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#363708 - 09/06/05 12:18 AM Re: Proof that classical music is superior to every other genre
Deus ex Pianoforte Offline
Full Member

Registered: 04/28/04
Posts: 346
Loc: California
 Quote:
Originally posted by snap_apple:
That is not a fact. My definition of facial beauty is not determined by Phi. Therefore the "Our" part of your sentence is not true. People dispute over what is attractive and what is attractive changes over time.

Figure, skin color, facial features, etc, the taste in all of those change over time and through out culture.

What is beautiful in one culture is found absolutey repulsive in another.

Are you stating that we are defining beauty by it's structure? I'm not. It's not my definition therefore the "Our" in your statement is false. I believe, like with facial beauty, that there is much more to attraction then proportion. Facial features, skin tone, facial expressions...and that's just physical. The deeper meaning of beauty, the real meaning, lies beneath the skin, beneath the proportion..Just like in music.

And good luck trying to convince somebody based on math and logic that something is beautiful because is beauty is far more complicated and far too personal to be universally proven. That mystery and unprovability is what makes it so magical. [/b]
When I say "our", I mean Americans. Yes, there are many factors to OVERALL beauty, but as far as facial features go there's only one. I think we all know what that one is by now. ;\) And yes, not all cultures have the same definitions of beauty. You go to a remote village in South America that is completely out of touch with the world, unaware of any current events and you may find a few villagers that think a model is ugly. But there's a reason those two have been on the cover of every publication in the civilized world.

I believe one of my main obstacles in trying to persuade others of my stance on this is that everyone wants to believe that human beings are much more complicated than they actually are. You want to believe that you are attracted to someone because they "stir something deep in your soul", or "connect with you on a spiritual level". But really when you put ego aside, humans are just like any other animal. Men are attracted to women with curvaceous hips because it signifies the ability to bear children. We're attracted to long hair because it signifies a healthy specimen. Large breasts for the ability to care for our young. Women are attracted to men with big muscles and broad shoulders because it demonstrates the ability to protect her and their offspring. I'm speaking generally now, you'll always find that anomaly of women that are turned out by scrawny bald men with high voices, and men that like bald 400-pound women. But it's all biological when you get right down to brass tacks. Again, we're talking PHYSICAL beauty now. Physical beauty is to sonata structure as inner beauty is to compelling melodies and captivating rhythms.

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#363709 - 09/06/05 12:20 AM Re: Proof that classical music is superior to every other genre
Deus ex Pianoforte Offline
Full Member

Registered: 04/28/04
Posts: 346
Loc: California
How hilarious is this: When I finished writing my last post, the new FOX show "Prison Break" came on, and I hear this guy yell, "Tell me where I can find Fibonacci." He's a regular on the show I guess, heh.

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#363710 - 09/06/05 12:29 AM Re: Proof that classical music is superior to every other genre
virtuoso418 Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/29/03
Posts: 645
 Quote:
True story: Leonardo DiCaprio and Gisele Bundchen (both considerd extremely beautiful) were vacationing deep in South America recently. Leo's an enviornmental freak and they were doing research deep in the rainforest away from anything remotely developed. They stayed with a tribe and it was reported that they actually found the two ugly, freakish, and strange. And trust me, these native South Americans would not be considered attractive by American tastes
From the perspective of a closed society, anything that differs within their culture projects scorn or negative feedback. Earlier tribes rejected other tribe's rituals and vice versa. But does that mean that one is right and one is wrong? The justification of a tribe and its opinion doesnt account for the subjectivity of beauty. It also certainly does not exemplify humanity's instinct of beauty either. The example of the tribe is too narrow. The fact that these tribal people see those movie stars in a ugly or strange way doesn't mean they aren't beautiful and, it doesnt mean that they are.

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#363711 - 09/06/05 12:31 AM Re: Proof that classical music is superior to every other genre
virtuoso418 Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/29/03
Posts: 645
Wow, it just finished nearly two and a half hrs ago over here. Anways, enjoy the show im heading to bed.

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#363712 - 09/06/05 02:21 AM Re: Proof that classical music is superior to every other genre
Derulux Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/06/05
Posts: 5321
Loc: Philadelphia
 Quote:
On another note, someone mentioned that humans evolved from apes using it as an example of evolution being a disputed fact.
It was Mr. Pianoforte himself. Of course, he also considers this a fact:

 Quote:
I do not feel I need to prove my home state to someone who claims to have memorized the 3rd movement of the "Moonlight" sonata in four days without a piano.
...which of course, it is not.

 Quote:
When I decided to post my findings with such a controversial subject headline, I knew I would face public outcry and dissent.
And yet, with all that time to consider your retorts, you have failed to accurately and/or maturely address most of the retorts in the forum. (And then you resort to berating the forum member with an opposing viewpoint...)

 Quote:
i think it is reasonable to assume that his theory was to be applied to music and not a collection of random noise.
This may be true, derekrs, but you must remember that once we walk down that path, we fall to presumption, and opinion. If you say that Mr. Pianoforte's theory is only true when you regard music, and not a perfectly assembled collection of noise, what you are doing is saying that "the beautiful object is beautiful because it is already beautiful". We must avoid this sort of trouble. If the contention is that a 100 bar phrase, perfectly broken to fit the "Divine Ratio", is beautiful, then we must purposely allow any and every random combination of notes in that phrase. ;\)

 Quote:
To me, that shows bias.
There is bias latent throughout this entire discussion. That is the trouble with scientific arguments among artists...and many seem to take it personally when you point out evidence of bias. There are many scientists in this forum, from what I've gathered, but it seems many have chosen to stay out of this thread. I think I'm beginning to see why. ;\)

 Quote:
People dispute over what is attractive and what is attractive changes over time. Ever look at your parents year book...
Forget the yearbook...take a look at sculptures of mythological goddesses back in "BC" era. (You can observe this particularly well among the Arabian and Eastern religions.) Notice what "beautiful" was back then? I daresay, most definitely not "beautiful" by today's standards. Then look at Renaissance art...those women would NEVER get a Playboy centerfold, let alone a modeling contract. The only conformity may be men, whose chiseled features have always been desired, it would seem. (However, the "body hair" dispute remains...)

 Quote:
The deeper meaning of beauty, the real meaning, lies beneath the skin, beneath the proportion..
This is my standard as well...whether or not the inner qualities shine through a person, and whether or not those inner qualities are inherently desirable (to me).

 Quote:
Everything else you have said is an opinion you came to from that one fact.
Yes, I've already tried explaining this to him as well. He does not seem particularly interested in listening to reason, though.

 Quote:
When I say "our", I mean Americans.
*points to self* American. Now, "our" is still a false statement.

 Quote:
Yes, there are many factors to OVERALL beauty, but as far as facial features go there's only one. I think we all know what that one is by now.
If it is only one, it is one that has yet to be stated, because factually-speaking, the "Golden Ratio" theory cannot be singular or unanimous, as evidenced by more than one other poster.

 Quote:
You go to a remote village in South America that is completely out of touch with the world, unaware of any current events and you may find a few villagers that think a model is ugly. But there's a reason those two have been on the cover of every publication in the civilized world.
A few? Try the whole village.... And the answer to why she is on the cover of every magazine is because that is what the mass media tells society is beatiful. "Sex sells" is a marketing mantra that runs the current advertising world. Sex doesn't necessarily have anything to do with beauty. Beauty doesn't necessarily have anything to do with mass media-produced images.

 Quote:
I believe one of my main obstacles in trying to persuade others of my stance on this is that everyone wants to believe that human beings are much more complicated than they actually are.
No, your main obstacle has been your failure to understand the definition of a "fact", and your continued presentation of your personal opinion as a fact. I am not the only person who has said this. I think nearly every other poster has said this. Apparently, it hasn't sunk in yet.

I think we're all very interested in what you have to say, but your lack of facts, and your continued use of opinion instead, is really destroying any scientific argument you may want to create for your position. I'm more than willing to listen to facts, but, as snap_apple has said, you have only presented one: the ratio of Mozart's sonata and its close approximation to the "Golden Ratio".

 Quote:
But it's all biological when you get right down to brass tacks.
Ever hear of the "Bio-Psycho-Social" model? "It" is NEVER about just one of the three.
_________________________
Every day we are afforded a new chance. The problem with life is not that you run out of chances. In the end, what you run out of are days.

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#363713 - 09/06/05 04:10 AM Re: Proof that classical music is superior to every other genre
Deus ex Pianoforte Offline
Full Member

Registered: 04/28/04
Posts: 346
Loc: California
Dude, I'm not gonna do the whole itemized list of comebacks with you anymore. However, if anybody else has anything else they'd like to contribue they're more than welcome. Now...pretty please, with a cherry on top, take a hike while I patiently await the ignore function?

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#363714 - 09/06/05 04:21 AM Re: Proof that classical music is superior to every other genre
Derulux Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/06/05
Posts: 5321
Loc: Philadelphia
Half of them don't speak to you, so relax...or actually read the ones that do, and think of a well-educated response (instead of the typical "ignore function" propaganda). ;\)
_________________________
Every day we are afforded a new chance. The problem with life is not that you run out of chances. In the end, what you run out of are days.

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#363715 - 09/06/05 07:35 AM Re: Proof that classical music is superior to every other genre
-Frycek Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/06/05
Posts: 5921
Loc: SC Mountains
"There is no excellent beauty that hath not some strangeness in the proportion."
Francis Bacon
_________________________
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#363716 - 09/06/05 12:56 PM Re: Proof that classical music is superior to every other genre
Deus ex Pianoforte Offline
Full Member

Registered: 04/28/04
Posts: 346
Loc: California
 Quote:
Originally posted by Derulux:
(instead of the typical "ignore function" propaganda)[/b]
Propaganda...heh, you got issues. No, really. I don't mind continuing this discussion, but your constant interruptions are making it difficult for me to focus on legitimate points. In addition to defending the classical music issue, I have to constantly babysit you to make sure you stay in line. Be the bigger man - say no more, and walk away.

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#363717 - 09/06/05 01:35 PM Re: Proof that classical music is superior to every other genre
vapour Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 04/23/05
Posts: 3
Loc: Berkshire, UK
 Quote:
Untrue, which brings me to another appearance of Phi. The ratio of your height to fingertip to fingertip (when arms are spread) plays a role in your attractiveness. How? The closer it is to the Divine Proportion.
That is completely wrong. Anyone with arms even 100mm shorter or longer would look quite unattractive. Now keep in mind that almost eveyone's height is virtually the same as their arm span.

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#363718 - 09/06/05 01:52 PM Re: Proof that classical music is superior to every other genre
Lacquer Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/29/04
Posts: 80
Loc: Banned
The golden ratio plays some role in aesthetics, for sure, but to think it's the be-all and end-all is utterly ridiculous.

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#363719 - 09/06/05 02:05 PM Re: Proof that classical music is superior to every other genre
Derulux Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/06/05
Posts: 5321
Loc: Philadelphia
 Quote:
No, really. I don't mind continuing this discussion, but your constant interruptions are making it difficult for me to focus on legitimate points.
Therein lies your problem. My points are both legitimate and happen to agree with nearly everything else that has been said in the three pages of this discussion. Countering my points, instead of attacking me, would be a good "first base". Right now, you're 0-2. ;\)

 Quote:
Be the bigger man
I'll openly admit I'm probably not the biggest man here, but with comments like "I have to constantly babysit you", among others (of yours), it's not too difficult to succeed here. ;\)
_________________________
Every day we are afforded a new chance. The problem with life is not that you run out of chances. In the end, what you run out of are days.

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#363720 - 09/06/05 02:06 PM Re: Proof that classical music is superior to every other genre
pianistcomposer Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/12/05
Posts: 312
Loc: Baltimore, MD, USA
 Quote:
Originally posted by Frycek:
"There is no excellent beauty that hath not some strangeness in the proportion."
Francis Bacon [/b]
Yeah, I'll bet Bacon was a choice piece of a**.

\:D

Seriously...what is this pervasive need to "define" beauty going on in this thread? Isn't it enough that it exists, and that we all move by attraction, no matter how we try to qualify or quantify that attraction in its details? It's not like you'll be able to change it or gain some kind of control over it, anyway, no matter how many "scientific arguments" you use to prop up this or that assertion. Yeah, phi, very interesting, great. But only to a point. Again, it's not like understanding phi will change who or what you're attracted to; what it *may* wind up doing, if you're not careful, is allowing you to abstract yourself from real relationship with the person (or sonata, or whatever it is you're attracted to), to put a barrier or lens up between you, creating just that degree of distance and, therefore, lack of participation. Really, when you get right down to it, it amounts to mental masturbation rather than real involvement with something. What was your motivation to bring it up to begin with, anyway? That's what interests me.
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"Some people have a way with words; others... ... ... ...not...have way, I guess."
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#363721 - 09/06/05 02:17 PM Re: Proof that classical music is superior to every other genre
Deus ex Pianoforte Offline
Full Member

Registered: 04/28/04
Posts: 346
Loc: California
 Quote:
Originally posted by pianistcomposer:
What was your motivation to bring it up to begin with, anyway? That's what interests me. [/b]
My motivation mainly stemmed from a conversation I had a few weeks ago with a coworker. He was playing a rap song that he wrote for me, and telling me how drugged up he was when he recorded it. I expressed that it turned out fairly well, and then asked what he was on. He said he had a few beers, smoked a blunt, and took a pill of ecstacy beforehand. I sort of laughed, and then he asked me if I ever played the piano stoned. I told him that it affects technique too much, and he didn't understand. I explained to him the science of neural stimuli and the link between motor skills and impairment from substances. He then tried to explain to me that rapping and playing the piano were of the same vein, and I should be able to play the piano under the influence as well as he was able to rap. I defended my position the best I could, but didn't have a real defined answer how the art of pianism is infinitely more complex and refined than the art of rap. Well, now I do. Plus I just like dispelling the myth that humans are beautiful and unique snowflakes. ;\)

Derelux, you're absolutely right! I hadn't looked it THAT way before.

vapour, take a look at this:
http://www.medhunters.com/articles/geometryOfHumanAnatomy.html

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#363722 - 09/06/05 02:33 PM Re: Proof that classical music is superior to every other genre
Derulux Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/06/05
Posts: 5321
Loc: Philadelphia
 Quote:
I sort of laughed, and then he asked me if I ever played the piano stoned. I told him that it affects technique too much, and he didn't understand. I explained to him the science of neural stimuli and the link between motor skills and impairment from substances. He then tried to explain to me that rapping and playing the piano were of the same vein, and I should be able to play the piano under the influence as well as he was able to rap. I defended my position the best I could, but didn't have a real defined answer how the art of pianism is infinitely more complex and refined than the art of rap. Well, now I do.
I think the real argument should be that he could not rap as well while under the influence. Technically, language incorporates a much more complex brain function than simple motor skills, so it should be more difficult to rap under the influence than play piano under the influence, disregarding, of course, the state of intoxication. (After what your friend said he did, I would assume "heavily intoxicated", which has begun to affect more levels of the brain than simple motor skills.)

But, cranially-speaking, rapping is a more complex process than piano-playing because the former incorporates language, while the latter is more motor skills.

Perhaps a more proper stance would be to explain to your friend that, while speech is not among the first pathways affected by drugs and/or alcohol, simple motor skills are. So, while he can continue to speak effectively long after his simple motor skills are impaired, the ability to play the piano is affected immediately--as soon as these simple motor skills become impaired.

Now, I'm not sure how well your friend understands the concepts of all of that, but it might help you explain it a little better to him. And don't put him on the defensive by telling him rap is "simplistic" and classical music is "divine". Not only will it prevent your point from being heard, but (as pointed out above) rap is not "simplistic". ;\)
_________________________
Every day we are afforded a new chance. The problem with life is not that you run out of chances. In the end, what you run out of are days.

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#363723 - 09/06/05 02:35 PM Re: Proof that classical music is superior to every other genre
Deus ex Pianoforte Offline
Full Member

Registered: 04/28/04
Posts: 346
Loc: California
Right again, Derul!

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#363724 - 09/06/05 03:39 PM Re: Proof that classical music is superior to every other genre
snap_apple Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/21/03
Posts: 710
 Quote:
Originally posted by Deus ex Pianoforte:
I believe one of my main obstacles in trying to persuade others of my stance on this is that everyone wants to believe that human beings are much more complicated than they actually are. You want to believe that you are attracted to someone because they "stir something deep in your soul", or "connect with you on a spiritual level". But really when you put ego aside, humans are just like any other animal. Men are attracted to women with curvaceous hips because it signifies the ability to bear children. We're attracted to long hair because it signifies a healthy specimen. Large breasts for the ability to care for our young. Women are attracted to men with big muscles and broad shoulders because it demonstrates the ability to protect her and their offspring. I'm speaking generally now, you'll always find that anomaly of women that are turned out by scrawny bald men with high voices, and men that like bald 400-pound women. But it's all biological when you get right down to brass tacks. Again, we're talking PHYSICAL beauty now. Physical beauty is to sonata structure as inner beauty is to compelling melodies and captivating rhythms.
[/b]
Well, thats the thing...humans are very complex...what is beautiful is very complex. Sure there is a shallow, natural, instinctive aspect to what is beautiful on the surface...but, that all changes once personality gets involved. Just like in music, like you mentioned yourself...when inner beauty, the personality, comes in (compelling melodies and captivating rhythms) what is attractive on the surface changes...for better or worse.

And, with humans, personality shows itself in many ways, including facial expressions. We can tell if a person is arrogant, shy, confident, goofy, happy, etc just by the way they express themselves with their face, or by the way the walk. So even on the surface a beautiful person can become ugly or more attractive depending on the type of vibe they give off communicating through their face.

Now, it gets far more complex when you get to know a person. How they speak, what they have to say, how compatible they are with you...their definently is a very deep, spiritual connection that occurs after spending time with somebody.

This connection know doubt has a power to mask any physical imperfections. That's why you get people that say.... "how can she be with him...she's too good for him." well maybe she sees something in the person we can't...why? cause what is beautiful is very personal and is affected by many different things, especially if you've grown to like specific tastes.

And I believe that music is exactly the same way. What is beautiful in music changes from person to person from culture to culture from time to time and is defined by much deeper aspects then just structural perfection. Music is complex. People are complex. We aren't computers, these are the things that seperate us from machines.

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#363725 - 09/06/05 03:47 PM Re: Proof that classical music is superior to every other genre
snap_apple Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/21/03
Posts: 710
by the way your subject line is

"Proof that classical music is superior to every other genre"[/b]

...superiority and beauty are two totally different things...

I could be superior to a person...say a boss at a job...and be far more ugly and imperfect. I do not yet understand the correlation between the divine ratio theory and superiority.

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#363726 - 09/06/05 03:55 PM Re: Proof that classical music is superior to every other genre
Deus ex Pianoforte Offline
Full Member

Registered: 04/28/04
Posts: 346
Loc: California
 Quote:
Originally posted by snap_apple:
I do not yet understand the correlation between the divine ratio theory and superiority. [/b]
Well, my stance is that the Divine Proportion = beauty. Everyone has their own standards of music, but I rate good music based on its beauty. I may listen to Eminem and Snoop Dogg when I'm in a club, but that's only cause I'm wasted and just want to party. But if I really want music to move and inspire me, I'll listen to classical. So it looks like I should've revised my headline once again, to "Proof that classical music is the most beautiful of all the genres". \:D

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#363727 - 09/06/05 04:10 PM Re: Proof that classical music is superior to every other genre
virtuoso418 Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/29/03
Posts: 645
 Quote:
rapping is a more complex process than piano-playing because the former incorporates language, while the latter is more motor skills.

Perhaps a more proper stance would be to explain to your friend that, while speech is not among the first pathways affected by drugs and/or alcohol, simple motor skills are. So, while he can continue to speak effectively long after his simple motor skills are impaired, the ability to play the piano is affected immediately--as soon as these simple motor skills become impaired.
There are many variables that contribute to brain activity when contrasting rapping and piano. It depends on the deviations of degree to how the intensity of each activity is done. For example, to what degree of concentration is required for playing a piece and what particular piece. As for rapping, is he free-styling or just rehersing words again? (repetition or creativity)

But i think your aim was at a general view of simple motor and language fuctions.

When you play piano, you have factors involved neurologically. The pyramidal tract which serves as the major pathway to the central nervous system, interconnecting regions of the basal ganglia, and cerebellum. If you want real jargon(for you med students on here):
the basal ganglia's major receptive component is the striatum. the occulomotor nerve transmits part of motor activity via "motor circuit", the "occulomotor circuit", the "dorsolateral prefrontal circuit", the "lateral orbitofrontal circuit" and the "anterior cingulate circuit". Each particular circuit receives multiple corticostritate inputs that are progressively integrated in passage through the basal ganglia. Hence a more basic level of complexity.

Language is expressed through the frontal lobe for the most part. there are other various small parts that coincide with functionality. But language has a more direct connection, simply put. However, the complexity of language stimulates activity in the frontal regions by +- .007 volts per second and increases ten folds from there... if i remember correctly. But there is a rate calculation in which activity will require, or should i say, will be more complex than the other.

So rap's demanding cognitive functions may or may not surpass piano's. But it cannot be determined with such ambiguous scenarios.

 Quote:
But, cranially-speaking
Cranium refers to the skull, not neurological functions.

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#363728 - 09/06/05 04:32 PM Re: Proof that classical music is superior to every other genre
snap_apple Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/21/03
Posts: 710
 Quote:
Originally posted by Deus ex Pianoforte:
But if I really want music to move and inspire me, I'll listen to classical. So it looks like I should've revised my headline once again, to "Proof that classical music is the most beautiful of all the genres". \:D [/b]
So now...again I don't know too much about the divine ratio theory, but are we talking about all classical music from Bach to Barber or are talking about classical music...the first movement of Mozarts first sonata.

Cause it seems to me that these numbers won't work for most of the repertoire. Seems that in the classical repertoire that much of the music would be ugly or imperfect. I know that you mentioned the repertoire is litterd with examples, care to sight anymore.

Oh, and are there other factors that we need to take into consideration when dealing with music. Like you used the ratio of measures of the recap and the exposition. What about the development section? what about the other movements? what about meter changes? what about amount of notes per measure?

Are you sure this isn't a coincidence? what other proof can you offer that makes it not a coincidence?

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#363729 - 09/06/05 04:40 PM Re: Proof that classical music is superior to every other genre
swingal Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/31/05
Posts: 1094
Loc: England
I agree very much with Ted.

In my view which is a broad one and a long term one. I have been a music lover for over 60 years. It is what it does to my brain and my soul that attracts me. It is the affect of the sonic vibrations to my mind and my whole being. My reason for this wonderful medium and what it does to my senses.

I love Mozart and Chopin and George Gershwin, Irving Berlin and so on but not only their original composition but in the case of the final two I like musicians interpretation, particularly piano ineterpretations.

Art is a simple form of beauty to the eye and the ear but it is those of us fortunate in having the gift of appreciation of that art that are the greatest beneficaries.

Alan

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#363730 - 09/06/05 04:49 PM Re: Proof that classical music is superior to every other genre
derekrs Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/06/05
Posts: 115
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
 Quote:
Originally posted by Deus ex Pianoforte:
 Quote:
Originally posted by snap_apple:
I do not yet understand the correlation between the divine ratio theory and superiority. [/b]
Well, my stance is that the Divine Proportion = beauty. Everyone has their own standards of music, but I rate good music based on its beauty. I may listen to Eminem and Snoop Dogg when I'm in a club, but that's only cause I'm wasted and just want to party. But if I really want music to move and inspire me, I'll listen to classical. So it looks like I should've revised my headline once again, to "Proof that classical music is the most beautiful of all the genres". \:D [/b]
I would go a step further and replace "proof" and "classical music" to "evidence" and "Mozart's piano sonatas" respectively.

1. Proof i think is a bit strong. Evidence is more appropriate, as i feel for a proof you need more evidence, and i don't think you gave enough with the citation of that study on Mozart's piano sonatas. This leads to my reason for the second change in your statement.

2. The link you provided was to a study looking only at Mozart's piano sonatas and the occurance of this Golden Ratio. Yet despite this you come to a conclusion that this is proof (though I would say evidence) for Classical music. If a study was done on a good sample of classical music such as different composers and looking at all their music, and found the same occurance of this ratio, then we would have evidence that could be applied to classical music.
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#363731 - 09/06/05 11:08 PM Re: Proof that classical music is superior to every other genre
Deus ex Pianoforte Offline
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Registered: 04/28/04
Posts: 346
Loc: California
From my first post - "His first movement is 100 measures. The exposition is 38 measures. The recapitulation and development[/b] section contains 62 measures."

http://www.mcs.surrey.ac.uk/Personal/R.Knott/Fibonacci/fibInArt.html#music
Click on the "Fibonacci and Music" link on the left near the top for examples in Beethoven's Fifth, and links to books on the subject of the Divine Proportion in Bartok, Debussy, Schubert, Bach, and Satie. And yes, much of the music in the classical repertoire IS imperfect - the Golden Ratio doesn't guarantee beauty, it's just the foundation for it. Random notes that fits Phi won't be beautiful, but add a little melody here and there and you may have something. And no, I can't be sure it's a coincidence. I'd have to wait until time travel is invented and ask the Masters about that.

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#363732 - 09/07/05 12:54 AM Re: Proof that classical music is superior to every other genre
Derulux Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/06/05
Posts: 5321
Loc: Philadelphia
 Quote:
As for rapping, is he free-styling or just rehersing words again? (repetition or creativity)
Good point, but even still, the brain still has to recall the words in repetition. I think, for the example, it would only be fair to compare repetition to repetition, and creativity to creativity.

 Quote:
But i think your aim was at a general view of simple motor and language fuctions.
In general, yes. If what followed this statement is truly your understanding (and not a quick google, or similar search), then you definitely have a much deeper understanding of the brain than I do. Mine is very rudimentary, based on a couple 101 courses, two or three medical books, and my neuropsych friends who continually talk to me about their work (even though I generally fail to comprehend half of what they're saying without having it broken down into at least four syllable words :p ).

 Quote:
So rap's demanding cognitive functions may or may not surpass piano's. But it cannot be determined with such ambiguous scenarios.
This, I would whole-heartedly and readily agree to. (It was partially my point in countering Mr. Pianoforte's argument, but you have said it with a deeper understanding of brain function than I could accomplish.)

 Quote:
Cranium refers to the skull, not neurological functions.
Of course it is...such a homespun phrase, I'd hoped would have been recognized as genial comic relief. ;\)
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#363733 - 09/07/05 01:16 AM Re: Proof that classical music is superior to every other genre
derekrs Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/06/05
Posts: 115
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
 Quote:
Originally posted by Deus ex Pianoforte:
From my first post - "His first movement is 100 measures. The exposition is 38 measures. The recapitulation and development[/b] section contains 62 measures."

http://www.mcs.surrey.ac.uk/Personal/R.Knott/Fibonacci/fibInArt.html#music
Click on the "Fibonacci and Music" link on the left near the top for examples in Beethoven's Fifth, and links to books on the subject of the Divine Proportion in Bartok, Debussy, Schubert, Bach, and Satie. And yes, much of the music in the classical repertoire IS imperfect - the Golden Ratio doesn't guarantee beauty, it's just the foundation for it. Random notes that fits Phi won't be beautiful, but add a little melody here and there and you may have something. And no, I can't be sure it's a coincidence. I'd have to wait until time travel is invented and ask the Masters about that. [/b]
yay...some new evidence with your Fibonacci and Music link. I'm not going to check to see if what i read there is valid. Assuming that it is, my statement suggesting replacing classical music with Mozart's piano sonatas is probably no longer valid. With some of the examples given on that site (assuming they are valid) it seems fine to apply this to classical music in general. I still think this is evidence and not proof.

It may be interesting to test this by getting classical music without this occurance and music with it and having people judge the music in a double blind study. Anyone doing research in psychology or music here? Perhaps it's already been done somewhere and published in a journal.
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#363734 - 09/07/05 01:28 AM Re: Proof that classical music is superior to every other genre
Derulux Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/06/05
Posts: 5321
Loc: Philadelphia
 Quote:
Perhaps it's already been done somewhere and published in a journal.
It probably has been, but it would be interesting to carry out nonetheless. Considering the size of the human population, and its varying definitions of "beauty", and the considerable size of the repertoire of classical music (and the generations and stylistic identities it transcends), this would be a very difficult study to conduct. I think the definitions would be as interesting as the results, and indeed, the definitions could probably swing results one way or the other depending upon wording.

We could have given it a go in the forums (just to see whether or not there was enough "evidence" to "go to trial"), had this thread never popped up. But now too many people have been privy to what sort of study we'd be conducting, and it would no longer be "blind". Drat...
_________________________
Every day we are afforded a new chance. The problem with life is not that you run out of chances. In the end, what you run out of are days.

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#363735 - 09/07/05 01:30 AM Re: Proof that classical music is superior to every other genre
Deus ex Pianoforte Offline
Full Member

Registered: 04/28/04
Posts: 346
Loc: California
 Quote:
Originally posted by derekrs:
It may be interesting to test this by getting classical music without this occurance and music with it and having people judge the music in a double blind study. Anyone doing research in psychology or music here? Perhaps it's already been done somewhere and published in a journal. [/b]
That's actually a really good idea. If I had the means, resources, intelligence, and motivation I just might think about doing something like that. :p Oh well, maybe I'll toss it to my kid as a science fair project in a few decades.

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#363736 - 09/07/05 04:52 AM Re: Proof that classical music is superior to every other genre
snap_apple Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/21/03
Posts: 710
 Quote:
Originally posted by Deus ex Pianoforte:
From my first post - "His first movement is 100 measures. The exposition is 38 measures. The recapitulation and development[/b] section contains 62 measures." [/b]
my bad, didn't see the development part \:\)

 Quote:
Everyone has their own standards of music, but I rate good music based on its beauty....if I really want music to move and inspire me, I'll listen to classical.[/b]
I have a question for you though...do you really think music has to be beautiful to be good. That is what I am infering from your statement

"I rate good music based on it's beauty"

That tells me that if a piece is ugly in anyway or unbeautiful that it isn't as good or inspirational in your book.

But is that what music is about. I sometimes need ugly music...that's why I like Prokofiev or Ligeti or heavy metal. Cause it's dirty, it's raw it's harsh it's angry...and thats life. I like some music that is sad, quirky, reptitive, funny, relaxed...cause that's life.

Imperfections is life...imperfections can be the best things in the world. Uglieness is a part of life. To me much of great art deals with the agitation of life and it's biting imperfections.

So why must it be beautiful to be good?

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#363737 - 09/07/05 10:45 AM Re: Proof that classical music is superior to every other genre
virtuoso418 Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/29/03
Posts: 645
 Quote:
I think, for the example, it would only be fair to compare repetition to repetition, and creativity to creativity.
Heh, that would make things a lot easier.

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