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#363678 - 09/05/05 08:30 AM Re: Proof that classical music is superior to every other genre
Ronel Augustyn Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/14/05
Posts: 527
Loc: Bloemfontein,SA
 Quote:
Originally posted by demosthenes:
In my opinion, Britney Spears is the greatest musician ever to walk the earth. [/b]
Does she ever just "walk" as you put it???
;\) :p
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#363679 - 09/05/05 11:05 AM Re: Proof that classical music is superior to every other genre
Herr_Gnome Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/06/05
Posts: 83
Loc: Houston, TX
Anyone who's taken a couple semesters of calculus knows that the most common number in nature is e. I say we make all our music based off that number since apparently, this is how one gets beauty. (silly me, I thought it had to do with good melodies, harmonies, clever use of form and motives etc. Boy do I feel dumb.)

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#363680 - 09/05/05 12:38 PM Re: Proof that classical music is superior to every other genre
Deus ex Pianoforte Offline
Full Member

Registered: 04/28/04
Posts: 346
Loc: California
 Quote:
Originally posted by Herr_Gnome:
Anyone who's taken a couple semesters of calculus knows that the most common number in nature is e. I say we make all our music based off that number since apparently, this is how one gets beauty. (silly me, I thought it had to do with good melodies, harmonies, clever use of form and motives etc. Boy do I feel dumb.) [/b]
No need to be sarcastic, I see where you're coming from. Those qualities you mention are definitely vital to a good piece of music. The problem is that those qualities can be found in pretty much every good piece of music for every genre. Classical's the only one that ups the ante by lacing the Golden Ratio into its DNA, hence its beauty. (The most common number may be e, but the most beautiful is Phi).

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#363681 - 09/05/05 01:15 PM Re: Proof that classical music is superior to every other genre
BDB Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/07/03
Posts: 21826
Loc: Oakland
Classical music does not have DNA; the Golden Ratio does not crop up anywhere in it; the assumption that it does comes from only one crudely devised example using a gross approximation; the assumption that other music does not is stated without examination, let alone proof; the Golden Ratio is only part of one now-declined culture's "standard" of beauty, and only for visual beauty at that.

The most common number in nature is zero, followed by one. If you restrict yourself to the irrational numbers, after square and other roots comes ? (pi) as the most common.
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#363682 - 09/05/05 01:33 PM Re: Proof that classical music is superior to every other genre
Deus ex Pianoforte Offline
Full Member

Registered: 04/28/04
Posts: 346
Loc: California
 Quote:
Originally posted by BDB:
Classical music does not have DNA; the Golden Ratio does not crop up anywhere in it; the assumption that it does comes from only one crudely devised example using a gross approximation; the assumption that other music does not is stated without examination, let alone proof; the Golden Ratio is only part of one now-declined culture's "standard" of beauty, and only for visual beauty at that.[/b]
Tell you what, we'll have a contest. I'll come up with as many books, magazine articles, and scientific journals citing the appearance of the Golden Ratio in classical music's DNA (that's a metaphor by the way) and you do the same for every other genre. We'll see who comes out on top.

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#363683 - 09/05/05 01:47 PM Re: Proof that classical music is superior to every other genre
BDB Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/07/03
Posts: 21826
Loc: Oakland
I have a better idea. Come up with one article that explains how the exact Golden Ratio could appear in any way in any music. No approximations, it has to be the exact ratio. You can even write one yourself.
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#363684 - 09/05/05 02:37 PM Re: Proof that classical music is superior to every other genre
Deus ex Pianoforte Offline
Full Member

Registered: 04/28/04
Posts: 346
Loc: California
I outlined a great example in my first post. I suppose I could do some google work and fill up 10 pages worth of links backing me up, but I don't think Frank would appreciate that too much. ;\)

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#363685 - 09/05/05 02:47 PM Re: Proof that classical music is superior to every other genre
BDB Offline
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Registered: 06/07/03
Posts: 21826
Loc: Oakland
No, you didn't. I said "No approximations." It has to be exact. Not even to 10,000 decimal places. Exact.

Just explain it. One explanation, not a page of google search results. It's math. If it's there, it should be easy to explain.

Many years ago, someone around here wrote about a pile of crutches near a religious shrine, and said someone had written a sign and placed it nearby: "One artificial leg would be sufficient." The same principle goes here.
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#363686 - 09/05/05 03:16 PM Re: Proof that classical music is superior to every other genre
Deus ex Pianoforte Offline
Full Member

Registered: 04/28/04
Posts: 346
Loc: California
 Quote:
Originally posted by BDB:
No, you didn't. I said "No approximations." It has to be exact. Not even to 10,000 decimal places. Exact.

Just explain it. One explanation, not a page of google search results. It's math. If it's there, it should be easy to explain.[/b]
Why does it have to be exact? Jenny McCarthy's face doesn't fit the Golden Ratio exactly. That doesn't mean she isn't absolutely hot, it just means she isn't mathematically perfect looking. Same thing with music. Mozart's first sonata isn't PERFECT, it's just extremely beautiful. And I'm not sure what you mean about math being easy to explain...but there's a reason people spend years studying calculus.

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#363687 - 09/05/05 04:06 PM Re: Proof that classical music is superior to every other genre
Herr_Gnome Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/06/05
Posts: 83
Loc: Houston, TX
I know how we can solve this. You can list the most beautiful pieces which are based off the Golden Ratio(which is a visual thing, not an aural idea.) The rest of us can then show you there are pieces just as beautiful without it.

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#363688 - 09/05/05 04:25 PM Re: Proof that classical music is superior to every other genre
snap_apple Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/21/03
Posts: 710
 Quote:
Originally posted by Deus ex Pianoforte:


2. Yes, people are entitled to their own opinions. However, we are discussing facts. Facts, by definition, are correct. Now, you can dispute that the sky is blue. But you can't disagree with its color. Know why? Cause it's a fact.


[/b]
We are NOT discussing facts...we are discussing inferences, it is key to know the difference.

Your divine ratio theory about music is NOT a fact. A fact is something that be verified as true or false...they are not open to argument.

for example "it is raining outside" is a statement of fact. If it is actually raining outside, somebody can go outside and verify for a fact that it is raining.

The sky is blue is a fact, somebody can look outside and verify that the sky is blue.
----

Now an inference is an opinion that goes beyond what was actually observed. For example

FACT:[/b] the population of the Springfield metropolitan area recorded in the 2000 census was 325,721.

INFERENCE:[/b] Springfield is growing rapidly

FACT:[/b] On August 9, 2002 Judy Smith lived with 2 dogs

INFERENCE:[/b] Judy Smith likes Dogs

See the difference. One is indisputable and the other is not...is it a fact Judy likes dogs?...no, maybe she was babysitting for some dogs for a friend and really hates them. Maybe she just got some dogs and is realizing she doesn't like them too much we don't know...we are infering she likes them.

-----

Now, about the divine ratio theory. I don't know much at all about it, I can only trust the numbers you came up with are true and verifiable. Say they are...and most these things...including Mozart and Beethoven come closer to the divine ratio theory, it does not make their superiority in beauty a fact.

Assuming your correct with your numbers and they are verifiable...

FACT:[/b] Classical music is closer to the divine ratio theory then other types of music.

INFERENCE[/b] Classical music is therefore more beautiful then other types of music.


It is an INFERENCE to conclude that therefore the music is more beautiful, why? because it goes beyond the fact, it is not black and white, if it were we would not be having this discussion.

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#363689 - 09/05/05 04:31 PM Re: Proof that classical music is superior to every other genre
Deus ex Pianoforte Offline
Full Member

Registered: 04/28/04
Posts: 346
Loc: California
 Quote:
Originally posted by Herr_Gnome:
...the Golden Ratio(which is a visual thing, not an aural idea.)[/b]
The ratio of female bees to male bees in a hive (a.k.a. the Divine Proportion) isn't purely a visual phenomenon, as the bees don't balance the hive based on sight. The only way to solve this is to agree to disagree, apparently.

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#363690 - 09/05/05 04:47 PM Re: Proof that classical music is superior to every other genre
Deus ex Pianoforte Offline
Full Member

Registered: 04/28/04
Posts: 346
Loc: California
 Quote:
Originally posted by snap_apple:

Your divine ratio theory about music is NOT a fact. A fact is something that be verified as true or false...they are not open to argument.

Assuming your correct. Then it is a FACT that classical music is closer to the divine ratio theory, that would be indisputable if the numbers work out.

However...it is an INFERENCE to conclude that therefore the music is more beautiful.

Why? because it goes beyond the fact, it is not black and white, if it were we would not be having this discussion. [/b]
Well, there are disputed facts and then there are undisputed facts. It is a fact that humans evolved from apes over millions of years, but there will be plenty of people who will tell you that God created the Universe in 7 days 5,000 years ago. So evolution is a disputed fact. By the same token, it is a fact that the measures of the first movement of Mozart's first sonata perfectly fits Phi when you compare the defined sections. 62/38 = Phi. Fact. Our definition of facial beauty is determined by Phi. Fact. Our measurement of beauty = Mozart's first sonata, first movement structure. Fact. And all three of those facts have been vehemently disputed by pretty much everyone who has contributed to this thread, and all of which I will defend with equal intensity...Fact. :p

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#363691 - 09/05/05 05:07 PM Re: Proof that classical music is superior to every other genre
BDB Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/07/03
Posts: 21826
Loc: Oakland
 Quote:
62/38 = Phi.
No, it doesn't. Fact. You know what else? 62 and 38 are not Fibonacci numbers. Fact. Anyone who thinks otherwise is a bonacci.
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#363692 - 09/05/05 05:38 PM Re: Proof that classical music is superior to every other genre
Deus ex Pianoforte Offline
Full Member

Registered: 04/28/04
Posts: 346
Loc: California
Oh you want to take it personal now, eh? We could do that. But I'd rather just take care of your argument really quick, here. In a 100 measure movement, you can't get a closer division to Phi than 62 and 38. Kind of like how you can't get a closer rational number division to Pi than 22 and 7. And yes, I know 62 and 38 are not Fibonacci numbers. However, the Divine Proportion exists anyway. The original sequence is merely a means to an end.

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#363693 - 09/05/05 05:52 PM Re: Proof that classical music is superior to every other genre
BDB Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/07/03
Posts: 21826
Loc: Oakland
 Quote:
Kind of like how you can't get a closer rational number division to Pi than 22 and 7.
I can. If you can't, you should go back and take high school math.
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#363694 - 09/05/05 07:29 PM Re: Proof that classical music is superior to every other genre
Deus ex Pianoforte Offline
Full Member

Registered: 04/28/04
Posts: 346
Loc: California
Wow, you are THICK. I stated before that in a ONE HUNDRED MEASURE movement, it is IMPOSSIBLE to attain a closer division of measures to Phi than 62 and 38. Now if you can do the same thing for Pi with numbers 100 and below, do it. I await anxiously. OR, you can end this pi**ing contest right now by agreeing to disagree, like I suggested it earlier. It boils down to one truth: I believe that I have proved that Mozart's music is beautiful, you believe that I haven't. That's all there is to it. I won't try to convince you otherwise, and you for damn sure won't convince me.

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#363695 - 09/05/05 08:00 PM Re: Proof that classical music is superior to every other genre
BDB Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/07/03
Posts: 21826
Loc: Oakland
So you believe that if anybody writes 100 bars of music and divides it into a section 62 bars long and another section 38 bars long it is necessarily beautiful, no matter what the notes are in the bars? All you have proved to me that you don't know much about math, English, logic, statistics, or esthetics, among other things.
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#363696 - 09/05/05 08:25 PM Re: Proof that classical music is superior to every other genre
Deus ex Pianoforte Offline
Full Member

Registered: 04/28/04
Posts: 346
Loc: California
Great, then there's nothing more to say. Good talkin' to ya!

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#363697 - 09/05/05 08:26 PM Re: Proof that classical music is superior to every other genre
derekrs Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/06/05
Posts: 115
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
Are you saying that there is no evidence that can convince you that you have not proved Mozart's sonatas (since the study only looked at sonatas) are beautiful due to the occurance of the Golden ratio? This is of course assuming you are incorrect. You may very well be correct, but I don't think the evidence you presented is enough.

I'm going say that I do not believe you have proved your theory at least beyond a reasonable doubt, so i'll take what i think should be the default postition being skepticism or disbelief. I think what you have is more evidence or support, and if combined with other evidence, may be enough to have proof.

You should at least be open to the possibility that you are wrong. Any good scientist trying to prove a theory should be open to that possibility and not dismiss any evidence that they don't like. Science comes up with an explaination of some facts, and with evidence believes the explaination to be correct, but when new evidence comes, or the current evidence is proved to be invalid, science is willing to change its position.

The fact that you are not convinced by what some people have been posting, i can understand. I don't think that it was convincing either since it seemed like it was just ideas rather than actual evidence. I think this casts doubt, which is why i disagree with your position, because there are other possible explainations. These can be tested and proved either correct (which helps to disprove your theory), or incorrect (which adds support to your theory).

On another note, someone mentioned that humans evolved from apes using it as an example of evolution being a disputed fact. I will not get into an argument or debate over evolution. However, evolution says that humans and apes evolved from a common ancestor, not that humans evolved from the present day ape. This seems to be a common misconception. Ape-like perhaps, but certainly not from what we now consider an ape.

pi~355/113~3.14159292 to prove to BDB that i took high school math and beyond. Mind you i just use the pi button on the calculator. Much easier.
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#363698 - 09/05/05 08:31 PM Re: Proof that classical music is superior to every other genre
Deus ex Pianoforte Offline
Full Member

Registered: 04/28/04
Posts: 346
Loc: California
Actually, I just meant that BDB was never going to convince me as by his previous arguments showed me that he doesn't have what it takes. I may be able to be swayed by someone who presents valid arguments and shows me considerable evidence that beauty is not defined by Phi, however.

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#363699 - 09/05/05 08:33 PM Re: Proof that classical music is superior to every other genre
derekrs Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/06/05
Posts: 115
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
 Quote:
Originally posted by BDB:
So you believe that if anybody writes 100 bars of music and divides it into a section 62 bars long and another section 38 bars long it is necessarily beautiful, no matter what the notes are in the bars? All you have proved to me that you don't know much about math, English, logic, statistics, or esthetics, among other things. [/b]
In his defence:

His math seems fine, as does his English. I could understand what he wrote. Logic may be a bit off, but that doesn't change the evidence. Statistics could be improved though...i'll give you that. I won't comment on esthetics since that seems too subjective.

As for your coment of having random notes in the 100 bars, i think it is reasonable to assume that his theory was to be applied to music and not a collection of random noise. This leads to another debate of when noise becomes music, but that is another story.
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#363700 - 09/05/05 08:40 PM Re: Proof that classical music is superior to every other genre
derekrs Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/06/05
Posts: 115
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
 Quote:
Originally posted by Deus ex Pianoforte:
Actually, I just meant that BDB was never going to convince me as by his previous arguments showed me that he doesn't have what it takes. I may be able to be swayed by someone who presents valid arguments and shows me considerable evidence that beauty is not defined by Phi, however. [/b]
Yay...! \:\)
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#363701 - 09/05/05 08:51 PM Re: Proof that classical music is superior to every other genre
BDB Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/07/03
Posts: 21826
Loc: Oakland
I said music, not random noise. Given that you have taken it upon yourself to be a judge of logic and English usage, why do you assume things that he has not said, and not accept things that I explicitly said?
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#363702 - 09/05/05 09:13 PM Re: Proof that classical music is superior to every other genre
boomerpizza Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/08/04
Posts: 126
Loc: pennsylvania
How can a face fit a ratio???
Maybe there are 1.61803399 pimples for every freckle...
I think that's as far as I'll go.
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#363703 - 09/05/05 09:16 PM Re: Proof that classical music is superior to every other genre
derekrs Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/06/05
Posts: 115
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
 Quote:
Originally posted by BDB:
I said music, not random noise. Given that you have taken it upon yourself to be a judge of logic and English usage, why do you assume things that he has not said, and not accept things that I explicitly said? [/b]
1. Yes, you said music, but you also said, "...no matter what the notes are in the bars." Since it didn't matter what the notes were i think i can put in random notes and still meet your criteria.

2. I simply made an opinion that disagreed wtih yours. You also made some comments on his english, etc.

3. I think my assumption is fairly reasonable.
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#363704 - 09/05/05 09:19 PM Re: Proof that classical music is superior to every other genre
derekrs Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/06/05
Posts: 115
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
 Quote:
Originally posted by boomerpizza:
How can a face fit a ratio???
Maybe there are 1.61803399 pimples for every freckle...
I think that's as far as I'll go. [/b]
That could be a lot of pimples for some people i know. :-)
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#363705 - 09/05/05 09:32 PM Re: Proof that classical music is superior to every other genre
Deus ex Pianoforte Offline
Full Member

Registered: 04/28/04
Posts: 346
Loc: California
This article answers your question quite nicely, bommerpizza.

http://www.medhunters.com/articles/geometryOfHumanAnatomy.html

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#363706 - 09/05/05 09:42 PM Re: Proof that classical music is superior to every other genre
BDB Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/07/03
Posts: 21826
Loc: Oakland
So you assumed that he meant to choose numerals between 1 and 100, even though he he didn't say so, and you assumed that I meant random notes which are not musical, even though I said it was not. To me, that shows bias.

Well, as fascinating as this exercise in folly has been, I have other things to do. It's always fun to see people use science to make fools of themselves, but it's time to move on.
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#363707 - 09/05/05 09:55 PM Re: Proof that classical music is superior to every other genre
snap_apple Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/21/03
Posts: 710
 Quote:
Originally posted by Deus ex Pianoforte:
Well, there are disputed facts and then there are undisputed facts. It is a fact that humans evolved from apes over millions of years, but there will be plenty of people who will tell you that God created the Universe in 7 days 5,000 years ago. So evolution is a disputed fact.
[/b]


No...there are no disputed facts, a fact is a verifiable observed event; a descriptive statement which is true.

Evolution is not a fact, it is a theory or a conclusion which stems from a number of verifiable facts. The facts are what back up the theory, the theory goes beyond the fact.

 Quote:
By the same token, it is a fact that the measures of the first movement of Mozart's first sonata perfectly fits Phi when you compare the defined sections. 62/38 = Phi. Fact.
[/b]

That would be a fact.

 Quote:
Our definition of facial beauty is determined by Phi. Fact.
[/b]

That is not a fact. My definition of facial beauty is not determined by Phi. Therefore the "Our" part of your sentence is not true. People dispute over what is attractive and what is attractive changes over time. Ever look at your parents year book...notice the change in style and taste and opinion on what is beautiful. Figure, skin color, facial features, etc, the taste in all of those change over time and through out culture.

What is beautiful in one culture is found absolutey repulsive in another.

True story: Leonardo DiCaprio and Gisele Bundchen (both considerd extremely beautiful) were vacationing deep in South America recently. Leo's an enviornmental freak and they were doing research deep in the rainforest away from anything remotely developed. They stayed with a tribe and it was reported that they actually found the two ugly, freakish, and strange. And trust me, these native South Americans would not be considered attractive by American tastes.

So you see it really boils down to taste, which is typically defined by time and the culture. Similar to music and what is considered good.


 Quote:

Our measurement of beauty = Mozart's first sonata, first movement structure. Fact.
[/b]

That isn't a fact...it doesn't make sense. Are you stating that we are defining beauty by it's structure? I'm not. It's not my definition therefore the "Our" in your statement is false. I believe, like with facial beauty, that there is much more to attraction then proportion. Facial features, skin tone, facial expressions...and that's just physical. The deeper meaning of beauty, the real meaning, lies beneath the skin, beneath the proportion..Just like in music.


 Quote:

And all three of those facts have been vehemently disputed by pretty much everyone who has contributed to this thread, and all of which I will defend with equal intensity...Fact. :p
[/b]

Only one was a fact the rest are you opinions based off that fact. The only fact was that the measures of the first movement of Mozart's first sonata perfectly fits Phi when you compare the defined sections. 62/38 = Phi. Everything else you have said is an opinion you came to from that one fact.

We are trying to tell you that the Divine Ratio theory is nice and all, but it does not prove beauty.

And good luck trying to convince somebody based on math and logic that something is beautiful because is beauty is far more complicated and far too personal to be universally proven. That mystery and unprovability is what makes it so magical.

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