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#357135 - 03/16/02 01:08 AM Music and Math
jgoo Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/23/01
Posts: 3974
Loc: Seattle, Washington, USA
I've heard that playing musical instruments, such as the piano, gives the player a better understanding of math. I guess that you could say that was true for me, because I do extreamly well in the subject of math, and it wasn't until after I picked up the piano that I really excelled in the subject. But I want to know if that is really true for the rest of you. So, I guess what my question here is, do you believe that playing the piano has brought up your math skills? And, by the way, are there any scientific studies that have actually prooved this? I've also heard that just listening to about an hours worth of classical music a day helps raise your thinking skill. It was noticed first and to work best with the music of Mozart, and was called the Mozart effect. Weird, ah?
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#357136 - 03/16/02 01:46 AM Re: Music and Math
Mr. Gould Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/07/01
Posts: 1111
Hmmmmmmmmm yes well I do get 98 percent in math.... \:\) But I highly doubt it is because I can play the piano. Maybe the piano rules and everything exercise the brain, this might affect ur math skills barely..

About the thing that CLASSICAL MUSIC can make you smarter. Well, I am guessing that it relaxes our brain ( well it relaxes mine)
and this can cause the brain to focus more clearly, when I am stressed out I cant do anything properly!


If one has enough of water it makes the body and brain funtion 20 percent better! So I am presuming classical music KINDA acts the same way.

And ur quote ------ I dont think WW3 will wipe us back to the stone age. It will probably kill most of us, but a remaining portion of the world will survive!

Another thing on war, I heard that the terrorist were planning to nuke a big city in the USA.

If this does happen. WOW, it would be the worst thing. I also heard that bush thought about nuking Iraq.
If he does nuke iraq, HE IS ASKING FOR IT. Sadam will probably nuke the USA.

Well I am bored, I think I will go and play some Basket ball now. \:\)

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#357137 - 03/16/02 01:52 AM Re: Music and Math
jgoo Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/23/01
Posts: 3974
Loc: Seattle, Washington, USA
 Quote:
Originally posted by Classical Player:
Well, I am guessing that it relaxes our brain[/b]


It does for me, too. My mom says that she hates classical music becuase it frusterates her. She says that she tries to imagine that musician playing and can't. "How can they DO that?" she says. So, I guess that it can't be true for EVERYONE.

And, on my quote, we've already had a disscussion about it on another thread. And, we have a thread in the 9/11 forum about the possible use of nukes. If you want to disucuss more about the quote, maybe we should move it to the Coffee Room forum.
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#357138 - 03/16/02 02:37 AM Re: Music and Math
magnezium Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 722
Loc: Singapore

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#357139 - 03/16/02 06:56 AM Re: Music and Math
Praetorian_AD Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/24/01
Posts: 717
Loc: England
Yes, classical music has been known to soothe and focus the mind, or so I've read. Apparently this is especially true for baroque music, because the voices shifting up and down in parallel sequences and all that is very pleasing to our brains, or some such.

I've also read that people who play a musical instrument through their lives develop their minds at a much faster rate than those who do not, and that doing so helps to keep your mind in a 'youthful' condition, i.e. more receptive to info. Guess we should all pat ourselves on the back eh?

-Peter

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#357140 - 03/16/02 07:34 AM Re: Music and Math
ZeldaHanson Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/31/01
Posts: 276
Loc: Cape Cod, MA, USA
Has anyone here read Godel Escher Bach???? It has been deemed a necessary for all musicians. Jgoo, you should take the time to...It is mind boggling. It speaks of the strange loops and paradoxal sets of music, art and math. It compares how a Bach Invention is related to a math formula, or even a painting, and etc. I am only on the first chapter. But I love it already. I see now why the author won a pulitzer prize.

Zeldah
_________________________
Glenn Gould in regards to music:

The problem begins when one forgets the artificiality of it all, when one neglects to pay homage to those designations that to our minds-to our reflect senses, perhaps-make of music an analyzable commodity. The trouble begins when we start to become so impressed by the strategies of ours systematized thought that we forget that it does relate to an obverse, that it is hewn from negation, that it is but a very small security against the void of negation which surrounds it.

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#357141 - 03/16/02 07:37 AM Re: Music and Math
ZeldaHanson Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/31/01
Posts: 276
Loc: Cape Cod, MA, USA
I forgot to say that my signature quote is from the book. Look at the two sentences. Which one do you trust?

Zeldah
_________________________
Glenn Gould in regards to music:

The problem begins when one forgets the artificiality of it all, when one neglects to pay homage to those designations that to our minds-to our reflect senses, perhaps-make of music an analyzable commodity. The trouble begins when we start to become so impressed by the strategies of ours systematized thought that we forget that it does relate to an obverse, that it is hewn from negation, that it is but a very small security against the void of negation which surrounds it.

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#357142 - 03/16/02 08:30 AM Re: Music and Math
okat47 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/13/01
Posts: 193
Loc: Canada
Time to present the opposing view.
I hate math. I'm not really bad at it, but only because I memorize the the patterns and processes required to solve the problems-- I don't actually understand it. At the same time, I love classical music, especially Bach. I love playing fugues and other contrapuntal pieces, and I enjoy theory and harmonic analyisis. I know many people who do extremely well in maths and sciences who, to my knowledge, are more partial to rap and other pop music.
I think that we are to quick to make the generalization that being gifted in music results in mathematical success. I wonder if there are any studies about writing and language capabilities in musicians. After all, isn't music a form of communication?

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#357143 - 03/16/02 08:45 AM Re: Music and Math
T2 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/18/01
Posts: 341
I heard somewhere (I can't remember) that math and music are mapped into the same space in the brain. Hmmm...this presents a problem for me. Given that I'm great at calculus, diffe-Q and higher level math but struggle with arithematic, what does that say about my piano playing?

Please send your answer along with seven Piano World coffee mugs to:

Save the Absent-Minded Engineer Foundation
P.O. Box N(N-1)/2 [As N approaches infinity]
San Jose, CA 94112

And receive one of these fabulous prizes!

1. Several 20 year old college calculus texts, highlighted in 'nifty neon' yellow.
2. A memorial J.S. Bach rubber mask
3. W.A. Mozart piano workout suit
4. A box of S.O.S. steel wool pads and detailed instructions on how to permanently modify the appearence of your gloss black piano into, well, something that's not gloss black.

T2

P.S.: I took a page from Norbert's playbook and had several mathematicians lined up waiting for some free market research. Unfortunately they bailed on me early on leaving me only with the terse comment that the study design was flawed and the sample size is too small to produce statistically significant results. Hmmm...maybe I can open up a coffee mug shop.

[ March 17, 2002: Message edited by: T2 ]

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#357144 - 03/16/02 09:43 AM Re: Music and Math
magnezium Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 722
Loc: Singapore
hey! I'd really like a pianworld coffee mug... \:\)

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#357145 - 03/16/02 01:50 PM Re: Music and Math
mkesfahani Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/26/02
Posts: 836
Loc: Irvine, CA
I remember reading that the Mozart effect only works if you don't like classical music and only works with Mozart. The logic behind this is that Mozart's music is less dynamic and less "passionate" than say, Beethoven so while you're studying, it gets your mind to relax. Can't exactly study with Beethoven's 5th symphony or with Mozart (if you're a fan), now can you? It's too distracting.

Mike

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#357146 - 03/16/02 03:07 PM Re: Music and Math
Mr. Gould Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/07/01
Posts: 1111
The human brain is the most complicated thing in the known universe.. I don't think anyone is going to have a precise answer on how music affects us anytime soon! ;\)

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#357147 - 03/17/02 12:16 PM Re: Music and Math
SR Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/12/01
Posts: 718
Loc: Los Angeles
Playing piano has helped my mental quickness. It improves the speed at which the brain can process information.

Sight reading is quite an art. To be able to read two (or more) seperate staves each comprised of multiple notes and to do that a measure or two ahead of what your hands are doing is truely remarkable.

I have a group of Mozart fans and scholars I meet with bi monthly. Last night we were discussing that the Mozart effect really involves one Sonata for 2 pianos. The physicist who did this research claims that the patterns in this Sonata synchronize your brain waves, and the effect is temporary.

Trouble is none of us knew which Sonata it was. I'll be back and post when I find out.

Regards

Steve

[ March 17, 2002: Message edited by: SR ]
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#357148 - 03/18/02 08:15 AM Re: Music and Math
DT Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/01/01
Posts: 1478
Loc: Illinois
Studies have shown that those who get into music before age 5 do better in math at later ages but it's all been unproven hypothesis as to why.

Zelda, your quote is similar to something I posted a few weeks ago after explaining that another post was a joke that too many people took seriously.
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Through clever and constant application of propaganda, people can be made to see paradise as hell...

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#357149 - 03/18/02 08:29 AM Re: Music and Math
ZeldaHanson Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/31/01
Posts: 276
Loc: Cape Cod, MA, USA
 Quote:
Originally posted by DT:

Zelda, your quote is similar to something I posted a few weeks ago after explaining that another post was a joke that too many people took seriously.[/b]



The quote I got from Godel Escher Bach has nothing to do with jokes. What do you think its purpose is?

What was your post?

Zeldah
_________________________
Glenn Gould in regards to music:

The problem begins when one forgets the artificiality of it all, when one neglects to pay homage to those designations that to our minds-to our reflect senses, perhaps-make of music an analyzable commodity. The trouble begins when we start to become so impressed by the strategies of ours systematized thought that we forget that it does relate to an obverse, that it is hewn from negation, that it is but a very small security against the void of negation which surrounds it.

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#357150 - 03/18/02 09:54 AM Re: Music and Math
DT Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/01/01
Posts: 1478
Loc: Illinois
Don't believe anything I tell you, including this.

The logical paradox you read in GEB is not original to that author. The paradox only exists if one accepts the truth of both statements. Since the result would be impossible, at least one of the statements is false.
_________________________
Through clever and constant application of propaganda, people can be made to see paradise as hell...

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#357151 - 03/18/02 06:56 PM Re: Music and Math
jgoo Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/23/01
Posts: 3974
Loc: Seattle, Washington, USA
 Quote:
Originally posted by DT:
Don't believe anything I tell you, including this.

The logical paradox you read in GEB is not original to that author. The paradox only exists if one accepts the truth of both statements. Since the result would be impossible, at least one of the statements is false.[/b]


I pointed out this paradox on that thread in the other forum. I didn't word it this way, but I did point out that it was a paradox. Wasn't that in The King of the Hill thread that had like, a million posts on it. I forgot the exact number, it was somewhere in the mid hundreds. Anyway, I found that post ammusing.
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#357152 - 03/24/02 05:27 PM Re: Music and Math
Laura Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/05/01
Posts: 33
Loc: london
Hi,
Well I play the piano and am totally bad at maths - so it isn't true to everyone. It could be true to a lot of people though \:\)

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#357153 - 03/24/02 07:20 PM Re: Music and Math
pianoseed Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/13/01
Posts: 884
Loc: here
Just look at a piano keyboard and see the mathematical symetry. Read some of the works of Pythagorus on mathematical relationships and the "pleasantness" of harmonies. Also the relationships between identical strings of differenrt lengths or tensions. Multiply the vibrations per second of A440 by 2 and you get the octave above it. Multiply it by 1.5 and you get the fifth above. Multiply it by the twelfth root of 2 and you get the halfstep above it. Music is mathematics in its purest form. You appreciate the mathematical tonal relationships without knowing it. Dr Whites bookon piano tuning is also interesting. :rolleyes:
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pianoseed

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#357154 - 03/25/02 12:20 PM Re: Music and Math
Vid Online   content
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/12/01
Posts: 839
Loc: Vancouver, B.C.
If there really is a corollation I wish someone would share the secret because I'm failing integral calculus. \:\(
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Kawai VPC1, Pianoteq, Galaxy Vintage D

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#357155 - 03/25/02 01:36 PM Re: Music and Math
Rick Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/01/01
Posts: 559
Loc: Chicago
Vid,

If you are a student, I know you're very busy, but wow, do I have a book for you! It's called "Tour of the Calculus" by David Berlinski. For some odd reason, I felt compelled to buy this a few months ago. It is fantastic. First and foremost, he does an incredible job with all the fundamentals. Not just the calculus itself, but the irrational numbers, functions, limits, etc. What really tops it off is his gift for writing. Granted, it's not a textbook, but I sure never saw writing like that in engineering school. The last hundred pages or so tie the differential and integral calculus together in a way I never fully realized before. The real fundamental difference between the definite and indefinite integral - unbelievable! Look for my upcoming review of this book, soon to be on Amazon.com, if they'll have me. BTW, I got it in paperback for $14 (US).

Rick

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#357156 - 03/25/02 01:43 PM Re: Music and Math
JBryan Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/19/02
Posts: 9798
Loc: Oklahoma City
Rick,

Sounds like a good book. I remember my college calculus text book took a trip up against a wall precisely because of the opaque manner in which it was written. When I finally figured out what it was trying to say I ended up shouting "WHY DIDN'T YOU JUST SAY THAT IN THE FIRST PLACE". The book you are suggesting sounds like something that has been needed for a long time.
_________________________
Better to light one small candle than to curse the %&#$@#! darkness.

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#357157 - 03/25/02 02:29 PM Re: Music and Math
Vid Online   content
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/12/01
Posts: 839
Loc: Vancouver, B.C.
Thanks for the recommendation! It sounds like a good read. The thing is I actually like math, but the pace of this course is just too fast for me to absord everything. The textbook assumes you're already a math genius so its extremely difficult to get much out of it. I'm sure if you know that stuff already you can say 'a ha, that's how that works', but as it is I just end up being confused. At least this term will be over in a few weeks.
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Kawai VPC1, Pianoteq, Galaxy Vintage D

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#357158 - 03/25/02 04:28 PM Re: Music and Math
pianoseed Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/13/01
Posts: 884
Loc: here
The astronomer Kepler was looking for the Music of the Spheres believing that the planet orbits actually generated music. In the process he serendipidously discovered that the orbits were eleptical rather than circular. The Greeks included musical events as part of the olympics. That things that make you good at math are the same that make you good at music. Hard work and study.
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pianoseed

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