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Hi,

I have a few questions about the Chopin Etudes.

1) firstly, is there a general consensus on which of the etudes is the hardest?

2) Which ones are more essential to learn than others?

3) Somebody on another thread mentioned how great pianists like Horowitz, Rubinstein and Paderwski could not play all of them. Where exactly are these greatest pianists quoted as having said that?


4) How may of the etudes have you learnt?

Many thanks in advance,

(3) Abram Chasins, in Speaking of Pianists, tells the story of someone (the manager of the Manhattan Steinway Hall, I think) commenting to Josef Hofmann that he would like to hear Hofmann play all of the etudes, and Hofmann responded that nobody could play them all. Godowsky was just about to record them all when he had his disabling stroke.

(1) The studies present differing technical (not to mention musical) problems. What's hard for one pianist may be easy (or, at least, not so hard) for another. Almost all the complete sets have some deficiency, and I think that the question of the qualities of the various recordings has been dealt with in another thread. I'm especially fond of Perahia and Zayas' sets. Orozco's is also impressive, but I haven't had time to listen to it that deeply. To my ear, the one least likely to be recorded well is Op 10 #2. That chromatic line is totally exposed, and the slightest irregularity is easily heard.

(4) zero, and at my advanced age, I think it's likely to remain at that number.

(2) One of the more professional pianists will have to weigh in on this one.

Palindrome offered the best answers to the 1st question. As to number 2, what do you mean by essential? Essential to what?

To number 3, Horowitz in Dubal's Evening's with Horowitz, talks about the etudes a lot and how how cannot play several of them. To number 4, I have attempted to learn the hardest ones and crashed and burned

MISERABLY haha

IMO the hardest are Op 25. 6 and Op. 25 11

Or Op. 10 2 as Palindrome said. They all present different levels of difficulty so it really matters where the individual is technically.

1) As Palimdrome stated, I think it depends on the pianist. From my experience, however, the etudes most likely to be considered the hardest are 10/2, 10/4, 25/6, 25/11, and 25/12. Others may dissagree though.

2) I don't know how to answer this. I suppose 10/12 could be considered very important for left hand development. If you're ever able to tackle 25/6, your thirds will greatly benefit.

3) Well, Rubinstein states in his autobiography that he isn't willing to play all of the etudes because he simply can't do them all justice.

4) I've played 10/12 and am working on 25/5.

Firstly, let me say that if you do a search for 'chopin etudes' you will find lots of threads that cover many aspects of the etudes. A google search produces more than you might expect as well.

1) No, in a word. There are some which are generally put at the top end - including 10/7, 10/10, 25/4, 25/11 etc.

2) Depends on your deficiencies. There is a guide http://www.pianosociety.com/index.php?id=37 (look near the bottom) that covers the technical aspects of the etudes.

3) The above guide mentions that Horowitz couldn't play one or more of the etudes. Other than that, i'm not sure.

4) Only one at the moment, but i'm working on a few more. I'm devoting almost all of my practise to them at the moment.

Good luck with learning any, if you were thinking of attempting them.

4. Learned 1st half of 25/9 (Butterfly) and decided I just don't like it well enough to put in the effort to learn the rest. Am about half way learning 10/12 (Revolutionary) and find it much more congenial. I anticipate it becoming a permanent part of my repetoire.

No one has mentioned Op. 10 No. 1 as one of the hardest. From talking to many people who have played them all, from trying them out myself, and from listening to several complete recordings of the etudes, I would rank them by GENERAL difficulty level in this order (the ones in brackets could switch order):

Op. 10: 2, 1, [4, 7], 8, 10, [5, 12], 11, 3, 9, 6
Op. 25: [6, 11, 10], 12, 8, 5, 3, 4, 2, 1, 7, 9

Combined: Hmmm... 10-2, 25-6, 25-11, 10-1, 25-10, 10-4, 10-7, 25-12, 25-8, 10-8, 25-5, 10-10, 25-4, 25-4, 10-5, 10-12,25-2, 25-1, 10-11, 25-7, 10-3, 25-9, 10-9, 10-6

That's looks pretty good. I've heard plenty of contradicting opinions, of course. I think Horowitz was the one who said that to play it perfectly as written, 25-10 is nearly impossible. Having said that, it's also one of the easiest etudes to fake simply by using more pedal and not holding the inner voices down for their entire duration. Some people would say the thirds is the hardest, but actually I've noticed there are a lot more people out there with very natural thirds. For them, that etude is not very difficult. I think there are fewer people with a natural technique for 10-2. Also, what makes the winterwind very difficult is endurance, I think, not necessarily as much technique (of course it is very technically challenging). Take any given page of the winterwind and learn it and it's not so bad. Putting them altogether is a different story. 10-1 is also a test in endurance. Without proper technique/training, your arm will fall off halfway through the piece. Some measures in 10-1 are nearly IMPOSSIBLE with the suggested fingering. Although Cziffra seems to be able to do them just fine: http://youtube.com/watch?v=pf2accwGEaU&search=piano%20etude

Also, some etudes I put lower in difficulty for me are actually very tough, like 10-11. Also, some people like to say 10-6 is the hardest to interpret. I might buy that, but just looking at its technical difficulty, you must put it as the easiest.

Of course this is all subjective, and my experience is different from all of yours. Some of these orders I'm not quite sure of, but I think it's a pretty good list. Feel free to revise it if you like.

when i mentioned about learning 10.2 to my teacher, i got a firmly 'NO' and he said that even some really good pianists wouldn't touch that one. so, i said how about playing it slowly, and he just replied, "there's no point..."

so, i guess this one is among the most difficult etudes, but i will try it anyway, slowly of course, and just treat it as an exercise and don't tell my teacher! btw, i only tried 1st 2 bars which are managable at slow tempo...

i learned only 10.9, but need to relearn it now.

1) I would think op. 10 no. 2, op. 10 no. 7, op. 10 no. 10, op. 10 no. 4, op. 25 no. 6, op. 25 no. 11, because these are the ones that sound like nothing when I try to sightread through them.

2)Depends on what technique you want to require. For arps, try op. 10 no. 1, op. 25 no. 12, op. 10 no. 8. For chromatics, op. 10/2. Etc. But I know many people play the Revolutionary (op. 10 no. 12)

3) No idea

4) 0

1) Not a general one, the etudes are different for everyone. I think 10/2, 10/7 and 25/10 (played as written) are amongst the hardest..

2) 10/10 - Chopin uses this technique quite a lot in his writing and I found it a useful bolster to my ability. However they are all 'essential' IMO.

3) I read that Horowitz couldn't play the 25/10 because of the middle notes - I might be wrong. And Kapell often complained about 10/2 in his diaries.

4) Op.10 - 1,3,5,6,9,10,12

1) Op.10 No.1, Op.10 No.4, Op.25 No.10 and Op.25 No.11 I think are generally considered to be the hardest but it does of course depend on your technique.

2) All of them . But specifically I'd go for the ones that encompas the most techniques in one study.

3) I believe Horowitz said he found Op.10 No.1 the hardest. As is the trend with my little bits of trivia, I have no idea where I heard this.

4) Ive learned the Revolutionary, which I'm now working on getting up to speed. Ive also nearly finished Op.10 No.3 and I'm planning on doing Op.10 No.9 next.

Dont quote me on this, but i heard somewhere/ someone say that op 10 no.1 is the most difficult. But id like to think it depends on the weakneses/strength of the pianist. If he/she is good at arpeggios then 10 1 might not be the most difficult..

edited to say: i think i heard it (no.3) from the same source as you, Bruce-san

Op.10 #1 is very tough if you can only reach an octave (as many people can) and may require some working with the fingering, but for us fortunate people with wide stretches, it's much more straight forwards!

1) general population of pianists would say 10/2, 25/6, 25/10, 10/7 and a bunch of others. For me though 10/2, 10/6, and 25/6 were hard.

2)the problems portrayed in 10/12 are apparent in some form or another in the of the op. 10 etudes. But I don't think that there is one absolutely essential etude that would significantly help with another.

3)Horowitz said the 10/1 was the most difficult, but then again that man talked alot. Kapell wrote in his journal regarding the "a minor etude" (10/2) and how he was trying to tackle it.

4)Op.10= 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 9, 11, 12
Op.25= 1, 11, 12
Post.= 1, 2, 3

While Op.10/1 and 10/2 are (to a discerning listener), tough to play really well, they are not all that difficult to crash through with a few practices - and definitely worth the effort. Your sight-reading improves dramatically after these etudes. Large stretches become second nature after 10/1, and after 10/2 you never seem to run out of fingers!! Once you reach 5, just cross over 3 to a black note and keep running up the scale! Beethoven would be proud. (Not).

I used to think Op.25/6 was impossible, but after two weeks practising third trills on every surface I can find it now seems much more doable (don't need to be at a piano, the desk at work is just fine to get the finger movement up to speed).

Op.10/4 is tremendously frustrating as you speed it up, especially the bars with the spaced out chords and the middle section.

Still think 25/11 is impossible...

signa :

If your teacher told you there is "no point" to your learning this Etude because he believes you'll never bring it up to performance level, he may have a point. I don't agree with him, however, that there's "no point" in practicing this exercise slowly. Using this Etude as a flexibility exercise for fingers 3, 4, and 5 of the RH is very useful.

Regards,

I agree most vigorously and robustly with Bruce on this; there is much to be learned from playing pieces which are beyond one's current ability, but a more leisurely pace; especially those written as studies, and doubly especially for Op10/2.

Even at half-speed this is very useful for practicing moving thumb/3/4/5 under/over each other as necessary. If one can then increase the speed towards the marked tempo whilst maintaining evenness and legato, then all power to your elbow[1]; if not, it's still a worthwhile exercise IMO at much slower speeds.

- Michael B.
[1] Well, all parts of your entire right arm really .

I sure newton wanted to know which of them that are likely to benefit your technique the most when playing pieces, not studies. One etude I WOULDN'T list as essential would perhaps be op 10 no 5 for instance (I may be wrong, not having studied it myself), while op 10 no 3 would be great for learning legato playing, syncopation and, to a certain extent, polyphonic playing. Someone who has practiced op 10 no 7 (double-notes) will have little trouble in learning the last two pages of the 2nd ballade.

I think that a lot of pianists suffer from thinking that they absolutely NEED to play the etudes at the speed that they are supposed to be played. Why? The etudes are there to help you with different technical problems, which should be practiced slowly for a long time, before speeding up. An old classmate of mine who only played fast pieces, nothing else, learned op 10 no 4 and played it almost in tempo, but he NEVER practiced it slowly. In the end, he didn't get better at all and he had no time to consider the interpretation of the piece since he just wanted to play it fast... I have studied several etudes, but have only performed one in public (in tempo, of course! ). While I was studying in Poland, my teacher often pointed out that he didn't care too much about if I could play the etude as I would on a concert, but he wanted me to concentrate on what I could learn from it, technically (and musically, of course).


To answer your 4th question, I have studied: op 10 no 1 (the only one I've performed on concert), 4, 7, 9 (working on it now) and 12. From op 25, I've only practiced some on no 1. I have also practiced op 10 no 2, but in extremely slow tempo.

thanks BruceD for encouragement! i guess that my teacher's main concern about this etude is how dangerous it would be by playing it inproperly, and he said it's very hard on RH in fast tempo. but i am trying it slowly now and let my right wrist be very supple and play everything in very light touch, which i think works so far, and with 3,4,5 fingerings to the 1st few bars, i don't even feel very awkward at all but feel the fingers are almost always comfortably laying at the right place after each 16 note group. i am glad even that i have no problem playing it slowly.

That sounds like good advice to me! There is so much technique that one can develop if one studies, intelligently, the Etudes of Chopin. Granted, there's little point in trying to play (at) them if your technique is that of a beginner, but if you have reached a moderately advanced stage in your technique I think there's much to be gained from working on some of the Chopin Etudes.

Regards,