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Double post, sorry!

Thanks, Tim. I couldn't agree with you more.

Evolution is a scientific theory, backed by empirical evidence. It is not a belief structure. If someone could prove to me that there was a better scientific explanation for how life came to be, I'd say great, I'll go with that then. But these I.D. people, coming from a belief framework, spin evolution into a belief system and try to cast those of us who think it is a good explanation as acolytes to the religion of evolution. It's ludicrous and would be laughable if these people had not succeeded in promoting their anti-intellectual ideas in our public schools.

I suppose it's no surprise they would think up this patently bogus attack on science. Their "science" is "faith based," so rigorous proof isn't required. If you can't explain a complex system, then it must be proof of I.D. (which is obviously just God in a professor's robes). That anyone can think the presence of unexplained phenomena is proof of the existence of I.D. is, frankly, frightening. It's the worst sort of anti-intellectualism, and in our poor country where "dumbing down" has apparently become a full-time profession of the religious right, this is a new low. Talk about hypocracy. Presenting I.D. as a valid "scientific" alternative to evolution is the height of hyprocracy and cynicism, as it contains not one ounce of science and is obviously religion thinly veiled. It's really sickening.

The worst of it is, I don't really care what religious beliefs people have or how they express them as long as they do not try to impose their religious beliefs on our government and its institutions by institutionalizing those beliefs in our government. Requiring a school district to teach I.D. along side evolution as though it were science is just such an intrusion. It is, at the very least, unconstitutional, and at most, quite dangerous. Dangerous because, left unchecked, it will succeed in inhibiting intellectual curiosity and stifling intellectual progress.

My greatest objection to these people's misguided and dangerous efforts is the blatant anti-intellectualism -- the notion that faith and intelligence cannot coexist, that intelligence must ultimately subjugate itself to faith and, if faith appears to contradict intelligence, then intelligence is given the old heave-ho. Oh yes, this is the way to progress! Progress back into another Dark Ages where we will have to, once again, recant that the earth is round and not the center of the universe. I won't let our society sink back into that "unevolved" slime willingly!

If Galileo had never been forced to recant, if science didn't have to live underground for centuries of our history, if pseudo-science had never been used to promote all manner of misdeeds and crimes against humankind, if Poh Pat had never killed 2.5 million Cambodians for being "intellectuals"...the list could go on...if none of these things had happened, I wouldn't worry quite so much. But I do worry. History does repeat itself.

G-d shows his presence every day. In other words - miracles, coincidences, luck...

AaronSF,
Good post! (don't agree with all of it but nicely done..)
One of the biggest problems science has is at the earliest points ...ie. from a soup of chemicals came "poof" life - even a single cell organism is tremendously complicated and requires numerous subsystems to all be functioning at the same time (multi-layer cell membrane, mitochondria etc. ) - some call it "lightening struck the junk yard and 747 emerged" problem...

the other big area is from the bacteria and/or single cell to the larger creature .... internal organs, all the hormonal, digestive, nervous systems, senses etc. etc. all come into being at the same time to produce a viable organism...

the more we know about life on a sub cellular or even atomic level its a wonder any of us are here to discuss it at all

in comparison to these problems the differentiation of species is not nearly as difficult and whether God or evolution I really don't care just nice to be here!!

IMHO

also most of the earlier scientists were religious and viewed science as a way to discover more about God's creation -- !!

Aaron!

BRAVO!

Let me get started...

Ok, the bible says: Hebrews 11:6 "But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him"

FIRST and SECOND question answered.

Peacful? Crime and evil doings would cease??:
Isaiah 14:12 "How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations! 13For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: 14I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High. 15Yet thou shalt be brought down to heck, to the sides of the pit"

Satan was probably the closest angel to God, He saw God, He knkew God, yet there was iniquity found in Him.

THIRD and FOURTH question answered.

Revelation 21:4,5 "And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away. And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new"

FIFTH question answered.

"the whole Jesus thing?"
I have heard others say this, I cannot understand it, read the bible, where did His wisdom, His love come from?

Oh, and the bible, how was the prophecy (and many more) of Daniel 2, 7, 8- correct? Predicting four world empires that were to rise: Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece, and Rome.

The 66 books of the Bible were written:
1. On three continents.
2. In three languages.
3. By about 40 different people (kings, shepherds, scientists, attorneys, an army general, fishermen, priests, and a physician).
4. Over a period of about 1,500 years.
5. On the most controversial subjects.
6. By people who, in most cases, had never met.
7. By authors whose education and background varied greatly.

Then why are they so in harmony with each other??

There is SO MUCH more evidence of biblical wisdom, I could go on and on......

-------------------------------------------------

Oh, and follow the link: http://www.explorationfilms.com/folders.asp?action=display&record=1
Very interesting evidence there.

Interesting Quote from the site: "There are changes going on in the evolutionary community because of the growing evidence for design," Dr. Martin exclaims, "and scientists are beginning to realize there's no way mindless chance processes could create an ordered, artistic, complex universe like we have--explosions don't create order. The problem is, once people start to talk about a designer, are they willing to name him?"


Question: Why is there a distinct battle between love and hate, why in every story, is there good and bad? Why does good always win?-
Because: "God is Love" 1 John 4:8 "I am the Almighty God" Gen 17:1.
Love is the strongest.

Anyway,
THAT felt good!

God bless All.

For those interested in the ongoing ID discussion, yesterday's Wall Street Journal (p. W11) had an article on the aftershock at the National Museum of History following the publication in its Proceedings of the Biological Society of Washington of what the author claimed was the "first peer-reviewed article to appear in a technical biology journal laying out the evidential case for Intelligent Design."

Umm - didn't someone else ask whether or not this thread belonged in the Coffee Room? Maybe yes?

"Umm - didn't someone else ask whether or not this thread belonged in the Coffee Room? Maybe yes?"

yes it does ... but some things just sprout where they will :rolleyes:

must be an early spring

music speaks for itself with or without God. i don't think we need either God/bible here in piano corner.

I agree totally, Signa, going back to the original topic. But this thread has taken on an off-topic, life of its own. If Frank wants to move this thread to the CR, I think that would be great. That's really where it belongs.

Yes, indeed, which is why I cannot understand how science and religion are incompatible and why historically humans keep coming back to this place of mistrusting science and thinking it somehow attacks religion. It is as though the atavistic, superstitious part of humans keeps rearing its ugly head. Ironic to me because all monotheistic religions claim to be opposed to superstition and open to enlightenment. I guess the superstitious part of humans just lives at a very primal level, and it is sometimes hard to mitigate it with either intelligence or enlightened faith.

And thanks, FS, for your great post above. I agree with you and am aware of those complexities of how it all began, down there on the pre-cellular level, the primordial soup. I don't know that we'll ever get it all figured out (what fun would that be!), but it is surely in our nature to try, our God-given nauture, if you will. Unexplained phenomena should be a spur to investigate, to delve deeper into the mystery and wonder of life. I do not believe it is a signpost from the Almighty to close the door on further inquiry.

there is without a doubt a "god" out there, whether it be what we humans think of as a master creator who thinks similarly to us and possessed infinite knowledge to create the universe or some kind of force far more complex then we can even comprehend. i dont believe that christianity is correct though ,despite going to a christian school and also the fact that my parents are constantly trying to prove me wrong. i think the bible could possibly be the divine word of god, but i also think that a lot of it was altered or misinterpreted due to the large amount of symbolism and what not that occurs throughout it.

This is a question that also affects me. Religion aside, and even with considering evolution, it is still amazing how humans and our world have turned out.

We function perfectly, and our world functions perfectly. If we were created like this already or if we evolved to this step it really does not matter, because we ended up here, regardless.

Now, is this proof of God? Well, look at how creative humans are, with technology, which often imitates the design of nature itself. (Birds, airplanes, etc.)

Perhaps it is not a Christian God, or a Jewish God, but I think that there has to be something there with intelligence. I fail to see how we can live in a world, where everything works so perfectly in its design, and it be made randomly. (even though humans choose to not act perfectly, our bodies function with practicality, and nature itself is amazing i its design). Our technology and art is made with intelligence and order in mind, which to me, reflects our outside world. It would make sense if there is a creative intelligence behind it all, I don't see any other way. If someone can tell me how this comes out of a random process, I'll be happy to listen. Even evolution is not random, but a design.

Those who quote the Bible as irrefutable proof of God's existence and who claim it is His "word" seem to me to forget who wrote the Bible, as we know it: fallible, impressionable human beings - albeit some were scholars of their time - whose lack of understanding of the forces of nature attributed everything they couldn't understand to inexplicable - hence, divine - forces.

Yet the same individuals would think it ludicrous to advocate accepting the Ancients' concept of the world as flat with the Mediterranean at its centre, or the Earth as a plate riding on the back of a tortoise or the theory that Earth is the centre of the Universe.

I'm getting thirsty; would anyone care to join me for coffee?

Regards,

This frustrates me more and more. How you equate not understanding evolution into not believing evolution is ludicrous. And yet you back each other up with the same poor arguments.

One of the fundamental, most basic, most important principles of information theory is that a code requires information. There has never been an example of a code, where this code was not programmed.

Yet, DNA, the helix shaped, compact, microscopic genius that forms the instructions for life is somehow immune to this very logical reasoning. Would you look at Beethoven's Moonlight Sonata and suggest that he'd simply thrown random paint on the canvas?? With all our amazing technology and intelligence, we can't even begin to form this masterpiece of DNA - and yet we are happy to believe that it somehow whipped itself into shape out of some primordial slime???

Yes, and what's even sadder is this is the same nation that spends billions on S.E.T.I. - who when observing a very simple 'pattern' of pulses from outer space, are inclined to believe that such a simple arguably random pattern definitely implies a greater intelligence.

Go figure on the warped logic there.

Intelligent design theory is backed up by the fact that living things show design.

If an unknown vehicle / machine were to turn up outside your door one morning and you had no real way of tracking the maker - would you assume it had just evolved, simply because the fact you couldn't understand how it could have evolved doesn't mean it hadn't. No, of course you don't.

Evolution is therefore every bit as much of a faith system as believing that there is design behind the living world. We can only ever observe microevolution (e.g. dogs to different dogs) so therefore no matter how much evidence we have it remains a faith system because we can never see it.

And the fact is, there is very little evidence for evolution.

Really question yourselves on fossils - you will find there are few and far between missing links - and even these are debatable. There are certainly not the countless amounts Darwin predicted.

Mutations - the mechanism for upwards evolution. Even some of the best professors are struggling with this as there is simply no evidence for a good mutation. There should be at least plenty.

This is just the tip - don't believe me then check it out yourself - find anything specific let me know.

I've spent a long time studying biology at degree level, the same as a car mechanic would study a car. And like the car mechanic I have concluded there is no way such creative and efficient design could have brought itself into existence on its own. Evolution requires so much more faith.

Thank you coffee, you summed up my thoughts and feelings perfectly.

Oops, that should say National Museum of Natural History in the post above.

Even if, black-coffee,for the sake of argument, I grant you most of your argument about the lack of a lot of evidence to support evolution, I don't see how that then points us toward I.D. In fact it begs the question. I understand how it might point to gaps in our knowledge, but it's a giant leap of faith from a theory that is backed by empirical data (however slight you think it is) to a theory supported by nothing other than your wish to believe that complex biological systems "prove" the existence of I.D. That's entirely backward logic and it's not scientific. A scientific theory requires supporting empirical evidence, not the absence of it. Positing an untestable explanation for phenomena you don't understand is unscientific. Calling it science does not make it so.

How is a theory that all life originated from a single common ancestor testable?? Have they tested it??

-my sincerest apologies if i haven't been here in a while. for some odd reason i keep getting 'suspended' every now and then for some odd reason.
-to pianojerome, i kinda thought that you Jews spelled God G-d, b/c you don't really worship him technically, but then i found out from a Christian program that culturally, that's how they spell God.
-anyway, to explain you question, the reason i believe that Jews don't really celebrate Xmas is b/c they rejected Christ when he was on the Earth preaching his message, but the Gentiles accepted it with open arms.
-but after God takes the Christians [saints] outta here into Heaven to protect them from the terrible tragedies [judgements] that lie ahead for the sinners and unbelievers, he then turns to the Jews in the Middle East, [not America] who haven't yet been exposed to the truth. the reason for this is that since the time of Jesus, the Gospels started in the Middle East and gradually moved westward until it moved to America, as it is now. then when the Tribulation Period [known as the Apocalypse] finally arrives, then it goes back East again after it leaves the West Coast.
-to Mr. Zac and Rockitman, i'm not trying to get you to believe in God or even prove his existence, but don't you think it's a little harsh to resent God b/c he isn't visible to the naked, human eye? you see God at work as the seasons change, when children are concieved [if you have any], when you hear a beautiful voice sing, when someone [duh!!!] has superb piano abilities, etc. i could go on and on. someone even said that you can't even take you next BREATH w/o God's help [or existance].
-not even in my most infinite imagination can i understand some things [that God are behind], and some things aren't meant to be understood, just accepted.
-scientists often hypothosize that the Earth- you might as well say- formed outta nothing. if there was such thing as 'The Big Bang', then who caused it? it had to have been SOMEONE. who made the Earth we're standing on? who put life in you when you were concieved? who moved the dinosaurs [and other really large, prehistoric species that can't coexist with humans] outta the way so that a way could be made for our existance?

Hey there, Miss Mouse -- I always enjoy reading Peter Kreeft! His "Christianity for Modern Pagans", an annotation of Pascal's Pensees is delightful. He's quite the raconteur, and a true gentleman in person.

Did you study at BC ("Barely Catholic" as Prof. Kreeft calls it)?