.

Or, how about this? Stop following the crowd, the so called intellectual skeptics, and stand up for what you believe, open your mind and look at things on your own.

Either way, stop faffing around as somebody who doesn't really believe anything for fear of being wrong.
_________________________
He got smaller as the world got big, the whiz man never fit him like the whiz kid did...

Ben Folds (legend)

Top
#357058 - 02/03/05 07:37 AM Re: Is music proof of God?
TimR Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/17/04
Posts: 3239
Loc: Virginia, USA
 Quote:
Originally posted by black_coffee:
Were you to provide even a smidgen of evidence that it is in fact my opinions not yours that are foolish, then that wouldn't annoy me a smuch as it does.

[/b]
You can see stars that are 15 billion light years away. With your own eyes. And you claim them to be 6,000 years old. Further evidence is not required, nor does it appear there would be any sense in providing it to you.

I give up, you cannot be reasoned with. I'm out of here, you are welcome to the last word, I will not respond further.

I would like to say this without being offensive but there is sadly no way, yet the topic cannot be avoided. You believe my brand of Christianity to be heretical because we do not insist on a literal reading of Genesis (nor do most of the Christian denominations). I am terrified of your brand of Christianity, because historically it has been the brand of Christianity that burned books, started wars, burned witches, bombed abortion clinics, beat up gays, all in the name of Jesus with a perfectly clear conscience.

I wish that I DID know how to talk to you, but I don't. Good bye.
_________________________
gotta go practice

Top
#357059 - 02/04/05 04:20 AM Re: Is music proof of God?
black_coffee Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/12/05
Posts: 23
Loc: York, England
When did I claim to be a fundamentalisit?

When did I claim to believe in a 6,000 yr old earth? I simply challenge your dogmatic belief in evolution, despite the lack of facts and empirical evidence. And for this, despite claiming to be open minded, you label me a homosexual hating, scientifically backwards, fundamentalist terrorist???

Who is closed minded?

I am simply scared of your brand. The type that are too afraid to believe in anything - and so compromise until there is nothing left to believe.

I wish that I could understand you, but I don't think that even you understand yourself.

Goodbye.
_________________________
He got smaller as the world got big, the whiz man never fit him like the whiz kid did...

Ben Folds (legend)

Top
#357060 - 02/04/05 06:08 AM Re: Is music proof of God?
signa Offline
8000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/06/04
Posts: 8483
Loc: Ohio, USA
please leave music alone, away from god or whatever!

Top
#357061 - 02/05/05 02:22 PM Re: Is music proof of God?
Piana Justice Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/16/05
Posts: 299
Loc: Greenville, NC
anyway, i think that if all the great composers out there have made their themes famous [including the most famous hit songs of all time], and up to this day unforgetable, then God must be in it somewhere, even if they're really boring, b/c i know songs and themes that were way more interesting and were ignored.
_________________________

Top
#357062 - 02/05/05 02:42 PM Re: Is music proof of God?
ishldbpracticing88 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/21/05
Posts: 103
Loc: SC
Thought this was interesting!
_________________________
"The aim and the final reason of all music should be nothing else but the glory of God and the refreshment of the human spirit."
-Johann Sebastian Bach

P.S. Rach rocks

Top
Page 1 of 4 1 2 3 4 >

Moderator:  Brendan, Kreisler 
What's Hot!!

Trade Regrets:
Barry "Bear" Arnaut

(ad) Yamaha
Yamaha
Ad (Seiler/Knabe)
Seiler Pianos
(ad) HAILUN Pianos
Hailun Pianos - Click for More
(125ad) Dampp Chaser
Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver
(ad) Lindeblad Piano
Lindeblad Piano Restoration
(ad) Piano Music Sale - Dover Publications
Piano Music Sale
Sheet Music Plus (125)
Sheet Music Plus Featured Sale
New Topics - Multiple Forums
Brahms Sonatas, Op 120 (clarinet/viola & piano): Editions?
by DaveInJapan
11/23/14 07:03 PM
Friction in actions
by Withindale
11/23/14 06:55 PM
Nord Electro 2
by Auver
11/23/14 06:23 PM
Suites recital -addendum
by Ganddalf
11/23/14 04:47 PM
Playing piano without a piano
by Cavell
11/23/14 04:31 PM
Forum Stats
77023 Members
42 Forums
159300 Topics
2340047 Posts

Max Online: 15252 @ 03/21/10 11:39 PM
Gift Ideas for Music Lovers!
Find the Perfect Gift for the Music Lovers on your List!
Visit our online store today.

Visit our online store for gifts for music lovers

 
Help keep the forums up and running with a donation, any amount is appreciated!
Or by becoming a Subscribing member! Thank-you.
Donate   Subscribe
 
Our Piano Related Classified Ads
|
Dealers | Tuners | Lessons | Movers | Restorations | Pianos For Sale | Sell Your Piano |

Advertise on Piano World
| Subscribe | Piano World | PianoSupplies.com | Advertise on Piano World | Donate | Link to Us | Classifieds |
| |Contact | Privacy | Legal | About Us | Site Map | Free Newsletter | Press Room |


copyright 1997 - 2014 Piano World ® all rights reserved
No part of this site may be reproduced without prior written permission